Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[JoeDeM]

Originally Posted by Brent L.

If you strip away the limited print of their titles, most of them would barely even warrant a price of $15, or even $10 in some cases. If the issues with NotLD were blatantly known ahead of time that title wouldn't have sold hardly anything had it not been limited and would have ended up in a $5 bin somewhere. At the very, VERY least, they should offer 50% off sales or something if a title goes for a period of time without selling out.

TT does have sales by offering a coveted autographed copy free with the purchase of $100, a 50% off sale would mean a complete loss on that title with the upfront fees paid to Sony/Fox, but I could see them offering maybe a $5 coupon code every so often on select titles.

[klauswhereareyou]

TT is good for titles that you want, but unless you've got lots of disposable income it's not something one should waste time and money blind buying things unless they're preaty sure it's something they will like/love. I'd like to purchase The Roots of Heaven and Desiree, but they are the types of movies that I'm not sure I'll like/love, and I can't take the risk of dropping 30 and up for. If they were going for ten bucks or less, then I'd get them.

[malcy30]

Agree most of the comments in the article have been debated here many times.
However will repeat a few of my comments from previously

Mainstream titles e.g. As Good as it Gets
I agree that Sony should be releasing these themselves and not licensing to TT. However I presume they have done a cost benefit of $10 in fees possibly per disk on 3,000 copies vs selling many more themselves at a lower price so only a $1 say profit per disk.
What is annoying is Sony Europe obviously see a profiatble market for these as they can sell the popular ones at around $10 a go there, so why not in US or UK ?

Arthouse vs mainstream
There is a potential downside that TT only agree to take the really obscure stuff if they also get some more marketable titles as well. Therefore without TT being given Sleepless in Seattle they would not take Nicholas and Alexandra say, so these would never appear on BD.

Price
Criterion sell their BD at $30 bare bones or $40 with own produced or licensed extras. So at first sight then TT at $30 with isolated score and any existing DVD extras ported over, looks okay. The problem is we all know that Criterion discount so a $40 extra laden title will retail for $30 or less on release day, and be in the B&N half price sale so only $20 within 6 months, with no risk of a sell out before then if you hold out for the lower price.

3,000 copy limit
What price does something like Sleepless in Seattle need to be priced at to sell in high volumes. If they think 3,000 copies at $30 sells within 3 years, would asking for a 10,000+ limit but pricing at $20 boost or lower profits. Remember there is the fixed costs so as price drops the profit reduction is magnified. Remember these are being priced at around $10 with unlimited availability in Europe and those prices include sales tax so even less money for Sony as after they have paid tax the price is only around $8.

[JoeDeM]

Originally Posted by malcy30

Agree most of the comments in the article have been debated here many times.
However will repeat a few of my comments from previously

Mainstream titles e.g. As Good as it Gets
I agree that Sony should be releasing these themselves and not licensing to TT. However I presume they have done a cost benefit of $10 in fees possibly per disk on 3,000 copies vs selling many more themselves at a lower price so only a $1 say profit per disk.
What is annoying is Sony Europe obviously see a profiatble market for these as they can sell the popular ones at around $10 a go there, so why not in US or UK ?

Perhaps Sony Europe thinks that the demographic in Europe is more appreciable of catalog titles than North America is. I work with a lot of young affluent guy's who think buying any movie is a waste of money, most only buy the Disney Cartoons for their kids, and that's the extent of their collection.

[Rooper]

Originally Posted by JoeDeM

I also agree, but what does Dr. Adam Jahnke expect TT to do, only release films that very few people want, that's an even worse business model. Perhaps TT should spin off a second label like Shout/Scream, they can call it TT Unlimited and go after even more main stream titles.

Personally I don't care who releases what, as long as it gets released. I really like that TT, Olive, Shout/Scream are going after whatever they can get their hands on, since it seems that the majors have been really dropping the ball lately, you listening WB.

I tend to agree with the responses. I don't really find what was said in the article to be untrue, but it also proposes little solutions and likely overstates the problem.

For one, I doubt studios are basing their decisions on physical/disc based media on whether or not As Good As It Gets sells out by Twilight Time. Those decisions are likely driven by the sales for "big" titles like Iron Man 3 and Man of Steel. Even beyond those new release titles, the sales of catalog titles as a whole likely plays into what other titles a studio release. The sales of Twilight Time titles matters little, if any, in what studios do. As stated, most of these title were not going to get release anyway.

Second, not sure what Twilight Time can do to raise their profile. Yes, its maintains a low, if not non-existant, profile for the common consumer. Normally you change that by marketing. But is it financially viable to spend money to grow the brand? Not sure. They could spend a million or even millions and get little tangible benefit in sales. Similarly, not sure if it is financially worthwhile to spend money on extras. Marketing and other decisions will be dependent on Twilight Time's accoutning books, something I do not have access to

People complain about the limited numbers, but that's driven by the studios and what appear to be agreements with the guilds that minimize or elimiate royalties on small print runs like these. Raising the numbers only really helps the few titles that sold out and starts to make things cost ineffective. Besides, people will complain no matter what you do.

The only thing Twilight Time can really do is limit who they sell to. And outside of Christine and possibly NOTLD, resellers have not really been a problem. Maybe limit the quantities more and it'll resolve most issues.

[Brad1963]

Everyone should be angry at Sony not Twilight Time. Sony should have released Fright Night, Christine, Philadelphia, As Good as it Gets, Night of the Living Dead, Steel Magnolias and Sleepless in Seattle. There is no reason they couldn't have released them themselves and let consumers purchase on Amazon, Best Buy, Costco, Walmart etc for $10 to $15.

Twilight Time is a boutique company that should specialize in obscure titles like Hard Times, Sound and the Fury, Alamo Bay, Swamp Water, Rapture etc. These are the titles that need a Twilight Time, Olive, Shout Factory or Criterion since they will not appeal to mass consumers but more the film enthusiasts.

[whiteberry]

Originally Posted by JoeDeM

Perhaps Sony Europe thinks that the demographic in Europe is more appreciable of catalog titles than North America is.

I think this is the case and it's a view also shared by other companies including Warner Bros. For example, the Lethal Weapon box set was released in Europe 1 1/2 years before it was released in the U.S. The Police Academy movies and Beverly Hills Cop 2-3 are out in Europe and Japan but have yet to even be announced in the U.S. We all know the U.S will get the same exact discs and Warner Bros. could release them tomorrow if they wanted to. But they choose to sit on them in the U.S. which indicates the market for catalog titles in the U.S. isn't that great.

[klauswhereareyou]

I have a feeling TT has no interest in raising their profile, if they did, they would try to sell more then 3,000 copies of films that they knew would sell well. Mo money...mo problems. I don't think the people running it could seriously run a real label, not knocking them, just not what they could handle.

[deepred]

Originally Posted by chriszilla

I agree. Most of the issues raised are out of TT's control, anyway.

TT came up with the model so it is in their control.

[whiteberry]

Originally Posted by deepred

TT came up with the model so it is in their control.

No, the model was created and is used successfully by most of the soundtrack companies. It's a model that has allowed those soundtrack companies to remain in business even though CD sales have dropped, they can't any of their product in stores, and studios have little interest in releasing the scores themselves. Like the LL releases, many are limited editions and have above average prices (around $20 for a single CD). This is why LL sells their releases through the biggest soundtrack CD retailer (Screen Archives).

[Paul.R.S]

Originally Posted by whiteberry

No, the model was created and is used successfully by most of the soundtrack companies. It's a model that has allowed those soundtrack companies to remain in business even though CD sales have dropped, they can't any of their product in stores, and studios have little interest in releasing the scores themselves. Like the LL releases, many are limited editions and have above average prices (around $20 for a single CD). This is why LL sells their releases through the biggest soundtrack CD retailer (Screen Archives).

IMO this is a good point and one which I can appreciate as a film score buff and inveterate CD buyer. I'm just sad it's come to this. Although boutiques like SAE focus more on, say, Miklos Rozsa and some will therefore bristle at my even mentioning Steve Jablonsky, I knew we'd arrived in some new fakakta marketplace when even Revenge Of the Fallen didn't see a score CD release.

Has there been any insight as to why Sony did not approach/couldn't negotiate a deal with Criterion for these releases?

[Brad1963]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

I have a feeling TT has no interest in raising their profile, if they did, they would try to sell more then 3,000 copies of films that they knew would sell well. Mo money...mo problems. I don't think the people running it could seriously run a real label, not knocking them, just not what they could handle.

The way they are doing it is economically sound for them. They do not have to worry about distribution outside of SAE and they use what Fox and Sony give them to use so they do not have to worry about remastering titles.

[skiizim]

Originally Posted by Brad1963

Everyone should be angry at Sony not Twilight Time. Sony should have released Fright Night, Christine, Philadelphia, As Good as it Gets, Night of the Living Dead, Steel Magnolias and Sleepless in Seattle. There is no reason they couldn't have released them themselves and let consumers purchase on Amazon, Best Buy, Costco, Walmart etc for $10 to $15.

Twilight Time is a boutique company that should specialize in obscure titles like Hard Times, Sound and the Fury, Alamo Bay, Swamp Water, Rapture etc. These are the titles that need a Twilight Time, Olive, Shout Factory or Criterion since they will not appeal to mass consumers but more the film enthusiasts.

Who knows what these companies base there practices on, maybe they got tired of being in the $5 bins. Who really knows but I don't think Sony wants to invest the money only to have people wait for the movie to be be $10 or less. These companies are about making money, not about you getting the best deal possible.

[deepred]

Originally Posted by whiteberry

No, the model was created and is used successfully by most of the soundtrack companies. It's a model that has allowed those soundtrack companies to remain in business even though CD sales have dropped, they can't any of their product in stores, and studios have little interest in releasing the scores themselves. Like the LL releases, many are limited editions and have above average prices (around $20 for a single CD). This is why LL sells their releases through the biggest soundtrack CD retailer (Screen Archives).

So you are saying TT has no control over using that model? TT should have control of their own company and it is in their hands. Just like it's in Scream Factory's hands to decide they may want to release Psycho II and III but not IV. You can defend their model which I see you doing but please don't say TT has no control in how they run their business. They picked this model and stand by it and that is their right to do so but it is not out of their control.

[Brad1963]

Originally Posted by skiizim

Who knows what these companies base there practices on, maybe they got tired of being in the $5 bins. Who really knows but I don't think Sony wants to invest the money only to have people wait for the movie to be be $10 or less. These companies are about making money, not about you getting the best deal possible.

The retail price seems to be between $14.99 and $24.99 for new catalog titles depending on what it is. Sony's Lawrence of Arabia is retail $19.99 but can be found at between $9.99 and $14.99 depending on where you find it. Titles like Sleepless in Seattle and Christine would be priced about the same and if there is a Promotion or sale maybe even less. Most of all they would be in plain view for consumers and not sold on a website nobody has ever heard of. I think it is lazy on Sony's part to not release already proven big sellers on a format they invented. I could see where titles like Hard Times, Bite the Bullet and Alamo Bay may not be worth it to Sony, but Fright Night and Steel Magnolias???

[Paul.R.S]

Originally Posted by deepred

So you are saying TT has no control over using that model? TT should have control of their own company and it is in their hands. Just like it's in Scream Factory's hands to decide they may want to release Psycho II and III but not IV. You can defend their model which I see you doing but please don't say TT has no control in how they run their business. They picked this model and stand by it and that is their right to do so but it is not out of their control.

Far be it from me to speak on someone else's behalf, but I think his/the point is that it is a licensor-licensee relationship. SAE/TT is the licensee and, although they of course have and "control" (a problematic word in this context) their business model, the licensee is rarely if ever in the driver seat in such a relationship because the licensor controls the underlying rights to the property/content being licensed.

Originally Posted by Brad1963

I think it is lazy on Sony's part to not release already proven big sellers on a format they invented.

Snap! FWIW I agree. Sony could even promote such releases via BD-Live. Oh, that's right, I just learned they've abandoned that, too. Kinda like across-the-board SA-CD support in their latest BD players . . . but, in the words of George Carlin, "Don't get me started on Judas."

[deepred]

Originally Posted by Paul.R.S

Far be it from me to speak on someone else's behalf, but I think his/the point is that it is a licensor-licensee relationship. SAE/TT is the licensee and, although they of course have and "control" (a problematic word in this context) their business model, the licensee is rarely if ever in the driver seat in such a relationship because the licensor controls the underlying rights to the property/content being licensed.

Yes, and a licensee has the control to reject the licensor if they cannot agree on a business model. Anyway, as noirfan has said - this has been discussed ad nauseum. I just find it funny when people act like TT are the victims of the model they chose.

[Paul.R.S]

Originally Posted by deepred

Yes, and a licensee has the control to reject the licensor if they cannot agree on a business model. Anyway, as noirfan has said - this has been discussed ad nauseum. I just find it funny when people act like TT are the victims of the model they chose.

And if TT "reject[s] the licensor" they don't get the opportunity to release the title(s) in question.

It might be helpful if you more specifically said what you're referring to and taking issue with when you say "business model," as I think there is a disconnect in understanding/discussion attributable to that term being used a bit broadly. Is it the number of copies? This is almost surely set by Sony.

Obviously TT and Sony do indeed "agree on a business model" or we wouldn't be seeing any Sony-licensed releases from TT at all. Perhaps someone who is friendly with Mr. Redman (?)/business affairs at either company can speak more definitively but it seems to me that it is very possible that there have/has indeed been (a) instance(s) wherein an agreement couldn't be reached on (a) title(s). But we wouldn't get a press release about that, would we? So I think it's important to parse whatever personal preferences/opinions any of us might have as enthusiasts from the business reality/facts.

[deepred]

Originally Posted by Paul.R.S

And if TT "reject[s] the licensor" they don't get the opportunity to release the title(s) in question.

It might be helpful if you more specifically said what you're referring to and taking issue with when you say "business model," as I think there is a disconnect in understanding/discussion attributable to that term being used a bit broadly. Is it the number of copies? This is almost surely set by Sony.

Obviously TT and Sony do indeed "agree on a business model" or we wouldn't be seeing any Sony-licensed releases from TT at all. Perhaps someone who is friendly with Mr. Redman (?)/business affairs at either company can speak more definitively but it seems to me that it is very possible that there have/has indeed been (a) instance(s) wherein an agreement couldn't be reached on (a) title(s). But we wouldn't get a press release about that, would we? So I think it's important to parse whatever personal preferences/opinions any of us might have as enthusiasts from the business reality/facts.

I am specifically saying that people should not say that TT has no control. You are right if they passed on it, they wouldn't get the title. Just like some companies have passed on Night of the Demons because they couldn't come to agreement with the licensor. The companies did not collapse because they couldn't release the title, they released other titles. If TT is so dependent on Sony that they cannot pass their titles up, that's on TT. TT picked the model or agreed to the model - that was in their control - that is all I am saying.

[Blu Titan]

Originally Posted by Imrahil2001

As of 3:30 PM Central today, this was still available for purchase on SAE.

Honestly, I'm stumped as to why this one is so popular.

It is still available @ TCM for those who have interest in buying it. It will sell out shortly (few hours).

http://shop.tcm.com/body-double-blu-...twilight-times