Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[wxman2003]

Originally Posted by Ant1010

That’s great but you haven’t provided a “better” cable. I listed what I used and you’re talking about price lol

Monoprice $6 premium certified cable will be just as good as any $400 cable. You do realize with digital signals, a higher price cable is not going to make those bits look brighter or sharper. Either you have a signal, or you do not. This is not analog.

[wxman2003]

I have been playing around with the 9000 on my E6. Selecting OLED for display type and then turning HDR optimizer off and on produces very little change. However, when I set the 9000 to basic luminance which is 500 nits, the change is dramatic. The first pic is HDR optimizer off, 2nd is with it on, and third in with the OPPO 203 forced to HDR. So it appears setting the Panny to basic luminance is best for HDR10 on the E6, as with optimizer off, it looks like the OPPO 203. The DV version of the same scene, 4th image, looks similar to the image with HDR optimizer on. DV still looks the best with this scene. So for DV movies, I will let the player play DV. For HDR, I will set it to basic luminance and use HDR optimizer. And against all previous advice, set color gamut to wide for HDR on the E6, not normal. The images below are set to wide and still don't have as much punch as DV.

BTW, there is no difference with DV on either player. The horse scene is not clipped. Luckily the E6 can't use the low latency DV profile. What is odd, that same horse scene in HDR10 with display type set to OLED, there is massive clipping on my E6. Looks like the low latency DV images. Setting it to basic luminance fixes it. My E6 has a peak luminance between 600 and 650 nits. Setting the display to OLED in the player clips everything from 600 to 1000 nits. Setting it to basic luminance only allows peak brightness in HDR scene to max out at 500 nits. So I sacrifice not pushing peak highlights to 600 to 650 nits, but now can see all the detail. Another advantage setting to basic luminance, is it lifts the near black detail when turning on HDR optimizer. When setting display to OLED, and turning HDR optimizer on, it has no effect on the near blacks.

[GenPion]

wxman2003, I want to thank you for your post. I will use the same settings for my Panasonic 9000. I have the same display and it sounds like it’s better to leave at basic luminance over oled luminance (as the E6P is a earlier OLED).

To those of you bemoaning the lack of SACD and DVD Audio playback on the Panasonic (or region free capability), try getting a Sony X800 to pair with it. I’m using both players myself. This allows me to set the Sony to Region B by default (can switch as needed) and since most of the best SACD/DVD Audio titles have surround sound in my setup the Sony will suffice for most discs. I know a few stereo only discs won’t get that added benefit of a high end DAC and analogue playback but that’s a small sacrifice. The Panasonic 9000 will still be my default player for most music.

Certainly a wonderful alternative to a Oppo 205 (and the lack of the dynamic tone mapping HDR10 on the Oppo is a major drawback for certain displays). I can’t believe that player can go for $4,000 or so while getting the Panasonic UB-9000 and Sony X800 region free yields the same or better results (with the exception of a handful of stereo SACD discs) for about $1,200 or so. Just a suggestion some might want to consider.

[Geoff D]

Yeah, I think the 1000-nit level for the OLED screen setting on the Optimiser was rather optimistic, and still is e.g. Vincent Teoh sez that the CX he reviewed topped out at ~680 nits peak, with 120 nits for full field white (though that's still typical for OLED owing to the brightness limiter). The high end Panny OLEDs can reach nearer to 1000-nit peaks, but as they have their own 'Optimiser' built in anyway then it's useless having it in the player in that case.

Most discs from Universal, Disnee, Paramount and Fox are mastered with 1000-nit display level metadata so if the player is set to OLED then turning on the Optimiser will do nothing, literally nothing with those discs even though many OLEDs will not be able to reach that 1000-nit peak.

[Robert Zohn]

@Geoff D, very true, but as you said this is only relevant to discs mastered at 1,000 nits and from the research I've done most titles are mastered at 4,000 nits.

But instead of researching or being concerned about how your discs and streaming content were mastered why not just enjoy every 4K HDR disc and streamed content regardless if it's mastered at 4,000 nits or even 10,000 nits properly tone mapped to 1,000 nits preserving the entire dynamic tonal range and all of the color volume matched to your OLED TV.

[bnmdjm]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

@Geoff D, very true, but as you said this is only relevant to discs mastered at 1,000 nits and from the research I've done most titles are mastered at 4,000 nits.

But instead of researching all of your discs and streaming content to see how they were mastered why not just enjoy every 4K HDR disc and streamed content regardless if it's mastered at 4,000 nits or even 10,000 nits properly tone mapped to 1,000 nits preserving the entire dynamic tonal range and all of the color volume matched to your OLED TV.

I think that's the point - most OLED panels (all LG and Sony anyway) are only capable of 600-700 nits max so unless you set the Optimizer up to scale to 500 nits instead of 1000 like the OLED setting will do, you won't be preserving the entire dynamic tonal range and will clip everything above 600-700 nits up to 1000 nits.

[Robert Zohn]

I like that ^^ idea, but also consider that if you have an OLED TV have the HDR Optimizer set to TV type "OLED" all HDR content will be tone mapped to 1000 nits and your OLED TV can easily handle the 1,000 nit peak luminance and apply it's tone mapping from their.

Sorry if I misunderstood Geoff's post.

I'll test our OLED TVs with the HDR Optimizer set to High Luminance projector and see how it compares to the "OLED" setting. I think it's best to disable the OLED TV tone mapping if you will feed the TV 500 nits peak luminance.

[Mierzwiak]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Most discs from Universal, Disnee, Paramount and Fox are mastered with 1000-nit display level metadata so if the player is set to OLED then turning on the Optimiser will do nothing, literally nothing with those discs even though many OLEDs will not be able to reach that 1000-nit peak.

It's true, but also most of the discs mastered to 1000 nits have peak brightness around at 500-700 nits, so it's not like we OLED owners are losing something important there.

[tama]

I know I've been told that at the least the B7 OLED I own is around 730-750 nits.

After reading this thread this morning I set Panny to basic luminance and played around with several titles mastered in 1000 nits.

Based on what I'm seeing i.cant say I see a dramatic difference as those members with the E6 model (year models before mine), but there is a slight change. Those last little tail end tips of clipping of highlights are now visible. The overall image at first seems to dim at first, which is opposite of what would happen with 4000 nit disc like Sony and WB where the overall image became brighter as the LG tone mapping wasn't bringing the overall image down, but that could actually be the color volume being a bit richer. Thinking like animate changes with different gamma settings. Not the same just trying to explain.

Also wonder if something else is being incorrectly sacrificed just for that rid bit of highlight detail. Overall image looks a bit dimmer this way, at least on this B7.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Mierzwiak

It's true, but also most of the discs mastered to 1000 nits have peak brightness around at 500-700 nits, so it's not like we OLED owners are losing something important there.

I didn't say that they all have actual content that peaks at 1000, I said that's what the mastering display metadata is set to (though you'd be surprised at how many discs DO get on on near 1000 nits MaxCLL). I'm just making the point, for what seems like the umpteenth time, that the Optimiser in itself will not do anything for that 1000-nit mastering display content - of which there are literally hundreds of such discs on UHD - when set to OLED because 1000 nits is the lowest limit of what the OLED-set Optimiser is operating at. Why not leave it on all the time anyway? See below, and you yourself are aware of how the Optimiser struggles with content that's very bright but essentially has no more than SDR levels of highlight information, e.g. Pacific Rim.

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

@Geoff D, very true, but as you said this is only relevant to discs mastered at 1,000 nits and from the research I've done most titles are mastered at 4,000 nits.

But instead of researching or being concerned about how your discs and streaming content were mastered why not just enjoy every 4K HDR disc and streamed content regardless if it's mastered at 4,000 nits or even 10,000 nits properly tone mapped to 1,000 nits preserving the entire dynamic tonal range and all of the color volume matched to your OLED TV.

Did you miss the part where I said "most discs from Universal, Disnee, Paramount and Fox" are mastered to 1000 nits? I own almost 550 UHD discs, I'm not making this stuff up. Warners and Sony are the ones who routinely set 4000-nit mastering display metadata - upon which point the Optimiser will actually work when set to OLED - with some grades being well in excess of that for their MaxCLL brightness, and Lionsgate have a random mix of 1000/4000 mastered titles.

As for the sales pitch, one of the reasons I (re)bought the 820 was for the awesome metadata analysis info function, there are very few players on the market that can do this so I thought you'd want to extol those virtues, not brush them under the carpet? I understand and appreciate that the Optimiser is there to give people an easy life when it comes to HDR, that they can set and forget, but since when was the easiest option always the best one? I'm an enthusiast, not a casual observer.

In any case, I would NEVER leave the Optimiser on when it's not needed because of the mild banding that it can introduce into the signal. If a TV is strangling the bit depth in their internal processing already (naming no names) then of course this won't become apparent, but on the ZD9 with its 14-bit pipeline it's there alright on the Panny: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...5#post15996755

I even took another photo a while ago to show this effect, using some colour ramps on the S&M UHD disc. This is what happens when the Optimiser is turned on and the signal goes through that specific pathway inside the Panny, and it's there whether the content is being tone mapped or not:

Off



On

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by Mierzwiak

It's true, but also most of the discs mastered to 1000 nits have peak brightness around at 500-700 nits, so it's not like we OLED owners are losing something important there.

I was only able to find one file that shows the peak luminance that 4K HDR BD titles were mastered and it only lists films through February 2018. But you can see that about 1/2 of the titles were mastered on grading monitors at 4,000 nits or higher. Here's the link to the spread sheet that lists BD titles and how they were mastered.

Also as it was just brought up setting your Panasonic HDR Optimizer to 500 nits may deliver the best HDR image on OLED TVs.

[Geoff D]

^ Basically, if the content is dithered properly then the Optimiser doesn't add any more visible banding, this is why I use it with Sony's Light Cannon™ UHD grades because of how the grain acts as a natural dithering agent. But when it's not dithered properly and the content is already on the edge of posterisation (which happens more often on UHD than people may think) and/or doesn't have a lot of grain then the Optimiser's added banding can become apparent. Well, it's apparent to an 'enthusiast' like me anyway, but that's why I'm here: I'm not about shop floor platitudes designed to shift boxes and separate wealthy clients from their money. The core of the matter is what concerns me, anything else is secondary. Maybe that's why I wasn't the best salesman back when I sold TVs

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

I was only able to find one file that shows the peak luminance that 4K HDR BD titles were mastered and it only lists films through February 2018. But you can see that about 1/2 of the titles were mastered on grading monitors at 4,000 nits or higher. Here's the link to the spread sheet that lists BD titles and how they were mastered.

Also as it was just brought up setting your Panasonic HDR Optimizer to 500 nits may deliver the best HDR image on OLED TVs.

152 titles (not including all ten episodes of westworld, lol) out of 600+ discs worldwide isn't exactly the best sample size. That list wasn't comprehensive even before it was retired.

[Robert Zohn]

@Geoff D, I don't doubt what you or your test results indicate, but I very frequently switch the HD Optimizer on and off to see how it effects the image on my JVC NX9 and several Sony and LG OLED TVs and I have never seen any banding introduced.

I believe what you are saying, but it must be so minimal that not even my trained eyes can see even when I'm critically looking at the images.

[Mierzwiak]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

But you can see that about 1/2 of the titles were mastered on grading monitors at 4,000 nits or higher.

I know, but it's just what studio monitor is capable of, it doesn't mean the film itself have highlight details that bright.

Also as it was just brought up setting your Panasonic HDR Optimizer to 500 nits may deliver the best HDR image on OLED TVs.

I have tested this setting long time ago, I don't like how it dims the highlights.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

@Geoff D, I don't doubt what you or your test results indicate, but I very frequently switch the HD Optimizer on and off to see how it effects the image on my JVC NX9 and several Sony and LG OLED TVs and I have never seen any banding introduced.

I believe what you are saying, but it must be so minimal that not even my trained eyes can see even when I'm critically looking at the images.

And I don't doubt you don't see it, as I said not all content will expose it, anything that's been competently mastered should be fine (and some people, not saying you, just run their displays with the Smooth Gradation enabled all the time anyway).

[tama]

Originally Posted by Mierzwiak

I know, but it's just what studio monitor is capable of, it doesn't mean the film itself have highlight details that bright.

I have tested this setting long time ago, I don't like how it dims the highlights.

I'm testing Avengers 1 now. It dims a bit but it brings back a tad bit of info that seems to be clipping both under OLED luminance and with the Optimizer off. I wouldn't want something bright for the sake of being bright if it's losing a bit of info there.

I'm not seeing a major difference, but a minor one that looks to help a bit at least with my model.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

@Geoff D, I don't doubt what you or your test results indicate, but I very frequently switch the HD Optimizer on and off to see how it effects the image on my JVC NX9 and several Sony and LG OLED TVs and I have never seen any banding introduced.

I believe what you are saying, but it must be so minimal that not even my trained eyes can see even when I'm critically looking at the images.

And it could just be something you might see that pops up very rarely depending on the set-up, calibration, and certain scene for a couple of seconds, etc. I very, very rarely notice banding on a UHD BD (although admittingly, I have not watched as many UHD discs as others - I still mostly watch 1080p because of my content preferences). However, the last disc I watched that had some was The Hunt for Red October, but that is also source related.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by tama

I'm testing Avengers 1 now. It dims a bit but it brings back a tad bit of info that seems to be clipping both under OLED luminance and with the Optimizer off. I wouldn't want something bright for the sake of being bright if it's losing a bit of info there.

I'm not seeing a major difference, but a minor one that looks to help a bit at least with my model.

If some titles have a really high average brightness then yeah, using the 500-nit mode may well dim it globally.

[sapiendut]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

@Geoff D, I don't doubt what you or your test results indicate, but I very frequently switch the HD Optimizer on and off to see how it effects the image on my JVC NX9 and several Sony and LG OLED TVs and I have never seen any banding introduced.

I believe what you are saying, but it must be so minimal that not even my trained eyes can see even when I'm critically looking at the images.

Neither have I and I always try to look for it.