Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

How much is roughly the video gear you use to calibrate your display?

Is it less expensive than this ... $40
• http://spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio...k-3rd-edition/

* Bonus:
https://www.biaslighting.com/?ref=afsvuka9nd

You don't use a disc to 'calibrate' a display by itself. I use a ColorMunki Display as a colourimeter and a ColorMunki Photo as a spectro to profile the meter to my specific TV, using HCFR software to measure the results.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by dontpokethebear3893

I am surprised that you keep saying that Dynamic Tonemapping makes HDR brighter on your LG and that it is too dim and unpleasant without it. Here is Vincent showing directly how the APL is darkened to preserve highlight detail when DTM is enabled on LG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=635&...ature=youtu.be

Make sure to see the "10:35" timestamp.

My description of "crushed" midtones is displayed perfectly on the mans face in this shot. My experience of this was watching John Wick 1 & 2 on an LG CX, and it's replicated by Vincent on video.

I had an LG LCD television that I thought was too dark in HDR once. It turns out I had the incorrect HDMI black level selected. I doubt that's your problem, though, since DTM seems to fix it. I don't think DTM would make up for an incorrect HDMI black level setting lol.

The problem I have with this is that in order for a difference to happen to where the Optimizer affects the picture somehow is having higher nit content displayed on the TV. The Optimizer doesn’t affect anything from 1,000 nits and below, no matter if you choose OLED or Super High Luminance on the HDR Optimizer Menu. This in turn, doesn’t help movies from Disney or other things graded at 1,000 or less nits.

The DTM helps me retain highlights and actually doesn’t blow out anything whereas when I have it off, there are things that are blown out. And that’s never a good thing. If you have any Disney films, plug them in and play around with the DTM.

[pbz06]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

How much is roughly the video gear you use to calibrate your display?

Is it less expensive than this ... $40
• http://spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio...k-3rd-edition/

* Bonus:
https://www.biaslighting.com/?ref=afsvuka9nd

That's called optimizing your display...not calibrating it

For me, I use:
- Calman Home for Sony
- X-rite i1Display Pro
- PGenerator via Raspberry Pi

I don't remember the exact prices ($140+$250+$80 ish), but it wasn't too bad and worth it for the enthusiast in me.

I also have the S&M UHD disc (and the DVI disc from R. Masciola)

[chip75]

Originally Posted by Panaguy

Well, I'm really excited I've just found the solution thanks to a similar problem on another board with an older DVD player, and it's quite simple.

I tried last night, I didn't have any issues seeing blacker than black without changing the player's brightness. I'd assume that you're outputting the wrong levels to your TV and crushing the output.

[panasonicst60]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

How much is roughly the video gear you use to calibrate your display?

Is it less expensive than this ... $40
• http://spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio...k-3rd-edition/

* Bonus:
https://www.biaslighting.com/?ref=afsvuka9nd

I use X-rite i1Display Pro, r masciola hdr10 and dv patterns, and Colourspace. I use to have a Spectrometer, which will make your calibration more accurate, but not needed as the colormeter is good enough for most people. Of course there are cheaper software, but I like Colourspace more than Calman.

Around $800 for my setup without a spectrometer.

[panasonicst60]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You don't use a disc to 'calibrate' a display by itself. I use a ColorMunki Display as a colourimeter and a ColorMunki Photo as a spectro to profile the meter to my specific TV, using HCFR software to measure the results.

For how technical you are Geoff, I'm quite surprised you don't have $10k colormeters and spec!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by chip75

I tried last night, I didn't have any issues seeing blacker than black without changing the player's brightness. I'd assume that you're outputting the wrong levels to your TV and crushing the output.

Same here, no issues with seeing below black on the 820 when raising the TV's black level in either SDR or HDR test patterns.

Originally Posted by Panaguy

Well, I'm really excited I've just found the solution thanks to a similar problem on another board with an older DVD player, and it's quite simple.

As chip sez, if below black is being clipped then it's the TV doing it, not the player.

Originally Posted by panasonicst60

For how technical you are Geoff, I'm quite surprised you don't have $10k colormeters and spec!

If I did pro calibration then I'd have all that jazz, but I'm not so I don't. My kit is all that's needed to get a calibration that's way more accurate than not. I also use Ryan's excellent test patterns.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You don't use a disc to 'calibrate' a display by itself. I use a ColorMunki Display as a colourimeter and a ColorMunki Photo as a spectro to profile the meter to my specific TV, using HCFR software to measure the results.

Very good for the video scientists, like you.
For the rest of us (99.999%), what's the investment ($)?

[trekky76]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

From my understanding, HDR 10 is naturally dimmer, especially on OLED TVs. This is why so many seem to complain about some movies being super dim, like the Original Star Wars Trilogy on 4K UHD.

That's just nonsense.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by pbz06

That's called optimizing your display...not calibrating it

For me, I use:
- Calman Home for Sony
- X-rite i1Display Pro
- PGenerator via Raspberry Pi

I don't remember the exact prices ($140+$250+$80 ish), but it wasn't too bad and worth it for the enthusiast in me.

I also have the S&M UHD disc (and the DVI disc from R. Masciola)

Vary good, for both Uptimizing and Kalibrating.

* Most folks don't even spend $500 for a 4K TV.
And the ones who buy the best (OLED) don't want to spend another 30-50% on top of their hard earned savings/budgets/purchases.

What would you recommend for those folks (99%+)?

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by panasonicst60

For how technical you are Geoff, I'm quite surprised you don't have $10k colormeters and spec!

Me too I'm surprised; after all he's a movie scientist. ...A LED one.

[panasonicst60]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Me too I'm surprised; after all he's a movie scientist. ...A LED one.

X-rite i1Display Pro, r masciola hdr10 and dv patterns, ted's calibration disc for rec709, and software is up to you. There's free hcfr(learning curve but free) lightillusion free version. Some paid will give you more options. The basic Calman is pretty easy to learn and cheap but limited and other drawbacks. One thing I like about lightillusion is that they include lifetime updates, unlike calman. I also find lightillusion to be more accurate, especially without a spectrometer. However lightillusion Colourspace is not cheap, $600ish I believe, but it's a one time investment, unlike Calman where it's $50 here and $60 there...

About $350 without software.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Very good for the video scientists, like you.
For the rest of us (99.999%), what's the investment ($)?

They've renamed the devices I use, the CM Display (colourimeter) is now called the i1Display Studio and the CM Photo (spectro) is now called the i1Studio. Looking at amazon, the former sells for £135 new and the latter is £370, so basically £500 for the two devices.

The HCFR software is free, it doesn't allow for the sort of integrated automation that the paid calibration softwares do and won't work with the branded meters IIRC, but as I don't have a computer with an HDMI output on it anyway then it doesn't matter.

[pbz06]

I have another topic outside of Optimizer and DTM talk

I've been revisiting and messing around with various combinations of picture modes and UB9000 output (i.e. 4:4:4 vs 4:2:2 vs 10bit priority vs 12bit priority vs Deep Color Off etc)...but first, some context:

I've complained in the past about seeing blocking/posterization/banding, in particular with 8-bit SDR and low nit scenes on my OLED. The UHD 10-bit content is flawless so I've always chalked it up as SDR being bit-starved and not good enough anymore with large 4K TV's and closer viewing distances. While that's true, it still bothered me since I have a large collection of Blu-ray discs and have been underwhelmed with even movies that are considered "reference quality". Again, mostly with "black" or low nit scenes...even more exasperated when they're outdoors.

I've done several calibrations and played with settings like a mad man, trying to see if I can improve it. However, I've always assumed that I would want SDR to be upsampled to 10-bit or 12-bit, so testing 8-bit was a non-starter.

It was late last night and I was getting impatient and tired, but I tested some scenes and it looked better keeping it at 8-bit...perhaps let the TV handle it "as is".

Anyone tested this any further? My only choice is to keep Deep Color "Off", so it will send SDR as 4:4:4 8-bit, but with HDR it still upconverts to 12-bit (which isn't an issue for me since UHD has been flawless anyway). Also, 4:2:2 sends 12-bit for everything no matter what settings I have Deep Color at, including off.

p.s.- I've also tested keeping my picture mode as "Graphics/PC" (and copied my calibration settings over, and after measuring it tracks the same as Custom). I did this because if the player is sending 4:4:4, the other modes roll off the chroma anyway so I'd rather not waste processing power

[lilboyblu]

Question for Geoff, when using the 820, do you turn off the Xtended Dynamic Range on your Sony LED? I use XDR when watching on the Oppo, but am thinking it probably interferes with the Optimizer function when watching with the Panasonic.

[pbz06]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Vary good, for both Uptimizing and Kalibrating.

* Most folks don't even spend $500 for a 4K TV.
And the ones who buy the best (OLED) don't want to spend another 30-50% on top of their hard earned savings/budgets/purchases.

What would you recommend for those folks (99%+)?

There's a bit of a learning curve. I'm still novice and rely on AutoCal, however I at least am to the point where I know what I'm seeing and can make tweaks afterwards.

If you are opposed to it, best bet is basically use your TV's "cinema/movie" preset, and make sure you are using the most accurate color temperature. From there, use the disc you have to make sure Contrast and Black are set correctly.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by lilboyblu

Question for Geoff, when using the 820, do you turn off the Xtended Dynamic Range on your Sony LED? I use XDR when watching on the Oppo, but with thinking it probably interferes with the Optimizer function when using it with the Panasonic.

No sir I do not. XDR is basically HDR on Sony TVs, with it set to anything less than High then it's not going to track the PQ EOTF properly. The point of the Optimiser is that it passes through x part of the signal unmolested and then rolls the rest off in a custom curve, so if you change the XDR or turn it off completely then you're drastically skewing the EOTF on top of what the Optimiser is doing.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by trekky76

That's just nonsense.

Alright, let me rephrase my statement. I have noticed with multiple movies that enabling Dynamic Tone Mapping has allowed me experience a better, overall picture than leaving it off. Star Wars: A New Hope is a great example. When DTM is off, the overall picture looks dull and doesn't seem to give the overall pop that is needed. With DTM "On," the picture looks much more like I expect. Even the star fields in the movie looks much, much better with it on.

Now in some cases, the picture becomes slightly dimmer, but not in the extreme terms as what the B8 does in Vincent's video on the Optimizer. The DTM on the C9 is not as aggressive as the B8 and B7. So slightly dimming or brightening the picture isn't a big deal to me which I feel like that is the same as what Dolby Vision does anyways. but even slightly less aggressive.

I've also did some comparisons to Disney movies on Disney + with Dolby Vision vs their HDR 10 counterparts on 4K UHD. I have found that many of the Dolby Vision streams match or has slight differences to their HDR counterparts when I have DTM set to "On" for the HDR Discs. But when I set it to "Off," the HDR 10 discs are lower than what is showing on Disney +. To me, this shows that DTM has its advantages. Sure, it's not "perfect" to standards. But at least it gives me an overall picture that seems make sense instead of leaving it "Off"

[lilboyblu]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

No sir I do not. XDR is basically HDR on Sony TVs, with it set to anything less than High then it's not going to track the PQ EOTF properly. The point of the Optimiser is that it passes through x part of the signal unmolested and then rolls the rest off in a custom curve, so if you change the XDR or turn it off completely then you're drastically skewing the EOTF on top of what the Optimiser is doing.

Great explanation. I will leave it alone then. Thank you!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by pbz06

I have another topic outside of Optimizer and DTM talk

I've been revisiting and messing around with various combinations of picture modes and UB9000 output (i.e. 4:4:4 vs 4:2:2 vs 10bit priority vs 12bit priority vs Deep Color Off etc)...but first, some context:

I've complained in the past about seeing blocking/posterization/banding, in particular with 8-bit SDR and low nit scenes on my OLED. The UHD 10-bit content is flawless so I've always chalked it up as SDR being bit-starved and not good enough anymore with large 4K TV's and closer viewing distances. While that's true, it still bothered me since I have a large collection of Blu-ray discs and have been underwhelmed with even movies that are considered "reference quality". Again, mostly with "black" or low nit scenes...even more exasperated when they're outdoors.

I've done several calibrations and played with settings like a mad man, trying to see if I can improve it. However, I've always assumed that I would want SDR to be upsampled to 10-bit or 12-bit, so testing 8-bit was a non-starter.

It was late last night and I was getting impatient and tired, but I tested some scenes and it looked better keeping it at 8-bit...perhaps let the TV handle it "as is".

Anyone tested this any further? My only choice is to keep Deep Color "Off", so it will send SDR as 4:4:4 8-bit, but with HDR it still upconverts to 12-bit (which isn't an issue for me since UHD has been flawless anyway). Also, 4:2:2 only send 12-bit for everything no matter what I have Deep Color off.

p.s.- I've also tested keeping my picture mode as "Graphics/PC" (and copied my calibration settings over, and after measuring it tracks the same as Custom). I did this because if the player is sending 4:4:4, the other modes roll off the chroma anyway so I'd rather not waste processing power

It's not so far-fetched. I wouldn't assume that 8-bit should be sent at 10/12-bit for the sake of it, it's always worth checking. I keep my players on Auto in that regard, yes, so 8-bit SDR is usually 12-bit 4:4:4, but only because I know they're not adding any crud to the signal. In your case it sounds like the TV's processing is choking a little bit on the upsampled SDR 10/12-bit output.