Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[cjake]

Originally Posted by rustyk

Thanks for the reply. I'm aware that the 420 does tone mapping, however my question is whether there is any benefit to using the 820 with a display that doesn't support Dolby Vision?

I believe the only difference is that the UB820 supports Dolby Vision and has 7.1 analog audio outputs.

If you don't use either feature, then the UB820 doesn't provide any additional benefit.

Of course, future needs should be considered when deciding.

[rustyk]

Originally Posted by cjake

I believe the only difference is that the UB820 supports Dolby Vision and has 7.1 analog audio outputs.

If you don't use either feature, then the UB820 doesn't provide any additional benefit.

Of course, future needs should be considered when deciding.

Thanks, again I'm grateful for the replies. I'm aware of the differences between the UB820 and UB420 and I know I don't have a DV display so on paper I don't use either feature.

However, I'm trying to get to the bottom of whether the UB820 can leverage a dolby vision source and give an enhanced output to a non dolby vision display? As far as I understand it, DV is 12 bit and is dynamically adjusted per scene, so technically it is an enhanced source compared to HDR10.

I have no plans to change the OLED and I don't think we'll see any projectors any time soon which support Dolby vision, so I suppose the question becomes, can the UB820 take a dolby vision input, enhance it/tone map it dynamically and output it to an SDR2020 (or HDR10/HLG) display?

From the comment by Bigbro above, it sounds like as soon as you turn on DV mode you lose some of the functionality of the UB820.

Can you even turn DV mode on on the UB820 if it's not connected to a DV compatible display? Given the issues that Sony X700 users have with DV mode, I wonder if it's either on or off, relies on the end to end HMDI handshake (read via EDID) and that's it, end of story. No 'tampering' in between.

If the answer to any of the above is no, then there is no point in me getting the UB820, I may as well get the UB420 for half the price and upgrade to a better version when I get a newer display that supports DV.

[King Crimson]

Originally Posted by rustyk

Thanks, again I'm grateful for the replies. I'm aware of the differences between the UB820 and UB420 and I know I don't have a DV display so on paper I don't use either feature.

However, I'm trying to get to the bottom of whether the UB820 can leverage a dolby vision source and give an enhanced output to a non dolby vision display? As far as I understand it, DV is 12 bit and is dynamically adjusted per scene, so technically it is an enhanced source compared to HDR10.

I have no plans to change the OLED and I don't think we'll see any projectors any time soon which support Dolby vision, so I suppose the question becomes, can the UB820 take a dolby vision input, enhance it/tone map it dynamically and output it to an SDR2020 (or HDR10/HLG) display?

From the comment by Bigbro above, it sounds like as soon as you turn on DV mode you lose some of the functionality of the UB820.

Can you even turn DV mode on on the UB820 if it's not connected to a DV compatible display? Given the issues that Sony X700 users have with DV mode, I wonder if it's either on or off, relies on the end to end HMDI handshake (read via EDID) and that's it, end of story. No 'tampering' in between.

If the answer to any of the above is no, then there is no point in me getting the UB820, I may as well get the UB420 for half the price and upgrade to a better version when I get a newer display that supports DV.

You can turn DV and HDR10+ off an on in the 820 menu.

[Sailor09]

Originally Posted by rustyk

Thanks, again I'm grateful for the replies. I'm aware of the differences between the UB820 and UB420 and I know I don't have a DV display so on paper I don't use either feature.

However, I'm trying to get to the bottom of whether the UB820 can leverage a dolby vision source and give an enhanced output to a non dolby vision display? As far as I understand it, DV is 12 bit and is dynamically adjusted per scene, so technically it is an enhanced source compared to HDR10.

I have no plans to change the OLED and I don't think we'll see any projectors any time soon which support Dolby vision, so I suppose the question becomes, can the UB820 take a dolby vision input, enhance it/tone map it dynamically and output it to an SDR2020 (or HDR10/HLG) display?

From the comment by Bigbro above, it sounds like as soon as you turn on DV mode you lose some of the functionality of the UB820.

Can you even turn DV mode on on the UB820 if it's not connected to a DV compatible display? Given the issues that Sony X700 users have with DV mode, I wonder if it's either on or off, relies on the end to end HMDI handshake (read via EDID) and that's it, end of story. No 'tampering' in between.

If the answer to any of the above is no, then there is no point in me getting the UB820, I may as well get the UB420 for half the price and upgrade to a better version when I get a newer display that supports DV.

In order for DV to be functional, the WHOLE chain from source to target has to be DV-capable. If the TV is not DV-capable, it does not matter if you enable/disable it on the player, you will NOT get DV, only HDR10. And that applies toany HDR TV or UHD player. If you have a receiver in between and the video signal is going thru it, it also has to be DV capable.
As for the tone mapping, the 820 will be capable of doing its "magic" on the HDR10 part of the signal of a DV disc, when the DV "chain" is broken (when the TV is not DV capable and/or when DV is set to off on the player).

[cjake]

Originally Posted by rustyk

Thanks, again I'm grateful for the replies. I'm aware of the differences between the UB820 and UB420 and I know I don't have a DV display so on paper I don't use either feature.

However, I'm trying to get to the bottom of whether the UB820 can leverage a dolby vision source and give an enhanced output to a non dolby vision display? As far as I understand it, DV is 12 bit and is dynamically adjusted per scene, so technically it is an enhanced source compared to HDR10.

I have no plans to change the OLED and I don't think we'll see any projectors any time soon which support Dolby vision, so I suppose the question becomes, can the UB820 take a dolby vision input, enhance it/tone map it dynamically and output it to an SDR2020 (or HDR10/HLG) display?

From the comment by Bigbro above, it sounds like as soon as you turn on DV mode you lose some of the functionality of the UB820.

Can you even turn DV mode on on the UB820 if it's not connected to a DV compatible display? Given the issues that Sony X700 users have with DV mode, I wonder if it's either on or off, relies on the end to end HMDI handshake (read via EDID) and that's it, end of story. No 'tampering' in between.

If the answer to any of the above is no, then there is no point in me getting the UB820, I may as well get the UB420 for half the price and upgrade to a better version when I get a newer display that supports DV.

The HDR Optimizer is disabled for Dolby Vision input.
The SDR/BT2020 output mode does not function for Dolby Vision input.

Dolby Vision can only be processed and output as Dolby Vision. This requires a Dolby Vision capable display.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Again, I can only surmise that the overly sharpened luma and chroma on the Panny's upscaling is what gives it so more 'pop'.

I haven't really dug into this yet, but someone on another forum brought this up. He claims it's even on 1080p output although certain setting adjustments help alleviate it to some extent.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

I haven't really dug into this yet, but someone on another forum brought this up. He claims it's even on 1080p output although certain setting adjustments help alleviate it to some extent.

I didn't specifically test 1080p output on the (820), as I was running it on auto resolution (so it sent my display 2160/24, etc.), but the "enhanced color" effect was there on 2160 scaling.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

I haven't really dug into this yet, but someone on another forum brought this up. He claims it's even on 1080p output although certain setting adjustments help alleviate it to some extent.

Not surprised. The chroma upsampling is a key USP that Panasonic keep touting so it's no surprise it's there on everything, and other non-4K content is still encoded in 4:2:0 after all so it still needs upsampling at some point(s) in the chain.

On my 2011 Panny BDT310 Blu-ray player (no UHD/4K) it's got three modes for engaging their special sauce chroma upsampling: Off, Normal or Advanced. When engaging the 'Advanced' setting on the 310 it does the exact thing as what the Panny UHD players' chroma does out of the box: makes the 24p Spears & Munsil chroma upsampling test look perfect but adds some obvious ringing to contrasting horizontal areas of colour, whereas the 310's 'Normal' setting adds milder halos, and 'Off' adds none at all but the upsampling pattern is a touch more jagged.

For the UHD players to remove the horizontal ringing means setting chroma sharpness down to -4, but when you do this it affects the brightness of the chroma far more than it does the 'Off' setting on the 310, making it look a fair bit dimmer, so it's not ideal. If they had a way to disable the 'Advanced'-style upsampling without affecting chroma brightness quite so much - just as the Edge Correction to +1 removes the mild luma ringing on the UHD decks - then I'd be much less inclined to keep banging on about it like I do.

[edit] And, not to get under the skin of those who likes their Pannys, this is why I prefer what the OPPO does: I get that good solid chroma brightness without the horizontal ringing, I get a perfectly defined sharpness pattern with no ringing and no need to adjust any settings out of the box, and most crucially of all it doesn't make 480i content look really badly deinterlaced. I just tried the SD 480i 'Hockey' vid on the S&M Blu on all three players: the OPPO is terrifically clean and well-defined for such a janky source with barely a jaggie in sight. The 310 is alright, looked a bit jagged but nothing majorly wrong. But the UB390, **** me, it's like the kids are holding hockey sticks made out of Duplo blocks.

I know that David M mentioned in his 820 review that this bug only affected SD 480i content when being played back from a Blu-ray disc, but if I play the same test on the 480i DVD that's included with the S&M Blu then I see the same junk on the UB390, it's full of jaggies that the OPPO smoothes out brilliantly. The 390 is not the 820 to be sure, but I wouldn't bet against the 480i bug still being present on the 2018 decks seeing as everything else is so similar. Does anyone care a jot about DVD any more? Not really, which is why this has gone virtually unnoticed on Panasonic's UHD players.

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Does anyone care a jot about DVD any more? Not really, which is why this has gone virtually unnoticed on Panasonic's UHD players.

I-I do...

[Geoff D]

No you don't, you silly billy!

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

No you don't, you silly billy!

With all the content - especially animation both Eastern and Western - that hasn't and quite possibly never will be released on a later format, I kind of have to.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Not surprised. The chroma upsampling is a key USP that Panasonic keep touting so it's no surprise it's there on everything, and other non-4K content is still encoded in 4:2:0 after all so it still needs upsampling at some point(s) in the chain.

On my 2011 Panny BDT310 Blu-ray player (no UHD/4K) it's got three modes for engaging their special sauce chroma upsampling: Off, Normal or Advanced. When engaging the 'Advanced' setting on the 310 it does the exact thing as what the Panny UHD players' chroma does out of the box: makes the 24p Spears & Munsil chroma upsampling test look perfect but adds some obvious ringing to contrasting horizontal areas of colour, whereas the 310's 'Normal' setting adds milder halos, and 'Off' adds none at all but the upsampling pattern is a touch more jagged.

For the UHD players to remove the horizontal ringing means setting chroma sharpness down to -4, but when you do this it affects the brightness of the chroma far more than it does the 'Off' setting on the 310, making it look a fair bit dimmer, so it's not ideal. If they had a way to disable the 'Advanced'-style upsampling without affecting chroma brightness quite so much - just as the Edge Correction to +1 removes the mild luma ringing on the UHD decks - then I'd be much less inclined to keep banging on about it like I do.

[edit] And, not to get under the skin of those who likes their Pannys, this is why I prefer what the OPPO does: I get that good solid chroma brightness without the horizontal ringing, I get a perfectly defined sharpness pattern with no ringing and no need to adjust any settings out of the box, and most crucially of all it doesn't make 480i content look really badly deinterlaced. I just tried the SD 480i 'Hockey' vid on the S&M Blu on all three players: the OPPO is terrifically clean and well-defined for such a janky source with barely a jaggie in sight. The 310 is alright, looked a bit jagged but nothing majorly wrong. But the UB390, **** me, it's like the kids are holding hockey sticks made out of Duplo blocks.

I know that David M mentioned in his 820 review that this bug only affected SD 480i content when being played back from a Blu-ray disc, but if I play the same test on the 480i DVD that's included with the S&M Blu then I see the same junk on the UB390, it's full of jaggies that the OPPO smoothes out brilliantly. The 390 is not the 820 to be sure, but I wouldn't bet against the 480i bug still being present on the 2018 decks seeing as everything else is so similar. Does anyone care a jot about DVD any more? Not really, which is why this has gone virtually unnoticed on Panasonic's UHD players.

I definitely care about DVD upconversion.

Interestingly, my first-generation Panny DMP-BD10A (which I still use in the bedroom) exhibited deinterlacing problems as you described -- HORRIBLE aliasing, macroblocking (especially in reds) and other artifacting that made DVDs difficult to watch on, at the time, a 50-inch screen. Switching to the OPPO BDP-83 took DVD watching to an entirely different level so far as upscaling to 1080p was concerned...

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by MechaGodzilla

With all the content - especially animation both Eastern and Western - that hasn't and quite possibly never will be released on a later format, I kind of have to.

It's animation that first tipped me off to this problem. I put in Archer Season 7 (Fox have stopped issuing the show on Blu-ray, so DVDs it is) and could not believe how shitty it looked on the UB900, so jagged and poorly deinterlaced. I tried all the resolution options from 480p on up and nothing changed so I thought it was the DVD and didn't think too much more about it, reasoning that studios are putting less effort into DVD nowadays etc etc.

But when I got the Sony X800 I wanted to try an NTSC disc in it and popped in Archer and couldn't believe what I was seeing, it looked so much tidier. Ditto for the OPPO when I decided to get one of those. The UB900 has long been sold but I thought I'd get another Panny for cheap, to have another backup like, and it's got the exact same problem with 480i stuff. I want to get a look at one of the 2018 models so I can know for sure if they have the same bug, if I can get a 420 for the right price then I'll go for it.

[King Crimson]

Just finished Captain Harlock Space Pirate dvd collection and having watched the initial 10 episodes through my One S. The subtitles actually looking proper resolution and the upscaling are wonderful. The upscaling clarity is comparable to watching other 70s and 80s anime restored on blu ray. Very filmic and I really appreciate the smoothing of the subtitles on my Eclipse series and anime dvds. I haven't played my SD on Blu-ray content but I am interested in seeing how it compares.

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It's animation that first tipped me off to this problem. I put in Archer Season 7 (Fox have stopped issuing the show on Blu-ray, so DVDs it is) and could not believe how shitty it looked on the UB900, so jagged and poorly deinterlaced. I tried all the resolution options from 480p on up and nothing changed so I thought it was the DVD and didn't think too much more about it, reasoning that studios are putting less effort into DVD nowadays etc etc.

But when I got the Sony X800 I wanted to try an NTSC disc in it and popped in Archer and couldn't believe what I was seeing, it looked so much tidier. Ditto for the OPPO when I decided to get one of those. The UB900 has long been sold but I thought I'd get another Panny for cheap, to have another backup like, and it's got the exact same problem with 480i stuff. I want to get a look at one of the 2018 models so I can know for sure if they have the same bug, if I can get a 420 for the right price then I'll go for it.

I recall reading a post of yours where you talked about Archer and how that was how you discovered this.

I hope you get your hands on one of the new players and report back. I'm almost tempted to get a 9000 (if not that, the 820), but that's way too much to pay for a player with this issue (here in Swedenland it's more expensive than both the Oppo 203 and the Pioneer LX500 - both of which are universal players, unlike the Panny!), if indeed it persists on this latest generation of players.

[LordoftheRings]

What is DVD and that 480i/480p stuff? Can it do 3D?

[ray0414]

I watched Justice League 4k BD last night and playing with the hdr optimizer, it was very noticeable that the hdr optimizer was causing pretty severe clipping of bright highlights. In particular, the sun in the sky was nice and defined and retaining color with optimizer turned off, but turned on the sun would turn into a Giant white blob approximately 3x the size and lose its "beams/rays" in the process. This is the only movie so far where I've seen it CAUSE clipping rather than fix it.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by ray0414

I watched Justice League 4k BD last night and playing with the hdr optimizer, it was very noticeable that the hdr optimizer was causing pretty severe clipping of bright highlights. In particular, the sun in the sky was nice and defined and retaining color with optimizer turned off, but turned on the sun would turn into a Giant white blob approximately 3x the size and lose its "beams/rays" in the process. This is the only movie so far where I've seen it CAUSE clipping rather than fix it.

It's funny that so many Blu-ray reviewers on the Internet (various forums) don't get the screen aspect ratio of this 4K Blu correct.
Here they do; got it correct for the 4K Blu-ray.

[MAUL xx]

While enjoying the UB820 I've ran into a few minor annoyances.

1. Auto shut down. The player automatically powers off when left idle for what seems a short amount of time. How do you prevent this? I don't see a setting for it.

2. When playing TV shows on BD I get a box displaying on the top right of the screen about the format & such. It stays there until I press a button. How do you prevent this? I'll try to take a picture next time I run into this.

I am on the latest firmware.

[sapiendut]

Anybody successfully play 4K mkv that is NOT in 2 channels? When I play an mkv files, first it can’t play anything outside Dolby or DTS (no DTS-HDMA), ehen I play 4K mkv, anything outside 2 ch won’t have sound.