Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by wormraper

the reason people could JUSTIFY the $35 (with shipping) price tag was BECAUSE of the limited availability. that's the point really

I don't think that's completely correct. Yes, people will pay more for titles with limited availability, but the Artificial Limited Availability of a 3000 unit print-run isn't necessary for that at all, as the truth is any small distributor can get those prices for any title that the big studios aren't interested in distributing. The perception of scarcity is a rational deduction from the simple fact that a lot of movies will never see a BD release because there is no commercial viability in a large print-run, and a small run would have high unit prices; so when we see an obscure film get released in a small print run, we pay the $30 price that is necessary to support the cost of small print runs, and cross our fingers and hope that if we consumers show an appetite for this stuff, then they might give us more of these obscure originals.

Originally Posted by CobraVerde

Nope, no price. I'd gladly spend $100 or $200 on a title like I did in the Laserdisc days.

Now that's just Devil's advocacy. You know darn well that reasoning doesn't fly for most people. $100-$200 is crazy.

Originally Posted by CobraVerde

They aren't priced any higher than the MSRP of discs from pretty much ANY studio. That's what you people fail to acknowledge. They just don't have 50% markdowns by third party sellers.

Not really correct, but it is if you specify that is the MSRP for this type of release: small production-run of obscure titles, i.e. Flicker Alley or Cohen.

Originally Posted by CobraVerde

It's good that you can guarantee (with zero proof) that none of the titles would've sold out otherwise. That further solidifies the point that catalog titles just don't sell, which is why no one wants to release them.

So if you acknowledge this, why do you keep going back to this point:

Originally Posted by CobraVerde

Everything will be streaming and downloads soon enough, and all these titles will be available forever.

Anyone who believed the perception of "we'll never be able to get it again!!!" is truly one of the suckers born every minute. Not to mention 4K re-dos, 8K re-dos, etc.

Be logically consistent. You know as well as anybody that a lot of titles drop off the map forever. A lot of things that were on VHS never made it to DVD, and a lot of films will never be perceived by any studio as worth the cost of re-distributing, (not even on the Magical Cloud format, which by the way, does not nor ever will have any credibility with any media collector).

How is somebody a "sucker" for being aware of the fact that a certain old title is not commercially viable and therefore very unlikely to get another home video release any time soon, if ever?

I could probably get behind most of your argument if it wasn't built up on such a pile of invalid hyperboles.

Originally Posted by wormraper

not really. I'm pointing out that the perception of "we'll never be able to get it again!!!" was the driving factor behind many people actually giving in and paying that price.

An artificial cap of 3000 units was not the basis of that sentiment. Again, that sentiment was very reasonably based in the fact of the low commercial viability of said titles.

Originally Posted by wormraper

you see that same statement uttered a million times in any TT thread...while it may not be forbidden or even unmentioned that they could renew them, you can sure admit that they've capitalized on that fear of "never again" to sell out quickly as possible, and as such you can see why some people would be a bit annoyed by them re-releasing the title.

That anxiety was not artificially created by the number 3000, it already existed in the reality of low demand for catalog titles. If those people were collectors they should be pleased by the market's ability to effect production, it bodes well for the future. The perception of "harm" from a reissue only applies to a speculative investor, and I have no sympathy for them, they are the true "suckers" who banked on a probability and now wanna scream like they got cheated.

Originally Posted by wormraper

..to them (I'm not one of them since I didn't even get the movie) all the "well we need these high prices because we only do limited releases" seems a little hollow and makes them reconsider whether that premium is justified. you can disagree on if it's justified or not, but those reasons are enough for many people.

Wrong. They need that price to pay for a limited production run. If they do another small production run, then they still need to charge the price needed to cover the cost of a small production run. If they had done 10,000 or more to begin with, then they would have lower costs, but they didn't, they hedged their bet and passed the cost to consumers. The only reason that they even deem another run to be viable is because they under-projected the market's appetite for a certain title, (or, more likely, the market got screwed up by a bunch of scalpers; either way, TT fixes the problem.)

Originally Posted by CobraVerde

Or, they don't sell out because catalog sales for blu-rays stink- especially for average-to-flop horror titles that were never big hits

Indeed. Thank goodness for small distributors like TT who are interested in pursuing a small but enthusiastic market of hard-core film hobbyists.

Originally Posted by wormraper

oi vey, not that streaming argument again.

as for the bolded part. you'd be surprised how VERY common that is in every twilight time thread. usually by the proponents of the company citing "well you better get them now, cuz these will likely be the last time they're released on home video!!, the studios don't want to release them and if it wasn't for TT then we'd not be having them AT ALL"

People say it because it's true, (was and still is). Thank god that TT has finally made enough money off of us to finally be able to afford to reissue some of the titles that scalpers essentially stole from the market.

[jayembee]

Originally Posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother

Django, THANK YOU! I think that might be it! I didn't see it right from the start, so didn't pick up on the psychic element, but the two leads more or less look like I remember! The plot with the child sounds just like it.

Much appreciated, I've been trying to find this out for years! Thank you so much!

As far as I tell, Séance on a Wet Afternoon was never released on Blu-ray anywhere, but it was released on DVD in several countries. For your purposes, I suppose getting the Australian release from Umbrella would be the best option.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Only a handful will be reissued really. I don't see that being an issue.

I don't either, not much anyway. Might be a net gain in terms of their image, since there's a lot of hate for TT (unjustified of course) because of those few titles which have been sold out for so long and have high ebay prices.

[popeflick]

Originally Posted by rdodolak

If they did then that argument wouldn't hold water since TT can't control what another company does. Obviously, TT can only control what has been contractually agreed upon between the studio and them.

Now, Sony is releasing Fright Night and Christine in Europe come September but I don't hear people complaining about that or how it's TT's fault. So I don't believe that's the issue at hand with folks.

So how is it different that TT renews the license and puts out another batch?

It isn't.

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by popeflick

So how is it different that TT renews the license and puts out another batch?

It isn't.

It isn't and thus I agree with you on that.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Anybody that thinks Fear of Scalpers is not a huge selling point is deluding themselves.

Fixed.

Scarcity is the motivator, supply that is short of demand, not the desire to prevent others from owning a copy of something that you have.

3000 copies doesn't make people want it more, it makes people afraid that they might not be able to get it if they don't hurry.

Originally Posted by bruceames.

I don't mind the selective reissues as long as it's done only on a few titles, but even then that limited edition model will become somewhat watered down now, especially since the reissues will be improved upon. They really can't have it both ways. If they go hog wild with the reissues then that damages the appeal of the model, plain and simple. How much so depends upon how much reissuing they plan to do. Will it be 10% of the sold out titles, 50%? I was heartened by a post they made to the effect that the reissues will be very limited and that most sold out titles will never be reissued by them. That's a good call IMO, as in my sake it makes me feel more justified in paying $30 for a movie because of the limited edition.

Yes indeed, the appeal of the model will be hurt soooo much by the possibility of being able to get a title for the appropriate $30 instead of having to shell out $160 to a scalper.

The model will only be less appealing to SCALPERS, period.

Come on, guys.

I sincerely hope it does work out that way, I hope the "threat" of re-issues scares off some of the bloodsuckers. Between this and limiting people to 1 or 3 copies, they are fixing a problem, this is a good thing.

----------------------------------

Can't find the original post, but I pretty distinctly remember reading the big Twilight Time announcement here, and the stipulation was 3 year licenses beginning At the time the license was Obtained, not release date. Obvious reason being that the moratorium in the license applies to the entire Home Video industry, not just Twilight Time's production model; it's not an Internal Scheduling issue, it's a copyright license.

[popeflick]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

I'm not blaming TT for anything. I'm actually one of their bigger supporters. I was just commenting that excessive reissues could have negative consequences on the limited edition sales model as a whole. Do you disagree with that?

I'm not sure, but I bring a comic book collector background to this. And in the end what were discussing are second and third printings. In comics those typically don't destroy value of 1st printing back issues except in an extreme case like Miracleman. Sometimes it reinforces the value of the first printings.

Do I think it might slow down future sales? I'd be willing to bet it will tamp down the initial resale market that so many hate here but I'd wager most of the titles already sold out would have sold out anyways even if people knew a second print was coming - but only if it sold out, since that's the case.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by popeflick

I'm not sure, but I bring a comic book collector background to this. And in the end what were discussing are second and third printings. In comics those typically don't destroy value of 1st printing back issues except in an extreme case like Miracleman. Sometimes it reinforces the value of the first printings.

Do I think it might slow down future sales? I'd be willing to bet it will tamp down the initial resale market that so many hate here but I'd wager most of the titles already sold out would have sold out anyways even if people knew a second print was coming - but only if it sold out, since that's the case.

There is certainly a collector's element involved with TT purchases, IMO. People will feel more comfortable purchasing something that will hold it's value more than something that won't. With a TT purchase, at worst it will hold it's value for several years and at best will become a collector's item. Also like Criterion, some people like to collect TT movies and a few are completists (no offense to Criterion lovers for comparing TT to them).

Anyway the point is that limited edition creates urgency, especially on titles that are likely to sell out. Otherwise people would just wait or buy something else instead (the urgency being the tiebreaker).

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Anyway the point is that limited edition creates urgency, especially on titles that are likely to sell out. Otherwise people would just wait or buy something else instead (the urgency being the tiebreaker).

Did AnimEigo need to advertise a Limited Edition number on the Lone Wolf and Cub set to get it to sell out and go from $30 to $160 in just a few short months?

Nope! No advertisement of a numbered edition, no threat of only a single production run, no Limited Edition marketing of any kind, really, in fact, when they were selling the inferior Shogun Assassin versions, they fully disclosed that they would later be releasing LW&C complete.

... just reality, and the market's perception thereof.

[popeflick]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

There is certainly a collector's element involved with TT purchases, IMO. People will feel more comfortable purchasing something that will hold it's value more than something that won't. With a TT purchase, at worst it will hold it's value for several years and at best will become a collector's item. Also like Criterion, some people like to collect TT movies and a few are completists (no offense to Criterion lovers for comparing TT to them).

Anyway the point is that limited edition creates urgency, especially on titles that are likely to sell out. Otherwise people would just wait or buy something else instead (the urgency being the tiebreaker).

The more one thinks about it, even the biggest TT hater can concede that the first group of people to shy away from running out to purchase day 1 will be the speculators which is a win for fans of each release. After all, they're the ones with the most to lose.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by popeflick

The more one thinks about it, even the biggest TT hater can concede that the first group of people to shy away from running out to purchase day 1 will be the speculators which is a win for fans of each release. After all, they're the ones with the most to lose.

You have all kinds of buyers and I'm sure TT appreciates each and every one of them. I'm certainly not in that speculator category, as I've never sold a movie in my life, but I have bought movies from them, movies I thought I would like (otherwise, that would be stupid), based upon them being available only for a very limited time.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Did AnimEigo need to advertise a Limited Edition number on the Lone Wolf and Cub set to get it to sell out and go from $30 to $160 in just a few short months?

Nope! No advertisement of a numbered edition, no threat of only a single production run, no Limited Edition marketing of any kind, really, in fact, when they were selling the inferior Shogun Assassin versions, they fully disclosed that they would later be releasing LW&C complete.

... just reality, and the market's perception thereof.

Alright I get it. You don't think the limited 3000 edition model (with its low quantity alerts and countdown, etc). moves any additional units. Agree to disagree.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Did AnimEigo need to advertise a Limited Edition number on the Lone Wolf and Cub set to get it to sell out and go from $30 to $160 in just a few short months?

Nope! No advertisement of a numbered edition, no threat of only a single production run, no Limited Edition marketing of any kind, really, in fact, when they were selling the inferior Shogun Assassin versions, they fully disclosed that they would later be releasing LW&C complete.

... just reality, and the market's perception thereof.

Selling out isn't the same as going OOP. AnimeEigo lost the rights to it, and that's why it's not available anymore. They still have the rights to Shogun Assassin. Animeigo would have little reason to just make a limited amount of copies of it, when it's just a 2 disc set in plain packaging that can easily be reproduced if their initial inventory sold out. It was a licensing thing. Same thing with their Zatoichi sets, and several other titles from them.

[jayembee]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Alright I get it. You don't think the limited 3000 edition model (with its low quantity alerts and countdown, etc). moves any additional units. Agree to disagree.

Wouldn't that depend on what you mean when you say "moves any additional units"? I think low quantity alerts move additional units sooner, but I don't imagine that those units wouldn't have moved without the alerts.

I don't speculate. I buy only the titles I want. And sure, I ended up ordering the two Flint movies before ordering other titles that I might be more interested in because they're in greater danger of becoming unavailable, but that's a different argument.

It's no different than when Criterion says, "We're losing the rights to such-and-such a film at the end of the month. After that point, it'll no longer be available from us." People read that, they rush out to the local B&N or get on Amazon to grab a copy before they're gone, even if it's not a title high on their priority list. That's the nature of the game.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Selling out isn't the same as going OOP. AnimeEigo lost the rights to it, and that's why it's not available anymore. They still have the rights to Shogun Assassin. Animeigo would have little reason to just make a limited amount of copies of it, when it's just a 2 disc set in plain packaging that can easily be reproduced if their initial inventory sold out. It was a licensing thing. Same thing with their Zatoichi sets, and several other titles from them.

And yet it still jumped up to $160 bucks without any of the aforementioned "manipulation" of Limited Edition marketing.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Alright I get it. You don't think the limited 3000 edition model (with its low quantity alerts and countdown, etc). moves any additional units. Agree to disagree.

OK dude, you're right. Twilight Time should just stand by and watch while scalpers buy up a third of the copies of a title that is probably only going to sell about 3000 copies over the lifespan of BD, hoard them up and watch that manufactured scarcity squeeze an extra $100 out of each copy, money that TT will never see any of, from a price that TT could never get away with putting on a disc, all just because it might hurt the feelings of some neurotic who thinks that his Limited 3000 Edition disc would lose its lustre if TT fixed a supply problem that was created entirely by people effectively turning a limited release of 3000 into a limited release of 2000, with 1000 units being held for ransom. You're right, TT should sit back and watch someone else make all the money exploiting the TT business model AND perpetuate negative feelings against the TT brand in the process, that would be a great business decision.

I think it is fantastic that TT is doing something to undercut those who have harmed their public reputation. They never made a guarantee to those people that TT would protect their resale market, and by their practices they have made themselves the competition, so TT should absolutely do something to scoop that market away from scalpers, anything less would be passive and irresponsible.

Who do you think Twilight Time should appease, somebody who wants to give them $30 for a BD but can't because somebody else already bought them up? Or somebody who already paid and has a copy, and feels an irrational tinge of petulance at the possibility of their BD being somehow "cheapened" by more people being able to own a copy and enjoy the film? Not only is there more benefit from appeasing the first person, but I'd also bet the first description matches a lot more people than the second one, way more people are pissed about scalpers, scarcity, and insanely high prices. At any rate, I'm sure it's a safer bet than appeasing the rare individual who refuses to buy the BD unless it is guaranteed limited to 3000.

That's what you seem to be saying: that you wouldn't buy it unless it were limited to 3000, that pretty much nobody would pay $35 unless they felt assured that it was limited to 3000, and now you feel "lied to" and don't want to buy from them anymore if they reissue titles that sell out. I call BS on all counts.

BTW: Regarding the quoted comment, that's right, I don't believe that the 3000 number sells more units: how can it? You've capped yourself at 3000, that's how many units you're gonna sell, regardless of whether you call it "limited" or not. Please, apply logic for a moment: how are you going to move more units by capping production at 3000 for something that evidently exceeds that level of demand, versus running 3000 now and another 3000 later? You're not even making sense, how can you move more units by capping production at a number that is below market demand? All the 3000 number does is move the last 500 units a lot faster and put them in the hands of speculators, (which in the long-term frustrates a lot of people and hurts the TT brand), and that comes back to my point: it isn't the business model that causes the "I have to buy this now or I will miss out" anxiety, it is the scalping that causes that, the knowledge that speculators will pounce on the low-quantity notices. Without the scalping element, sales would actually do the opposite, they would slowly peter out, the last 100 units would move more slowly than the first 2900, because the initial demand has already been satisfied. That is what I was saying before you chose to reconstruct it as an amusing straw-man argument.

[wormraper]

Amusing how one announcement of re releasing a few titles created more conversation in one day then months of regular releases

[popeflick]

Originally Posted by wormraper

Amusing how one announcement of re releasing a few titles created more conversation in one day then months of regular releases

With the added benefit of people like you and I agreein on stuff those new to the table are bringing... In terms of "wtf?"

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

OK dude, you're right. Twilight Time should just stand by and watch while scalpers buy up a third of the copies of a title that is probably only going to sell about 3000 copies over the lifespan of BD, hoard them up and watch that manufactured scarcity squeeze an extra $100 out of each copy, money that TT will never see any of, from a price that TT could never get away with putting on a disc, all just because it might hurt the feelings of some neurotic who thinks that his Limited 3000 Edition disc would lose its lustre if TT fixed a supply problem that was created entirely by people effectively turning a limited release of 3000 into a limited release of 2000, with 1000 units being held for ransom. You're right, TT should sit back and watch someone else make all the money exploiting the TT business model AND perpetuate negative feelings against the TT brand in the process, that would be a great business decision.

You keep bringing scalpers into the discussion. Must be a big source of irritation for you. But it's not to TT. On the contrary, they likely appreciate all that notoriety because it's free advertising and it adds perceived value to their brand and makes it all the more desirable.

[mjbethancourt]

You know, I've heard a lot of people use pretty much this exact same argument to rationalize media piracy:

Originally Posted by bruceames.

You keep bringing scalpers into the discussion. Must be a big source of irritation for you. But it's not to TT. On the contrary, they likely appreciate all that notoriety because it's free advertising and it adds perceived value to their brand and makes it all the more desirable.

Yeah, sure. I bet they just love seeing someone get $320 for something they only got $30 for. Seeing all that dollar-share come out of their market and into somebody else's must be their daily joy, especially when it comes on the back of their work and at the expense of their customers' satisfaction. I'm sure it really makes them want to stick strictly to 3000 units; seeing the resale market balloon after TT runs out of copies must be powerful motivation to stay out of the way and not want to tap into that apparent continuing demand.

They love it sooo much, that they've tried to curb it by limiting purchases to 1 or 3 copies. Good grief.

You don't run a business, do you?

... and I'm not dragging scalpers into the discussion, they have always been a part of the discussion. Does it make you feel defensive?