Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[EddieLarkin]

Yes, the idea that every TT title belongs in the bargain bin is rubbish. Criterion is prepping Fritz Lang's Ministry of Fear for release next month, it is essentially barebones and thus at their lower price point of $30. The Big Heat, another Lang noir and typically considered the superior film, was released by TT for $30 too. It could have easily been Criterion instead.

[PuppetMasterBlu]

Originally Posted by ROclockCK

...at least I haven't heard it mentioned anywhere else. Back in mid-December on TT's Release Schedule page Nick Redman posted the following response to a question about porting the commentaries for Christine:



Would that be like before, for the first 100 orders only? Or for free if you purchase $XXX amount of TT product? Or via some kind of random draw? Or only if you show up at a special screening in L.A. with Keith Gordon in attendance?

February 15th at 4:00pm EST could get rather 'interesting'...again.

Ohh dear lord.

[SpartanIre]

Originally Posted by ROclockCK

...at least I haven't heard it mentioned anywhere else. Back in mid-December on TT's Release Schedule page Nick Redman posted the following response to a question about porting the commentaries for Christine:



Would that be like before, for the first 100 orders only? Or for free if you purchase $XXX amount of TT product? Or via some kind of random draw? Or only if you show up at a special screening in L.A. with Keith Gordon in attendance?

February 15th at 4:00pm EST could get rather 'interesting'...again.

Uh-oh, Here we go again...

[ROclockCK]

Originally Posted by SpartanIre

Uh-oh, Here we go again...

Not necessarily SpartanIre. It might simply be a "signing opportunity", like they had for The Blue Lagoon via special screening in L.A. That wouldn't kill SAE's Amazon hosts, but it would limit the number of folks who could get one autographed.

[tama]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

Yes, the idea that every TT title belongs in the bargain bin is rubbish. Criterion is prepping Fritz Lang's Ministry of Fear for release next month, it is essentially barebones and thus at their lower price point of $30. The Big Heat, another Lang noir and typically considered the superior film, was released by TT for $30 too. It could have easily been Criterion instead.

23.99 currently on amazon

And I agree The Big Heat is the superior film with a top notch video treatment from Sony worth the asking price.

[jcs913]

Originally Posted by ROclockCK

And yet you felt 'qualified' to state the following jcs913?:

I merely read what you wrote sir. And frankly, it dripped with disdain for not only TT "collectors" (i.e. we couldn't possibly be passionately interested in any of these movies, merely their limited collectibility). But also, specifically, and more telling, was your rather snobbish dismissal of anyone's preference for Fright Night over The Third Man as being inherently "laughable".

How's the air up there bud?

ROCK, your missing the point. TT was attacked by someone that was unhappy with their $30 price point, no? My point was simply that they are a boutique label that caters to collectors, which several of you guys disagree or seem to feel offended by me saying that. I believe that is why they charge $30 for their releases, as traditionally collectors will pay more for something that is a 'limited edition'. I believe that you and others genuinely love the films they put out, but the simple question is; Do you love all of them and believe that all of them have that value of $30? Because if you do not, even for one release, then simply, why own it?
I do own 2 releases, simply because I enjoy the films. I do not think they are 'worth' $30. But that's the way TT works, so if you want the release, you have to pay it. I think that was what the guy was complaining about originally, no?

[jcs913]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

Yes, the idea that every TT title belongs in the bargain bin is rubbish. Criterion is prepping Fritz Lang's Ministry of Fear for release next month, it is essentially barebones and thus at their lower price point of $30. The Big Heat, another Lang noir and typically considered the superior film, was released by TT for $30 too. It could have easily been Criterion instead.

I disagree, as MSRP on TT titles are $30, FIRM. Kino and especially Olive have put out many more films that are generally more respected and liked and yet retailers (importcds) sell them for less than $15. Criterion releases can also be had for $20 or less at times. That is where the market is at. I think that was why that guy was unhappy about the prices a page or so ago. IMO, $30 on a title is to simply capitaliize on the fact that their releases are 'limited editions' and they know that collectors will pay that. Whether or not you or the others are a 'collector' has nothing to do with my posts, but rather, my belief in what TT's business model is.

[EddieLarkin]

Originally Posted by jcs913

I disagree, as MSRP on TT titles are $30, FIRM. Kino and especially Olive have put out many more films that are generally more respected and liked and yet retailers (importcds) sell them for less than $15. Criterion releases can also be had for $20 or less at times. That is where the market is at. I think that was why that guy was unhappy about the prices a page or so ago. IMO, $30 on a title is to simply capitaliize on the fact that their releases are 'limited editions' and they know that collectors will pay that. Whether or not you or the others are a 'collector' has nothing to do with my posts, but rather, my belief in what TT's business model is.

Correct, but it's the MSRP that reflects what the company values the disc at. Criterion and Twilight Time value their Lang noir titles the same. The reason you can get Criterion cheaper is due to the discounts places like Amazon can apply, because they buy bulk copies whole sale from the distributor.

Twilight Time cannot do this for Amazon because they have a small, limited stock. They have a small, limited stock because they consist of two film fans putting up their own cash for the rights to print a small amount. They would not be able to afford these rights (or I imagine, the manufacturing costs) if they wanted to print 50,000 copies, so Amazon could buy in bulk and sell them for $15.

It is not the case that TT artificially produce a small stock so they can charge a high price and rip off naive collectors. They produce a small stock because that is all they can afford. So it's either the disc for $30, or not at all. What's to complain about?

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by jcs913

ROCK, your missing the point. TT was attacked by someone that was unhappy with their $30 price point, no? My point was simply that they are a boutique label that caters to collectors, which several of you guys disagree or seem to feel offended by me saying that. I believe that is why they charge $30 for their releases, as traditionally collectors will pay more for something that is a 'limited edition'. I believe that you and others genuinely love the films they put out, but the simple question is; Do you love all of them and believe that all of them have that value of $30? Because if you do not, even for one release, then simply, why own it?
I do own 2 releases, simply because I enjoy the films. I do not think they are 'worth' $30. But that's the way TT works, so if you want the release, you have to pay it. I think that was what the guy was complaining about originally, no?

But what's truly special about their releases that make them collector quality? There are only two potential things I can think of:

1) the limited edition (which is artificially created by the way) which has nothing special about it. The releases aren't individually numbered and even if they were if people are purchasing them simply because of the limited nature of the release then they're no longer purchasing it because they like the movie. They're simply collecting just to collect in which case they'd buy just about any movie released in this fashion.

2) The isolated score track which is the only thing which makes these releases unique. But this won't appeal to everyone.

Other than that they're just like any other studio release (not speaking about Mill Creek or EBHE). I'm glad to see TT releasing titles which might not have been released otherwise but IMHO there's nothing collector about them.

[NoirFan]

Originally Posted by rdodolak

1) the limited edition (which is artificially created by the way)

Wouldn't any limited edition be 'artificially created'? If it isn't intentionally limited, then it isn't limited at all, unless we're talking about a title that eventually goes OOP because the company no longer has the rights to it.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

Yes, the idea that every TT title belongs in the bargain bin is rubbish. Criterion is prepping Fritz Lang's Ministry of Fear for release next month, it is essentially barebones and thus at their lower price point of $30. The Big Heat, another Lang noir and typically considered the superior film, was released by TT for $30 too. It could have easily been Criterion instead.

SRP comparisons are rather pointless, aren't they?

You can currently preorder Ministry of Fear direct from Criterion for $23.96 and from Amazon for $23.99. And that's the high point for Ministry of Fear. Barnes and Noble and Criterion routinely have 50% sales and even Amazon regularly offers select Criterions for about half SRP.

Aren't those prices the relevant comparisons?

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by NoirFan

Wouldn't any limited edition be 'artificially created'? If it isn't intentionally limited, then it isn't limited at all, unless we're talking about a title that eventually goes OOP because the company no longer has the rights to it.

Yes, you're quite right and IMO the "limited" nature of any limited release doesn't make them any more special than a normal release. That is unless you're simply collecting to collect.

[EddieLarkin]

Originally Posted by octagon

SRP comparisons are rather pointless, aren't they?

You can currently preorder Ministry of Fear direct from Criterion for $23.96 and from Amazon for $23.99. And that's the high point for Ministry of Fear. Barnes and Noble and Criterion routinely have 50% sales and even Amazon regularly offers select Criterions for about half SRP.

Aren't those prices the relevant comparisons?

Yeah, but surely you realise TT titles would be priced and discounted in exactly the same way if they produced enough copies that the big sellers could buy in bulk? That is what is required, a big ass batch of Blu-rays that Amazon can buy a big chunk of at a wholesale price. That's how you get your $15 Blu-ray. How is TT to achieve this if they don't have the funds?

[octagon]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

Yeah, but surely you realise TT titles would be priced and discounted in exactly the same way if they produced enough copies that the big sellers could buy in bulk? That is what is required, a big ass batch of Blu-rays that Amazon can buy a big chunk of at a wholesale price. That's how you get your $15 Blu-ray. How is TT to achieve this if they don't have the funds?

Twilight Time wasn't forced by economic necessity into this limited edition model. Other smaller companies (Olive, Image, Kino, Oscilloscope) seem to be doing okay without limiting their output to small, fixed runs. The limited edition approach is a choice on the part of Twilight Time.

And that's fine. I'm not criticizing their model here.

I'm simply saying that if you want to compare their prices to other distributers you should compare actual prices and not meaningless placeholders.

[EddieLarkin]

Originally Posted by octagon

Twilight Time wasn't forced by economic necessity into this limited edition model. Other smaller companies (Olive, Image, Kino, Oscilloscope) seem to be doing okay without limiting their output to small, fixed runs. The limited edition approach is a choice on the part of Twilight Time.

And that's fine. I'm not criticizing their model here.

I'm simply saying that if you want to compare their prices to other distributers you should compare actual prices and not meaningless placeholders.

Image and Kino have been around for decades and are not "small" companies. Not when you're stacking them up against TT anyway. Olive? That one is a strange anomaly. The fact they produce a huge output, do their own masters and recently their own transfers(!) suggests a pretty big cash flow. Perhaps Paramount fund them partially and take a cut of the profits? I dunno.

Maybe Flicker Alley is a more appropriate comparison? Regardless, TT said they were forced into this model. It's your right to think they're lying to further dupe us into supporting them. I don't think they are.

[OrlandoEastwood]

I think it's rediculous. How much was the deal with Sony that means that they have sell copies at $30 a pop? I was thinking of going the limited edition and only printing a few thousand copies of Nosferatu, but, eh... $20 a copy is fine.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

Regardless, TT said they were forced into this model. It's your right to think they're lying to further dupe us into supporting them. I don't think they are.

http://www.kqek.com/exclusives/Exclu...ightTime_2.htm

Mark R. Hasan: With studios cutting back on the release of older titles, I’m curious if you find Twilight Time’s ‘timing’ has been ideal in tapping into the classic film collector demand the studios have largely abandoned?

Nick Redman: You could say that was a very important aspect to Twilight Time’s [TT] starting. I don’t think we could’ve started TT had the studios been doing the same thing today that they were doing in 2007.

At Fox, where I’ve been involved since the early nineties running the catalog music restoration program (which is ongoing), we pioneered the limited edition market, and we’ve also continued working with Fox Home Entertainment over the years doing isolated scores, commentary tracks, all kinds of things to tie-in with Fox Home Ent.

At the end of 2010, it was becoming apparent that Fox, like every other studio, was completely dropping out of the catalogue DVD business, and so it seemed logical to go to them and say ‘Look, you know what we’ve been doing with limited editions soundtracks for the past couple of decades. Why don’t we have a go at doing it with DVDs?’ and that’s how it began.

[ambient_indie]

I buy Twilight Time titles. My only critique is I wish their contracts with the studios allowed new exclusive extras to their releases besides the isolated score. Then the Twilight Time discs would be worth owning once a new format dominates the market.

I still have DVDs to movies I've double dipped on blu-ray because of the exclusive extras. Even an audio commentary is worth it or a visual essay on the making of the film. Something more to make these releases collectables. I don't own the Criterion edition of the Killer for it's picture quality

Anyway, my two cents, from a fan. At least there's the isolated score.

[ROclockCK]

Originally Posted by jcs913

I believe that you and others genuinely love the films they put out, but the simple question is; Do you love all of them and believe that all of them have that value of $30? Because if you do not, even for one release, then simply, why own it?

Yes I do "love all of them" jcs913, but not for the reasons that might immediately leap to mind:

1. I love that they are there at all. Some of these TT titles, especially from the Fox library, are finally seeing their first home video release ever...others not since being crudely scanned for 60s network TV and VHS...and still others not since the Laserdisc days, previously letterboxed-only and not OAR. By my off-the-top count, the list of TT Blu-rays that did not receive even a single R1 DVD release is a cool dozen or more by now...they have been rescuing many of these formerly lost-in-the-vault movies from the 'Scope era beautifully (and thoughtfully)...stuff I'd previously only read about. Even their DVDs have been welcome since none of these pictures had an R1 release from the home label, or more importantly, any other licensee.

2. I love movie soundtracks, and TT has been a breathtaking showcase for deep vault ISTs from the likes of Bernard Herrmann, Hugo Friedhofer, Alex North, Jerry Goldsmith, and Henry Mancini. For some of these titles, I cherish the IST as much or more than the actual movie. In the case of The Sound and the Fury it was great to finally put a "face" to an already familiar "voice"...Alex North's magnificent score has been in my collection since the 70s on vinyl, and yet I had never actually seen the source film. Now I have it on a Blu-ray in OAR together with its long cherished score, which I have already listened to isolated 3 times.

3. I love the Sony titles because TT seems to have a tap into their latest and best transfers, many of which are from 4k sources with state of the art mastering. Mill Creek certainly didn't get their volume-peddler mitts on the 4k Bye Bye Birdie, Blue Lagoon, or Fright Night...soon to be joined by others, which might possibly include Major Dundee (TT admitted they waited for Sony's rework), and perhaps even Christine (unconfirmed, but I'd give it better than coin flip odds of being from a recent 4k rescan, like Fright Night). As for Criterion, they pick and choose from American titles with world cinema "importance" in mind...and most of this stuff just isn't tony enough to fit comfortably within 'The Collection'. H3ll would be a skating rink before you'd see them touch any of these less serious 'movie-movie' titles, regardless of their AQ and PQ specs.

4. I love the people behind this label. They have experience, savvy, and uncommon class. And at heart, they're just big 'ole movie fans themselves...which is why I'm so intrigued by what they decide to showcase this way...it's like someone looked into my own library to see what has been missing, or somehow read my mind. I just feel very comfortable with any product team that recognizes the worth in something like Experiment in Terror, or Rapture, or Pony Soldier, and is willing to front the hard dough to take a fly with it.

If I seem like a TT cheerleader at times, it's because this label so often mirrors my own eclectic tastes in vintage cinema. As far as deep catalogue Blu-ray goes, TT is no longer the 'only game in town', but they are releasing The Only Game In Town, a movie I never thought I'd live to even see, since its been a total MIA on home video to date. I don't even care if I love or hate the damn thing. I just want to finally see it, and will be able to now thanks to the funky, arcane tastes of the TT gang. Worst case scenario: Maurice Jarre's IST will become yet another interesting addition to my score collection.

Originally Posted by jcs913

I do own 2 releases, simply because I enjoy the films. I do not think they are 'worth' $30. But that's the way TT works, so if you want the release, you have to pay it. I think that was what the guy was complaining about originally, no?

Well if so, I missed that, and apologize jcs913. It was just your tone regarding the "collectibility" thing...I mean, even if these movies weren't limited to 3000, I would still be buying them.

[ROclockCK]

Originally Posted by rdodolak

But what's truly special about their releases that make them collector quality? There are only two potential things I can think of:

1) the limited edition (which is artificially created by the way) which has nothing special about it. The releases aren't individually numbered and even if they were if people are purchasing them simply because of the limited nature of the release then they're no longer purchasing it because they like the movie. They're simply collecting just to collect in which case they'd buy just about any movie released in this fashion.

2) The isolated score track which is the only thing which makes these releases unique. But this won't appeal to everyone.

Other than that they're just like any other studio release (not speaking about Mill Creek or EBHE). I'm glad to see TT releasing titles which might not have been released otherwise but IMHO there's nothing collector about them.

I would add...

3) Julie Kirgo's thoughtful, savvy, and fun essays reproduced in a *gasp* actual 4 to 8 page insert booklet.