Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[RBBrittain]

Originally Posted by onetet

There seem to be two things that can start an instant fight among blu-ray collectors:
1)Say "what's the point of slipcovers?"
2)Say the words "Twilight Time"

they're the BD equivalent of bringing up Israel-Palestine or abortion at a cocktail party.

Twilight Time itself isn't the problem; it's studios abusing the TT model. TT should be devoted to obscure releases (mostly from the classic era) that would never see the light of day on DVD, much less BD, if not for companies like TT. Instead, the studios are sending it better-known releases that more than 3,000 people would buy IF properly handled, but some Hollywood bean-counter decided would make the studio more money in super-limited BD release. I don't blame TT for accepting what the studios give it; I blame the studios, especially Sony, for giving them to TT at all. I'm still hoping against hope that Sony will pull Oliver! from the TT schedule and send it to any other distributor -- itself, Criterion, Olive, even Mill Creek or Echo Bridge.

[cmleidi]

I don't understand the criticism about the limited BD releases. If most of them are not selling out, why does it matter to a potential buyer if something is a limited release? I can see being upset that a film like STEEL MAGNOLIAS is taking the place of a more obscure film, but just on a selection level, I don't see why a limited release would be annoying unless people are more annoyed by the cost of the Twilight time blu-rays.

[Musicguy]

Originally Posted by RBBrittain

Twilight Time itself isn't the problem; it's studios abusing the TT model. TT should be devoted to obscure releases (mostly from the classic era) that would never see the light of day on DVD, much less BD, if not for companies like TT. Instead, the studios are sending it better-known releases that more than 3,000 people would buy IF properly handled, but some Hollywood bean-counter decided would make the studio more money in super-limited BD release. I don't blame TT for accepting what the studios give it; I blame the studios, especially Sony, for giving them to TT at all. I'm still hoping against hope that Sony will pull Oliver! from the TT schedule and send it to any other distributor -- itself, Criterion, Olive, even Mill Creek or Echo Bridge.

Why give it to Olive, Mill Creek or Echo Bridge? Twilight gives us extras, those companies don't. Twilight has given us some really good looking titles plus we get the much desired (by me anyway) isolated score! Does Olive press more than 3,000 units? Plus you can't find Olive titles at the B&M stores, most catalog is now only available on-line. Barnes and Noble is the only retailer left who carries some catalog titles and they aren't discounted the way Amazon discounts them.

"Oliver!" is available region free from Germany in a great looking transfer, so you can always purchase that if TT sells out

Mill Creek...really?

[Seymour]

Originally Posted by RBBrittain

I'm still hoping against hope that Sony will pull Oliver! from the TT schedule and send it to any other distributor -- itself, Criterion, Olive, even Mill Creek or Echo Bridge.

Sony doesn't license stuff out to Olive or Echo Bridge, and Mill Creek would almost certainly release it as a double feature. No thanks.

Obviously, Sony has no interest in releasing it themselves, otherwise why would they offer it to Twilight Time in the first place? The fact is, the decision makers over at Sony like Twilight Time, and their business model.

Not much you can do, unless you want to grab the UK version. Incidentally, the UK BD actually comes out before the TT release, and the preorder price is pretty sweet.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Oliver-Blu-ray/dp/B00BAQZFHG?SubscriptionId=AKIAIY4YSQJMFDJATNBA&tag =bluraycom-21&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creative ASIN=B00BAQZFHG&m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE

[fitprod]

Originally Posted by cmleidi

I don't see why a limited release would be annoying unless people are more annoyed by the cost of the Twilight time blu-rays.

THIS

Most of the people *****ing don't care about the limited run, they're more pissed because they aren't $5.00. (And that's the whole problem with trying to sell most catalog on Blu-ray...)

Twilight Time has only had 9 total sell outs up to this point, and outside of Fright Night, Night of the Living Dead, Christine and Body Double, most of the titles took months or years to sell out.

fitprod

[Seymour]

Originally Posted by fitprod

Fright Night, Night of the Living Dead, Christine

These are literally the only titles that people complain about, when they're complaining about TT's limited edition BDs. Titles like As Good as It Gets and Sleepless in Seattle, people complain specifically about the cost.

[Brad1963]

You all need to blame SONY not Twilight Time.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by Musicguy

Why give it to Olive, Mill Creek or Echo Bridge? Twilight gives us extras, those companies don't. Twilight has given us some really good looking titles plus we get the much desired (by me anyway) isolated score! Does Olive press more than 3,000 units? Plus you can't find Olive titles at the B&M stores, most catalog is now only available on-line. Barnes and Noble is the only retailer left who carries some catalog titles and they aren't discounted the way Amazon discounts them.

"Oliver!" is available region free from Germany in a great looking transfer, so you can always purchase that if TT sells out

Mill Creek...really?

Sony used to also license titles to Image (maybe they still do) and in most cases the special features carried over and they could be found for about $10 per title. Steel Magnolias and As Good As It Gets are pretty mainstream titles and it seems, to me, the kind of titles that get bought by soccer moms at Wal-Mart, not hardcore collectors on the net. The average person does not know about Twilight Time or how and where to order their titles. I find it hard to believe that Sony wouldn't be able to sell more than 3000 copies each of those titles if they were in stores. Sony just seems to have given up on selling library titles and are licensing all of their stuff to indy distributors, no matter its stature.

[Musicguy]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

Sony used to also license titles to Image (maybe they still do) and in most cases the special features carried over and they could be found for about $10 per title. Steel Magnolias and As Good As It Gets are pretty mainstream titles and it seems, to me, the kind of titles that get bought by soccer moms at Wal-Mart, not hardcore collectors on the net. The average person does not know about Twilight Time or how and where to order their titles. I find it hard to believe that Sony wouldn't be able to sell more than 3000 copies each of those titles if they were in stores. Sony just seems to have given up on selling library titles and are licensing all of their stuff to indy distributors, no matter its stature.

most stores no longer carry catalog titles. Best Buy, Target and Walmart (basically all that's left - only carry the top new releases and a few classics like "The Wizard of Oz) Barnes and Noble has some catalog but they are expensive and not all store's carry video. Maybe if Twilight does a deal with Amazon they would sell more - but Amazon usually discounts and Twilight can't afford to do that just yet. Sony has no desire to sell their catalog themselves anymore so if you want a Sony title you have to pay more. Keep in mind many Twilight Time titles wouldn't be released in the 1st place because they won't even sell 3,000

[rock, stone]

Originally Posted by cmleidi

I don't understand the criticism about the limited BD releases. If most of them are not selling out, why does it matter to a potential buyer if something is a limited release? I can see being upset that a film like STEEL MAGNOLIAS is taking the place of a more obscure film, but just on a selection level, I don't see why a limited release would be annoying unless people are more annoyed by the cost of the Twilight time blu-rays.

I think there are a lot of different things that have all contributed to the negative feelings people have for TT.

First and foremost, the first time a lot of people seem to have heard about TT is after something like Fright Night had already sold out. Since they are basically only known about through word of mouth and the occasional news item on this website, it isn't crazy for newcomers to feel left out of the loop and vent their frustrations.

After that, there is the price point. A lot of people who are likely to buy TT titles are enthusiasts who have more passion for film than disposable income. They are used to the idea that a little patience and luck will be enough to get them a decent deal on most titles. Not $5 like hyperbolists claim, but somewhere under $20 isn't unreasonable to expect.

But the fact that they have put a stranglehold on availability and distribution means there just aren't options, which many consumers resent.

There is also, with the earlier releases, a lack of detail and refinement to the overall presentation. No extras, no subs, not even chapter stops, if the quality of the transfers wasn't so strong and the fact there was an insert, they could practically look like bootlegs. The addition of the isolated score appealed to such a small, specific demographic I think a lot of already irritated customers didn't even know what to think about it. It all made the "premium" price harder to swallow.

Add to that, TT's responses to criticism whether over the top or not, was a general (and not without its charm) "then don't buy it, it is this or nothing. Blu ray is dying anyway".

Lastly, (and this is what personally did my head in on the subject of TT) was that a core group on the message boards became such staunch defenders of the company, they would shout down even the slightest whiff of criticism with the screaming weight of a thousand suns.

I once posted a understated and positive comment about one of my TT discs, and was greeted by half a page of how I couldn't appreciate the "gift" and "sumptuous package" that TT had allowed me to purchase. It was straight up crazy town for a while.

All that said, TT have seriously upped their game this year. They are what they are, but it is still hard to give them too much credit. Due to their pre-existing connections at the studios and their "set it and forget it" contracts that are designed to appeal to licensing executives, they get to cherry pick the best of other people's transfers and pass the savings onto us.

Whether or not any other companies' releases of the material would be better, worse, or exist at all is all just message board guesswork.

[Musicguy]

You must remember TT is very small group of people putting out product, they don't have the staff or resources that image entertainment has. It's really just a handful of people who know what they're doing and trying to fill a need where Sony refuses to do so. Every title they license was paid through the owner's pockets - which is why they limited it to 3,000 - they couldn't afford more. They aren't big enough yet to compete with the majors. Sony could give them a break - but Sony wants to make money too. They're doing quite well for a start up.

Image has been around since the 80's when they were in laser disc (they started as an adult film business) Laserdiscs used to cost anywhere from $30 to $40 per title and that was in the 1980's (Some as high as $90 through Fox)

Criterion is also a small company and they charge $30 - $40 per title (they've also been around now for over 30 years, but I remember buying their laserdics for $70 - $125 in the 1980s. Sell through prices were for the majors who sold millions of units of the latest hit film (catalog titles could then coast on the sales of those blockbusters)

[Musicguy]

Before TT, Image released Sony titles such as "Awakenings" and "The Fisher King" - there must have been a reason why they weren't offered "Christine" and "Fright Night" which went instead to TT. Olive's prices are just as high.

[oildude]

Originally Posted by Musicguy

You must remember TT is very small group of people putting out product, they don't have the staff or resources that image entertainment has. It's really just a handful of people who know what they're doing and trying to fill a need where Sony refuses to do so. Every title they license was paid through the owner's pockets - which is why they limited it to 3,000 - they couldn't afford more. They aren't big enough yet to compete with the majors. Sony could give them a break - but Sony wants to make money too. They're doing quite well for a start up.

Really? Or could it actually be that the 3000 limit is based on a number they ported over from their days of dealing in limited release soundtracks. Three thousand was what they had determined for limited soundtrack releases from the late 1990s, so that was their point of reference. They were used to that number. For a long time, some people - including me - bought into the unfounded "fact" (rumor) started by a few here that the 3000 limit was due to something called the "magazine rate" for artist's residuals, which is small runs of around 3000 and no other payouts for royalties, etc. The magazine rate as a basis isn't true at all, as it turns out, and TT had never claimed it as a reason anyway. Just more internet babble passed along as actual knowledge.

As rock, stone points out, TT has definitely upped their game in terms of effort from a year ago. I am grateful we are getting many of these catalog films released in high definition. Rapture is what made me a fan. I have every TT blu-ray release to date (a streak that will come to an end with Mindwarp, however). But it is two years later, and I am not drinking the kool-aid any more. Artificially limiting the market for many of these films to an arbitrary 3000 for three years is what rubs many people the wrong way. And they have legitimate reasons for expressing their concerns about TT while still being fans of the films. They don't deserve to be pounced on by TT fanatics with statements like they are just a bunch of whiners because these won't be $10 in a few months.

TT is a small company bringing us great catalog films, and I will continue to support them. I will support any company delivering a quality product of the classic films I love. But TT is not doing anything particularly special. Olive would do just as good a job with the transfers if Sony were working with them, or Shout, or Image, or whoever. Ultimately, the fault is with Sony USA for choosing to hand over many titles which have a fan base far beyond 3000 units for three years.

[oildude]

Originally Posted by Musicguy

Before TT, Image released Sony titles such as "Awakenings" and "The Fisher King" - there must have been a reason why they weren't offered "Christine" and "Fright Night" which went instead to TT. Olive's prices are just as high.

You need to shop around a bit.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Musicguy

Criterion is also a small company and they charge $30 - $40 per title...

No, actually they don't. If one orders directly from Criterion their everyday prices are $24 - $32 per title and a couple times a year they knock that down to $15 - $20 per title. And that's not even getting into what Amazon and Barnes and Noble charge.

If you're paying $30 - $40 per Criterion you're doing it wrong.

[EffenBlue]

Originally Posted by oildude

Artificially limiting the market for many of these films to an arbitrary 3000 for three years is what rubs many people the wrong way. And they have legitimate reasons for expressing their concerns about TT while still being fans of the films. They don't deserve to be pounced on by TT fanatics with statements like they are just a bunch of whiners because these won't be $10 in a few months.

You would be right except the price is the major complaint, followed by the lack of extras while charging $30. Other than Night of the Living Dead (which isn't anywhere as bad as it has been made out to be), there haven't been many major complaints about the transfers they are given.

The prevailing comment around this forum about TT releases is that if the price were less than $15 then they would buy it, but they're not paying $30 for a catalog title. So if there are other legitimate reasons other than price I would love to hear them.

Then again, it doesn't really matter. If it's more than you're willing to pay for whatever reason, then it's more than your willing to pay; that's your right as a consumer. Constantly complaining about $30 (not you specifically) to a blu-ray anime fan where a 40% off sale gets you a sale price of $41.99 tends to sound a bit irritating.

[Musicguy]

Originally Posted by octagon

No, actually they don't. If one orders directly from Criterion their everyday prices are $24 - $32 per title and a couple times a year they knock that down to $15 - $20 per title. And that's not even getting into what Amazon and Barnes and Noble charge.

If you're paying $30 - $40 per Criterion you're doing it wrong.

Thanks, I didn't know going directly through Criterion was cheaper!

[cmleidi]

Originally Posted by rock, stone

First and foremost, the first time a lot of people seem to have heard about TT is after something like Fright Night had already sold out. Since they are basically only known about through word of mouth and the occasional news item on this website, it isn't crazy for newcomers to feel left out of the loop and vent their frustrations.

I don't understand why someone would be annoyed they didn't know about a boutique blu-ray label releasing an 80s horror film for ex. I discovered Twilight Time through a blu-ray.com review, and while I would have purchased the CHRISTINE blu-ray, I'm not angry at TT or anyone else I missed my opportunity. There are so many movies and blu-rays I'll never get to in my lifetime so why would I be angered that I missed buying a limited edition blu-ray? Disappointed perhaps, but not angered.

Originally Posted by rock, stone

After that, there is the price point. A lot of people who are likely to buy TT titles are enthusiasts who have more passion for film than disposable income. They are used to the idea that a little patience and luck will be enough to get them a decent deal on most titles. Not $5 like hyperbolists claim, but somewhere under $20 isn't unreasonable to expect.

I certainly understand the price point issue, and I think that's the main reason people get upset with TT because they are paying nearly $35 a blu-ray. A TT blu-ray with no extras beyond an isolated score (which I didn't think I'd like, but I now find quite an enjoyable extra) does seem a bit high for that amount. Price has influenced a couple TT decisions. I didn't purchase MAJOR DUNDEE for nearly $40 (s & h incl) because they didn't have all the scores linked to the different versions the way the previous disc did so I would have had to buy the DVD for the score issue & the TT blu-ray for the image so I bought neither.

Originally Posted by rock, stone

But the fact that they have put a stranglehold on availability and distribution means there just aren't options, which many consumers resent.

The lack of discounts is a problem for those of us used to scouring the internet for the best deal. Consumers can always use gift certificates and credit card points to purchase TT blu-rays on Amazon since Screen Archives sells them on there. Doesn't make it a Criterion type discount, but it can lower the cost a bit. I've bought a couple TT blu-rays for around $25 with shipping.

Originally Posted by rock, stone

There is also, with the earlier releases, a lack of detail and refinement to the overall presentation. No extras, no subs, not even chapter stops, if the quality of the transfers wasn't so strong and the fact there was an insert, they could practically look like bootlegs. The addition of the isolated score appealed to such a small, specific demographic I think a lot of already irritated customers didn't even know what to think about it. It all made the "premium" price harder to swallow.

Seems valid to attack the quality of the prints and lack of thought (if this is the case) put into certain blu-rays. I was disappointed to see PONY SOLDIER had such a weak print as I would have purchased it otherwise. I originally scoffed at the isolated score as an extra, but as I wrote above, I've come to appreciate it. Gives me a whole new appreciation for composers.

[bluknight1]

Look, I hate that Fox and Sony are licensing high profile catalog titles to Twilight Time, but I don't devote any of my efforts to go after Twilight Time or its owners. I like that they are releasing the titles the studios are offering them. The issue is not Twilight Time; it's the studios themselves.

[eco10530]

Originally Posted by Musicguy

Thanks, I didn't know going directly through Criterion was cheaper!

It's not...wait for the Barnes and Noble sales. There is one coming up in November.