Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[jshaide]

I guess the promos are going to be over 100 from now on.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by jshaide

I guess the promos are going to be over 100 from now on.

It's still 4 titles. Only diff is that none can be $24.95 titles.

[PGW]

I see the next autograph promotion is going to be this Wednesday, Feb. 11th - does that mean the March titles will also go up for sale that day? I don't care about the Oliver Stone autograph - but a better transfer of "Journey" is irresistible.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by PGW

I see the next autograph promotion is going to be this Wednesday, Feb. 11th - does that mean the March titles will also go up for sale that day? I don't care about the Oliver Stone autograph - but a better transfer of "Journey" is irresistible.

See first post in thread. March titles go up for preorder on the 25th, exactly two weeks from this Wednesday at 4:00pm Eastern.

[Mao]

Any idea when we'll see "Love And Death"? I know it had a late pre-order...

[jstxanothrxstory]

Ah, I see it's that time of the month where I ask for suggestions as to which TT titles to blind buy, even though I still haven't even watched any of the ones I ordered last month.

[deltatauhobbit]

Well, another promo to pass on for me and another one for someone else to appreciate. While Oliver Stone would be a cool sig, I have zero interest in Heaven and Earth, not really a Vietnam war film fan (other than Full Metal Jacket).

[lilboyblu]

Originally Posted by deltatauhobbit

Well, another promo to pass on for me and another one for someone else to appreciate. While Oliver Stone would be a cool sig, I have zero interest in Heaven and Earth, not really a Vietnam war film fan (other than Full Metal Jacket).

Same. Now if it was a signed copy of Seizure...

[jshaide]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

It's still 4 titles. Only diff is that none can be $24.95 titles.

I suppose, but it also means you can't squeeze in a 35 buck one to too yourself over

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by jshaide

I suppose, but it also means you can't squeeze in a 35 buck one to too yourself over

That's true, but there's only about 5 of those anyway, and those releases are ancient.

[GenPion]

Originally Posted by BobbyB

Thanks. I DO buy other movies. In fact, we just saw Sony release "My Best Friend's Wedding" (actually remastered in 4K) and Fox release "Working Girl" last week--2 great catalog titles which I scooped up in a heartbeat.

It's not about price...it's about value! I've dropped over $100 for an individual title many times in the past. I owned a great Japanese CAV LD of Dawn of the Dead with a beautiful gatefold jacket and re-purchased it again by Elite Entertainment. I still own $100 boxed sets of most Disney classics on LD as well. I buy every Blu-Ray 3D version of movies I want which are always more expensive than the standard release. I import Disney 3D's like "Frozen" since Disney has decided to forego their American 3D audience (I suppose that is also "their decision" and I shouldn't be pissed about that one either...).

People waste WAY too much defensiveness regarding this company. The business model SUCKS, plain and simple! I'm sorry if I don't find the same excitement for a company which, by its very business model, creates artificially strong interest and inflated prices for catalog titles which otherwise would cost one-third the price. The history of buying movies never included running to a website and refreshing the page continuously and buying before the scant 3,000 units were depleted.

And as I already mentioned, I HAVE bought several of their discs...it doesn't mean I will defend the idiotic business model. And one of the titles I spent nearly $35 for--"Journey to the Center of the Earth"--is now being re-released with a new mastering after duping folks the first time.

I'm not going to get into this discussion too much right now... but I will say this. Do you realize that some catalog releases only sell around 1,000 copies? And some of the ones that sell well only sell 3,000 or so? And some of those films end up having to sell for $5-10 and the studios printed more copies than what they can move.

What happens is that the studios (Sony, for example) decide they see no point in remastering or even releasing movies that are catalog titles on Blu-ray. They don't even think it's worth their time.

So when a company like Twilight Time comes around and releases actual high quality Blu-ray releases, which they often get studios to remaster, and are available as the only Blu-ray editions worldwide (for many of these films), it's actually a great thing for fans of films looking to have a film-like/high-quality presentation of many classics and also overlooked gems.

Most of the films released by Twilight Time -- including the great ones and the award winners -- might not even be out on Blu-ray if it were for not for their efforts and existence. And part of the reason Twilight Time can survive and continue to release films this way is because they found a business model that works for them.

[nitin]

Originally Posted by GenPion

If anyone on here is planning to get in on the promotion on Wed. but who doesn't care as much specifically about the signature (but wants the movie), I have a like-new copy of Heaven and Earth I could trade + I could trade something else on Blu-ray or the like to make it a better deal for someone. I really want a signed copy but can't afford to order this Wed.

where are you located?

[GenPion]

Originally Posted by nitin

where are you located?

I'm in the US. Just can't afford an order right now...

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by GenPion

I'm not going to get into this discussion too much right now... but I will say this. Do you realize that some catalog releases only sell around 1,000 copies? And some of the ones that sell well only sell 3,000 or so? And some of those films end up having to sell for $5-10 and the studios printed more copies than what they can move.

And what makes you think then that if some titles sell only 1000-2000 copies at the price that this company is asking for that there is no bigger market out there? I fail to see the correlation.

Originally Posted by GenPion

What happens is that the studios (Sony, for example) decide they see no point in remastering or even releasing movies that are catalog titles on Blu-ray. They don't even think it's worth their time.

Precisely the opposite is happening -- titles are constantly remastered. In fact, amongst the majors Sony arguably has the biggest pool of catalog 4K remasters. And if you don't think that there is something strange in the fact that said remasters are appearing all over Europe as other majors release Blu-ray tiles while in the U.S. many are locked in this "limited-only" business deal, then you clearly aren't paying attention. And I know that you are.

Originally Posted by GenPion

So when a company like Twilight Time comes around and releases actual high quality Blu-ray releases, which they often get studios to remaster, and are available as the only Blu-ray editions worldwide (for many of these films), it's actually a great thing for fans of films looking to have a film-like/high-quality presentation of many classics and also overlooked gems.

Let's get one thing clear here: The high-quality releases -- which feature transfers struck from high-quality remasters -- are not done by the company. They are done by the content owners. Everything else is open field -- they use what is available. The same high-quality titles also went through companies like Image Entertainment. Example: Against All Odds Blu-ray.

Now, there are companies that have invested in serious projects and have produced beautiful releases. Criterion's work on Michael Cimino's Heaven's Gate immediately comes to mind.

Originally Posted by GenPion

Most of the films released by Twilight Time -- including the great ones and the award winners -- might not even be out on Blu-ray if it were for not for their efforts and existence. And part of the reason Twilight Time can survive and continue to release films this way is because they found a business model that works for them.

Again, precisely the opposite is true. Considering the massive number of very deep catalog titles companies like Olive Films, Kino Lorber, and Scorpion Releasing have brought to the market, at this point I can't think of any titles that are impossible to bring to Blu-ray. (The only exceptions are probably "controversial" titles such as Ken Russell's The Devils). And on the international market the variety is even greater.

Pro-B

[Henke007]

Originally Posted by GenPion

If anyone on here is planning to get in on the promotion on Wed. but who doesn't care as much specifically about the signature (but wants the movie), I have a like-new copy of Heaven and Earth I could trade + I could trade something else on Blu-ray or the like to make it a better deal for someone. I really want a signed copy but can't afford to order this Wed.

i'll throw out a question also

I am located in Sweden and can offer the breaking bad steelbook box set I also have body double and christine sealed TT for trade. I am interested in a promo buy a 119.80 Wed 2/11

http://cdon.se/film/breaking_bad_-_c...-ray)-30401490

[dorothyv]

If anyone in the U.S. wants the promo BD that is being given away tomorrow (but doesn't want to purchase $120 worth of other TT titles), I'd be willing to put in a purchase and trade the promo for a (new or good-condition used) copy of Body Double, The Big Heat, Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia, Wild at Heart, or Rollerball.

[GenPion]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

And what makes you think then that if some titles sell only 1000-2000 copies at the price that this company is asking for that there is no bigger market out there? I fail to see the correlation.

The correlation is that for some films the market is perceived to be no bigger than those types of numbers. So for a catalog title to sell around that much through a big company.... they simply stop issuing the films themselves. That is why you see so many releases from companies like Twilight Time and Olive, who license the films and do most of the work themselves. I am not talking about "big" catalog titles as those sell better and are far more likely to be released by the film companies who made them.

Precisely the opposite is happening -- titles are constantly remastered. In fact, amongst the majors Sony arguably has the biggest pool of catalog 4K remasters. And if you don't think that there is something strange in the fact that said remasters are appearing all over Europe as other majors release Blu-ray tiles while in the U.S. many are locked in this "limited-only" business deal, then you clearly aren't paying attention. And I know that you are.

Sony is the biggest supporter of 4K media. They are pushing it more than anyone else is. I don't see this as surprising given their involvement in Blu-ray media and UHD 4K Blu-ray launching around the end of the year.

The masters you are referring to "appearing all over Europe" are only for a small percentage of films released by Twilight Time: Fright Night, Christine, As Good As It Gets, The Way We Were, Sleepless in Seattle, and a few others. MOST Twilight Time titles are only available from them and no other company WORLDWIDE.

To get another point across: some of those titles (Fright Night and Christine being obvious answers) Twilight Time is aware there is a good market for them and that they will sell out. They NEED titles like that to create good business revenue. They can even use some of those profits towards the release of other less successful films. Sony, on the other hand, didn't see marketability of Fright Night on Blu-ray... and missed out on their own stateside opportunity. Twilight Time arranged for the re-release and the inclusion of supplements (for the first time on any release). While the rest of the world got a barebones 25 GB disc with a weaker transfer and no HD audio. Also, taking into consideration that some foreign countries have bigger Blu-ray markets where certain films tend to sell better - and the fact that Sony followed on the heels of Twilight Time with a few releases of their own outside of the US is not that surprising.

Let's get one thing clear here: The high-quality releases -- which feature transfers struck from high-quality remasters -- are not done by the company. They are done by the content owners. Everything else is open field -- they use what is available. The same high-quality titles also went through companies like Image Entertainment. Example: Against All Odds Blu-ray.

Another thing to point out: Twilight Time has waited on materials to be available that are higher quality and seems to seek out strong masters where available. Olive Films, as an example you gave, I know they have issued a lot of releases that were from dated HD masters. The same goes for Kino Lorber. These might still be good releases that are worth investing in - especially for $15-20 a piece. However, they tend to be from older masters primarily and are also almost universally released on 25 GB discs. Twilight Time almost always does the opposite and you get much better bit-rates, 24 bit lossless audio, etc. They also throw in booklets and have added extras in many cases that might not have otherwise been included.

Granted, I know some of those other companies include extras on certain titles, but the point is that I think Twilight Time seems to invest more of a effort, IMO, to giving a film the best release possible. This my own opinion and I will hold by it.

Now, there are companies that have invested in serious projects and have produced beautiful releases. Criterion's work on Michael Cimino's Heaven's Gate immediately comes to mind.

Criterion releases sell well. They are not the norm of catalog titles for older classic films. Criterion does exceptional work 99.9% of the time. They are one of my favorite companies. However, they have a long establishment as one of the best film companies around and with that they have also carried a built in fan-base. They set the bar high on the criteria of what they even consider releasing and everyone who is a fan is aware of that factor.

Twilight Time issues a lot of films that have fans but do you see these as films Criterion might have licensed and released? Maybe a few. But they didn't. Twilight Time did and are the reason they are available on Blu-ray.

Again, precisely the opposite is true. Considering the massive number of very deep catalog titles companies like Olive Films, Kino Lorber, and Scorpion Releasing have brought to the market, at this point I can't think of any titles that are impossible to bring to Blu-ray. (The only exceptions are probably "controversial" titles such as Ken Russell's The Devils). And on the international market the variety is even greater.

Pro-B

I am thrilled that so many classic films are making their way to Blu-ray. Sure, it's a lot smaller of a market and fewer films are coming out than SHOULD be released, but there are still a lot of good options. The Blu-ray market is still good enough to exist. My main point was that big companies (such as Sony, one of the wealthiest corporations worldwide) don't see much point in doing such releases themselves when the market is somewhat limited at times.

We should be thankful for not only Twilight Time, but also the sorts of other small label companies you mention (like Olive and Kino). I just happen to think Twilight Time does the best job out of the three (and, in fact, I think they set the quality bar pretty high... a lot of the time I am more impressed with their encodes and presentations than I am with what major studios give as output) and that they DO release a lot of films that wouldn't otherwise have been released... just like the other two companies.

If your argument mainly stems from you wanting to defend other smaller labels and their output: fine. I am glad for the market that exists. Money can still be made on Blu-ray and I don't want the market to change where they stop releasing titles. But I do think Twilight Time's business model is not quite as crazy as some others do.

By the way, here are some stats on Twilight Time's catalog output:

157 film releases total (excluding the re-releases). Of those, 38 have seen a release in 1 other country worldwide. As for wider worldwide distribution, 30 have been released in more than one other territory. Many of those were only put out in 2-3 other countries though. The only ones with much wider releases overseas were some of the Sony titles.

Oh, and Twilight Time's release usually is the best worldwide for quality, if that matters to some. It does for me.

This means that 89 Twilight Time Blu-ray releases are the ONLY editions available in the entire world. Personally, I find that in itself to be a good indication of their worth.

[baheidstu]

Well put GenPion.

[bruceames]

As much as I appreciate Twilight Time's output, I prefer that they stick to the movies that likely never would have been released if not for them, and not be a more expensive option on mainstream and popular genre movies that only exists because of them (ie, if TT wouldn't have offered Sony top dollar for the rights to some of these movies, Sony would have released them themselves).

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

And what makes you think then that if some titles sell only 1000-2000 copies at the price that this company is asking for that there is no bigger market out there? I fail to see the correlation.

I think he's referring to the titles the studio put out themselves - and often even 1000 titles is an overestimate. When I worked at WHV some of our back-catalogue titles sold considerable less than a thousand copies (one major title only sold 650 copies), which was the reason they were eventually dumped on the market for $5-10. The low price point was more often an indication of how tough they were to sell in a general market than of success. We were having to pay warehouse costs on dead stock that simply wasn't moving.

Precisely the opposite is happening -- titles are constantly remastered.

But the remastering isn't being driven by home video, it's being driven by HD television and the increasing difficulty of selling non-HD mastered titles to networks, thus cutting off a huge revenue stream and safety net for studios. Remastering back-catalogue titles is a financial necessity but a hugely expensive one, and if they can get some money back by sub-licensing them at no risk, it helps subsidise it. Where there are viable titles they'll release them themselves (such as Lawrence of Arabia), but sometimes that's only in territories where the film did exceptionally good business on DVD (as with the German releases of Fright Night and Christine).

With every studio cutting back on staff in their home video divisions as the value of the market for physical media declines (another 8% drop on sales and 14% on physical rentals over the last year), it's all about minimising risk these days - especially when badly performing titles can not only lose you your job but lead to a whole department being closed and farmed out to another studio as with Paramount moving their back-catalogue titles to Warner's ever-shrinking home video division (and Warners have already announced that their home entertainment division will bear the brunt of the 1000 job cuts the studio has planned).