Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[KJones77]

Originally Posted by AKORIS

you don't seem to understand a collector mentality....

I get it for the extras, like having a title in a set, with a booklet, maybe some exclusive special features, different packaging, etc.

But the title itself? No, I don't get the collector mentality there. It's a film, not some trinket.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by plateoshrimp

I heard Nick Redman on podcast a few years ago and he said something about when they were starting Twilight Time their research showed that 3,000 copies was about the average amount of copies they could expect to sell of a title. Of course some titles had more demand and he admitted that they had titles that they knew would not sell well but they wanted to release them for personal reasons, films that they enjoyed themselves.

I know all the ins and outs and where and whys of how they decided upon that number and came up with their business model. It was discussed and debated and argued about endlessly during the early days of the label until it became quite tiresome and there was no point in discussing it anymore.

That doesn't change the fact that it was a stupid business model to begin with. They were left with thousands of copies of titles that no one really wanted that they ended up having to practically give away, while the titles people really wanted often sold out quickly and now may never be available again to people who would want and appreciate them.

It's been a great ride for Twilight Time, I have some great movies thanks to them, but I'm also kind of glad they're done and while Fox may be a write-off at this point, I'm hoping that other labels will benefit and be able to release the sorts of titles that Twilight Time used to without being tethered to that stupid limited edition model.

[BagheeraMcGee]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

I know all the ins and outs and where and whys of how they decided upon that number and came up with their business model. It was discussed and debated and argued about endlessly during the early days of the label until it became quite tiresome and there was no point in discussing it anymore.

That doesn't change the fact that it was a stupid business model to begin with. They were left with thousands of copies of titles that no one really wanted that they ended up having to practically give away, while the titles people really wanted often sold out quickly and now may never be available again to people who would want and appreciate them.

It's been a great ride for Twilight Time, I have some great movies thanks to them, but I'm also kind of glad they're done and while Fox may be a write-off at this point, I'm hoping that other labels will benefit and be able to release the sorts of titles that Twilight Time used to without being tethered to that stupid limited edition model.

I think Kino, Arrow and Indicator will pick up most of the slack here.

[Aclea]

Well, because they paid the royalties upfront the 3000 limit was probably dictated as much by what they could realistically afford on a monthly basis as what they could sell (and in some cases I'm sure the only way Fox or Sony would licence some forgotten films was if there was a substantial cash in advance sum), but beyond that they did originally have provisions for 'Encore editions' pressings in their contracts - yet it was the overwhelmingly negative response from many collectors on sites like this whining about their collections being devalued and TT being liars, thieves and conmen that made them stop reprinting titles that sold out because it just wasn't worth all the tsouris. Which is why the US market never got the restored 7th Voyage of Sinbad for a start.

As for people missing out, only a few TT titles sold out quickly and most never never did (look how often people talk about waiting to see if even $10 or under titles drop further before even considering pulling the trigger), so the studios probably made more from TT's limited edition model than they would from Kino on unlimited runs, especially considering how quickly many Kino titles go to the 'while supplies last' section (some within a few months rather than years) because they don't sell enough to bother renewing.

[Bugg]

I don't care if some limited edition I bought gets repressed, but I do understand why it would be a bad move for many labels, as the rarity appeal is what drives up demand and helps sell the discs. Even with someone like myself that doesn't care about future dollar value, just knowing that something is limited makes me more a lot more likely to buy it, because I am worried that I'll lose my chance to own a copy if I wait too long. Yet if the title was a standard release, it would likely just be another of many titles that spends forever in my want list.

[rocknblues81]

Originally Posted by bdgking

Part of the prestige to ordering Twilight Time movies are that they are limited to 3,000 the rarity of them .

I certainly hope that SAE does not re-release these but if they do only ones that had long been sold out not recent ones .

Magnificent Flying Machines , Egyptian like those would be fine IMO to re-release ones that sold out say within the last 2 years I would not be okay with from a collectable stand point . If all they did was re-release stuff then it no longer makes stuff rarer & more collectible IMO .

Anyways titles at SAE that are on their way to being sold out at SAE are

Zelig
Cutters Way &
Alamo Bay

Neither of these are available at Twilight Time

“Prestige” is low priority for me. For me, its about the film and me liking it. Mostly.

[belcherman]

Originally Posted by Rzzzz

I love Natalie Wood and Dyan Cannon and bought that Dvd years ago. I watched it once and absolutely HATED it. Pure crap. I traded it in immediately....

While my reaction wasn’t as strong as yours, I don’t think I’ll be watching B&C&T&A again. It was considered edgy and controversial when it came out, but now it just seems annoying. It hasn’t aged well except as a time capsule of that time and place.

[Dailyan]

Originally Posted by Rzzzz

I love Natalie Wood and Dyan Cannon and bought that Dvd years ago. I watched it once and absolutely HATED it. Pure crap. I traded it in immediately....

Originally Posted by belcherman

While my reaction wasn’t as strong as yours, I don’t think I’ll be watching B&C&T&A again. It was considered edgy and controversial when it came out, but now it just seems annoying. It hasn’t aged well except as a time capsule of that time and place.

I wasn't really a fan myself. I like the cast but I found the characters to be, generally, unlikable (I had a similar feeling with "The Big Chill"). I prefer Mazursky's later work.

[cjamescook]

As we lament the passing of the Twilight Time label, a reminder, and a question:

The reminder is the origin of the name "Twilight Time". The founders chose that name because they felt they were operating in the twilight years of the physical media industry. As reported elsewhere, they hoped for a minimum of three years and they would re-evaluate at the nine- or ten-year mark if they were still in business.

The question is this: One of the reasons they threw in the towel was the increasing cost of acquiring films to release. I find that incongruous given that physical media sales and therefore demand for licensing films for the same are declining. Why would a rights-owner increase their price in that market? We can all speculate, but are there any insiders that know the real answer here?

[Aclea]

Simple answer: to make it worth their while. With fewer home video staff at studios as turnover shrinks, the time consuming stuff like drawing up contracts, getting approvals, sourcing delivery materials, etc, needs to justify the time and effort involved with limited resources for the studio to meet their own targets to avoid further cuts. Plus other labels bidding for the same titles once TT opened the doors at Fox and Sony creates a more competitive market where studios minimum price increases.

[Dollar Colonel]

Originally Posted by cjamescook

As we lament the passing of the Twilight Time label, a reminder, and a question:

The reminder is the origin of the name "Twilight Time". The founders chose that name because they felt they were operating in the twilight years of the physical media industry. As reported elsewhere, they hoped for a minimum of three years and they would re-evaluate at the nine- or ten-year mark if they were still in business.

The question is this: One of the reasons they threw in the towel was the increasing cost of acquiring films to release. I find that incongruous given that physical media sales and therefore demand for licensing films for the same are declining. Why would a rights-owner increase their price in that market? We can all speculate, but are there any insiders that know the real answer here?

Can I speculate? Boutiques are competing with startup streaming services that can afford to outbid them without having the same physical media costs. Even if it's a film that isn't in demand, rights holders have had their expectations raised and would rather hold out for more money than to devalue their product. For smaller films, as original owners are dying, big companies are buying up the rights and they have more of a corporate interest in protecting their investment.

[jayembee]

Originally Posted by Aclea

Well, because they paid the royalties upfront the 3000 limit was probably dictated as much by what they could realistically afford on a monthly basis as what they could sell (and in some cases I'm sure the only way Fox or Sony would licence some forgotten films was if there was a substantial cash in advance sum)

As I understand it, the cost of the license was dictated by the number of copies TT would press. If they pressed more than 3000, they'd pay a higher license fee, if they pressed fewer, they would pay a lower license fee. Sounds simple, right? Press fewer copies, and pay a lower fee. But the amount of the fee for a 3000-copy run was probably the lowest that the studios would accept.

There were seven titles where they had a higher press run, six of them at 5000. It didn't occur to me till just now, but Fright Night and Journey to the Center of the Earth were tied for best-selling title, as each sold 3000 copies of the first edition, and 5000 copies of the second, for a total of 8000 each. Fright Night was the overall champ, though, because both press runs sold out almost immediately. All of the 5000-copy press runs sold out, though some took longer than others.

The one they over-estimated, though, was Harlock. They goosed the press run up to 3500, and it still hasn't sold out yet, after being available for over four years. I'll bet they were glad they didn't try that one at 5000 copies.

[Aclea]

But the per unit price studios would accept has increased in the ten years since they started, whether because of inflation or competitive bidding from other labels, while more customers waited for sales.

Since Brian Jamieson was involved in the marketing for the film, I believe Harlock was not a standard Fox/Sony-style deal.

[jayembee]

Originally Posted by Bugg

I don't care if some limited edition I bought gets repressed, but I do understand why it would be a bad move for many labels, as the rarity appeal is what drives up demand and helps sell the discs. Even with someone like myself that doesn't care about future dollar value, just knowing that something is limited makes me more a lot more likely to buy it, because I am worried that I'll lose my chance to own a copy if I wait too long. Yet if the title was a standard release, it would likely just be another of many titles that spends forever in my want list.

The thing is, TT's press runs were probably not a whole lot lower than many of those from other smaller labels. Even the major labels probably don't press much, if any, more than that. The difference is that a major label will happily press more copies if their initial run sells briskly. TT -- and other smaller labels -- will specify a limit, and (mostly) stick with it.

FOMO is certainly part of the driving force for people to buy limited editions. The thing about Twilight Time, though, is that it didn't take long to get a good feel for what was going to sell out quickly, or very quickly, or almost immediately. It took me about 2-3 months to realize that I didn't really have to be right there at the keyboard at 4pm on the first Wednesday of the month to guarantee that I'd get a copy of whatever was up for pre-order. It helped that the ones that sold out almost immediately were titles I didn't care about missing.

[leeza]

I'm so disappointed that I missed out on Peyton Place.

[Deadguy2322]

Originally Posted by jayembee

As I understand it, the cost of the license was dictated by the number of copies TT would press. If they pressed more than 3000, they'd pay a higher license fee, if they pressed fewer, they would pay a lower license fee. Sounds simple, right? Press fewer copies, and pay a lower fee. But the amount of the fee for a 3000-copy run was probably the lowest that the studios would accept.

There were seven titles where they had a higher press run, six of them at 5000. It didn't occur to me till just now, but Fright Night and Journey to the Center of the Earth were tied for best-selling title, as each sold 3000 copies of the first edition, and 5000 copies of the second, for a total of 8000 each. Fright Night was the overall champ, though, because both press runs sold out almost immediately. All of the 5000-copy press runs sold out, though some took longer than others.

The one they over-estimated, though, was Harlock. They goosed the press run up to 3500, and it still hasn't sold out yet, after being available for over four years. I'll bet they were glad they didn't try that one at 5000 copies.

Harlock would probably have sold well for a label that actually did marketing for anything. If it was on the shelves at retail it would have sold just on visuals.

[spatafore]

Originally Posted by leeza

I'm so disappointed that I missed out on Peyton Place.

Repressed Later

[jw007]

I'm not sure where I stand on the 3,000 limited edition model, but didn't Twilight Time offer a 2nd chance to fans for the movie Rollerball, when they released the Encore Edition of it, after the initial release got sold out?

I'm all for re-pressing or creating additional "encore editions" for certain titles that are best sellers and super popular. It's all about supply and demand, and TT's business model ultimately didn't work, but you can't deny it was an interesting experiment.

[GrouchoFan]

So I guess there will be no one to complain to anymore that my Collectors Edition magnets for The Egyptian and Journey to the Center of the Earth are coming apart at the seams?

As a big fan of film scores, I will certainly miss this label. Loved their isolated score tracks on almost every title. I own about 50 of their releases; there aren't too many more I want. Sure, I'd like to see almost everything they've released, but there aren't that many that I really, really need to own, even at closeout prices. I already have too many unwatched titles piling up.

Thanks for the memories, Twilight Time!

[SonnybytheSea]

Originally Posted by jayembee

It didn't occur to me till just now, but Fright Night and Journey to the Center of the Earth were tied for best-selling title, as each sold 3000 copies of the first edition, and 5000 copies of the second, for a total of 8000 each. Fright Night was the overall champ, though, because both press runs sold out almost immediately.

I remember when Fright Night: 30th Anniversary Special Edition went up on sale and was basically sold out within a few hours. I believe most people thought that would be the last release! I bought that version thinking it would probably be the only chance to get it on Blu, little did I know 4 years later I ended up getting the Sony release mainly because it had "You're So Cool, Brewster! The Story of Fright Night" as a bonus.

I do think the studios look at the best-selling titles and decided to do their own run by enticing the fans with new bonus features to get them to double-dip on the film....