Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[rikraq]

Question about all the talk of freezing for this and other 4k players: Is that just on 4k discs or is it for regular blu-rays too?

[John Earls Umbrella]

Originally Posted by rikraq

Question about all the talk of freezing for this and other 4k players: Is that just on 4k discs or is it for regular blu-rays too?

Mine is always on 4Ks, other discs are fine.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

It took me a bit to figure all of this out but I have finally done it. I have an LG C9, as most on here know. I have a Panny 820 and use the HDR Optimizer set to OLED. On top of that, I use the Dynamic Tone Mapping setting on my C9.

Now, if you leave everything on Default in the HDR Options, the picture is completely blown out because yes, the Dynamic Tone Mapping on the C9 (and most older LG TVs) over brighten things and makes things inaccurate. But making adjustments in the HDR Options Menu can compensate for all of that.

Here are the settings I have come up with:

Dynamic Tone Adjustment: -2
Brightness: -4 (Should be -3.5 but we can get that specific with the player)
Tone Curve (White): +4
Tone Curve (Black) 0
System Gamma 0

I have found these settings will allow you to use Dynamic Tone Mapping on an LG OLED while still being almost as accurate as possible to DV. For awhile, I just adjusted Dynamic Tone Adjust and Brightness but the key was what I adjusted recently, the Tone Curve for White. It seems the DTM on LGs over blow that and setting it to +4 brings that way down. Now it won't be 100% DV because DV acts differently along with it being 12 bit color spacing rather than 10. Nonetheless, this is as close as I have gotten to it.

If you don't believe me, ask Mierzwiak. We had a discussion a few months back and Mierzwiak agreed that it's pretty darn close to what Dolby Vision was showing.

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

To add a little more to this:

Brightness can be either -4 or -3 depending on your viewing environment you are watching in or your personal preference since really brightness should be -3.5 but we can't really set it there.

I have figured out where brightness should be but the last thing I am trying to determine is the "Tone Curve (White)" Setting. I had it at +4 but noticed +5 or +6 looks slightly better.

Has anyone messed with this setting before and what determined how far you pushed the setting?

I have tried using a Test Pattern on my 820's YouTube App but it seems to be wonky with the Optimizer.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

I have figured out where brightness should be but the last thing I am trying to determine is the "Tone Curve (White)" Setting. I had it at +4 but noticed +5 or +6 looks slightly better.

Has anyone messed with this setting before and what determined how far you pushed the setting?

I have tried using a Test Pattern on my 820's YouTube App but it seems to be wonky with the Optimizer.

The Tone Curve White seems to affect the upper end of the curve. I have no need to use it any longer, but have in the past in other setups and preferred it. It can restore some clipped highlight detail at the expense of possibly reducing the overall contrast of the image....to whichever extent you use it. It's a blunt tool, but you can pause a frame where you seeing clipping on a given disc and test it.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

The Tone Curve White seems to affect the upper end of the curve. I have no need to use it any longer, but have in the past in other setups and preferred it. It can restore some clipped highlight detail at the expense of reducing the overall contrast of the image....to whichever extent you use it. It's a blunt tool, but you can pause a frame where you seeing clipping on a given disc and test it.

The problem is I don't want to go too far with the setting where I am adjusting it to the point where it is unnecessary and it's taking overall contrast and APL away. I know a calibration disc from Spears and Muncil would help but I don't have $60 to spend at the moment.

I guess I just have to go back to going back and forth from a Dolby Vision stream of something to the HDR10 disc in order to get it "eyeball" right. I know what I have is better than leaving everything at 0 though.

And in all honesty, I'm not sure how anyone could watch HDR10 content without the Panasonic HDR Options which is due to having the HDR Optimizer. It's insane how much you can fine tune things to almost looking like Dolby Vision (minus the 12 bit color saturation of course).

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

The problem is I don't want to go too far with the setting where I am adjusting it to the point where it is unnecessary and it's taking overall contrast and APL away. I know a calibration disc from Spears and Muncil would help but I don't have $60 to spend at the moment.

I guess I just have to go back to going back and forth from a Dolby Vision stream of something to the HDR10 disc in order to get it "eyeball" right. I know what I have is better than leaving everything at 0 though.

Here's what I used to do that worked for me. There were certain discs especially by Sony and Warner who often master at higher nits and I would notice when speculars were getting clipped. I would pause those scenes and experiment with the setting moving it incrementally until some detail emerged while looking at the rest of the image to monitor the contrast. And then replay that specific scene. Yeah, it was a compromise, but I hated seeing clipped highlights. In that circumstance, I traded away a little contrast to restore some highlights and found it worthy. But that's just me. Some people don't even seeing badly clipped highlights, so in that case, the setting wouldn't even be worth using.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Here's what I used to do that worked for me. There were certain discs especially by Sony and Warner who often master at higher nits and I would notice when speculars were getting clipped. I would pause those scenes and experiment with the setting moving it incrementally until some detail emerged while looking at the rest of the image to monitor the contrast. And then replay that specific scene. Yeah, it was a compromise, but I hated seeing clipped highlights. In that circumstance, I traded away a little contrast to restore some highlights and found it worthy. But that's just me. Some people don't even seeing badly clipped highlights, so in that case, the setting wouldn't even be worth using.

And that's pretty much what I have been doing. It's funny you mention WB because I've actually paused on the WB Logo at the beginning of each WB disc. It's actually a good way of seeing if there is clipping since it's a very bright logo sequence. But I've used the Harry Potter films, Hook, and some various Marvel films to figure where these settings should be by also comparing their Dolby Vision streaming counterparts.

Maybe I'm just being too OCD about all of this, haha! But if I can get the best picture out of making sure these settings are set right, it's worth it!

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

And that's pretty much what I have been doing. It's funny you mention WB because I've actually paused on the WB Logo at the beginning of each WB disc. It's actually a good way of seeing if there is clipping since it's a very bright logo sequence. But I've used the Harry Potter films, Hook, and some various Marvel films to figure where these settings should be by also comparing their Dolby Vision streaming counterparts.

Maybe I'm just being too OCD about all of this, haha! But if I can get the best picture out of making sure these settings are set right, it's worth it!

Based on titles I own, there were several sequences on Matrix Reloaded in particular I had spent time with testing. Also, Universal's Inglourious Basterds is a very good test. There's of course are a ton others, but it's nice to be very familiar with certain scenes. A lot of people use The Meg (which I don't own) and Harry Potter as you mentioned.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Based on titles I own, there were several sequences on Matrix Reloaded in particular I had spent time with testing. Also, Universal's Inglourious Basterds is a very good test. There's of course are a ton others, but it's nice to be very familiar with certain scenes. A lot of people use The Meg (which I don't own) and Harry Potter as you mentioned.

I don't got the Matrix or Inglorious Bastards (heard that one is good), but I can imagine those having very bright highlights, especially The Matrix.

Surprisingly enough, the 1st Avengers film is another I use. The specific scene is when Iron Man goes through the Portal into Space. There is a hole where the portal is showing New York City below. If you don't have things right, it will be clipped. There are also plenty of just very bright whites in that movie. When I changed the White Tone Curve setting, they became a lot more tame and very much like what I have seen on Disney + with Dolby Vision.

Also, I do realize that each disc/film is mastered at a different nit level so there has to be a compromise within the settings of the player. I can't have everything 100% perfect like what Dolby Vision would do. But I know I can get pretty darn close!

[Geoff D]

Heh. The portal in Avengers is one of the things I noted in my review, it came thru just fine on the ZD9, no tinkering required: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=1106

It's one thing to make the Harry Potters work properly in HDR as they are fookin brutal, but ideally a display shouldn't be having a problem with highlights on Disnee stuff as they're at the tamer end of the scale.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Heh. The portal in Avengers is one of the things I noted in my review, it came thru just fine on the ZD9, no tinkering required: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=1106

It's one thing to make the Harry Potters work properly in HDR as they are fookin brutal, but ideally a display shouldn't be having a problem with highlights on Disnee stuff as they're at the tamer end of the scale.

Remember though that I use LG’s Dynamic Tone Mapping function on my C9. Without tinkering, it has some flaws, including over-doing the whites of the tone curve blowing them out of proportion. But with tinkering in the HDR Options Menu, you can compensate for those issues, allowing for a more dynamic picture that’s actually accurate.

[AgentOrange]

Originally Posted by rikraq

Question about all the talk of freezing for this and other 4k players: Is that just on 4k discs or is it for regular blu-rays too?

I have/had the Sony 800m2, the problems with that one were 100% on UHD discs for me. It played regular blu rays flawlessly. But got to the point of seemingly like 10% or 20% of UHD discs would have at least one or two annoying freezes or skips. At first I thought it was just 100GB discs it struggled with, but then a few 66GB had skips too. I never had it lock up or require a hard reset, but seconds long freezes became just unacceptable with how often the skips were happening. Esp if it happened more than once while trying to finish a movie

I just replaced with the UB820 last month, so far so good but the sample size is still small. At least it’s gotten off to a good (flawless) start. I remember the Sony skipped on the very first disc! At the time I just blamed the disc itself.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

Remember though that I use LG’s Dynamic Tone Mapping function on my C9. Without tinkering, it has some flaws, including over-doing the whites of the tone curve blowing them out of proportion. But with tinkering in the HDR Options Menu, you can compensate for those issues, allowing for a more dynamic picture that’s actually accurate.

Tinkering on top of tinkering on top of tinkering just isn't my bag.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Tinkering on top of tinkering on top of tinkering just isn't my bag.

I get it. It’s convoluted. But that’s what it takes to have a dynamic picture on an older LG OLED.

Think about it. Sony OLEDs have Dynamic Tone Mapping always on, so it should be the same for an LG or at least it should be turned on. Downside is, the LG DTM is flawed compared to Sony’s. So in order to fix the flaws, you go to the HDR Options and tinker with the settings to get it close to accurate as possible. I mean why else are those options there?

I don’t understand why people don’t try out these settings. You get a dynamic picture that is close to what Dolby Vision offers, minus the 12 bit color saturation. My C9 has never looked better when playing movies through my Panny 820!

[panasonicst60]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Tinkering on top of tinkering on top of tinkering just isn't my bag.

Especially, tinkering on top of tinkering without any real form of reference and trying to convince others to do the same is even worse

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by panasonicst60

Especially, tinkering on top of tinkering without any real form of reference is even worse

Would love to but I can’t afford the equipment. Not everyone is doing well with the US economy and are made of $$$!

And I would challenge you to use my settings and see for yourself, however you have the LG G3, which has the improved Dynamic Tone Mapping.

Plus, I feel like that if the picture matches up pretty well with the Dolby Vision version of a film, then i feel like that’s where the HDR10 picture should be, minus the color saturation because DV wins on that over HDR10.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

I get it. It’s convoluted. But that’s what it takes to have a dynamic picture on an older LG OLED.

Think about it. Sony OLEDs have Dynamic Tone Mapping always on, so it should be the same for an LG or at least it should be turned on. Downside is, the LG DTM is flawed compared to Sony’s. So in order to fix the flaws, you go to the HDR Options and tinker with the settings to get it close to accurate as possible. I mean why else are those options there?

I don’t understand why people don’t try out these settings. You get a dynamic picture that is close to what Dolby Vision offers, minus the 12 bit color saturation. My C9 has never looked better when playing movies through my Panny 820!

Why does any TV come with 101 different things to adjust (most of which should be set to OFF)? Because people like to tinker. The Optimiser is no different.

You keep mentioning the word "dynamic" over and over and I'm not sure in what context. HDR as a system isn't any more or less "dynamic" in terms of what the underlying picture does between DV, 10+ and plain HDR10, it's merely the signalling to the TV which changes, not the actual content itself. And if a TV can't even display 1000 nit content without having to severely compromise it one way or the other then that's too flawed for me. I get it that you're trying to make the best out of what you've got, and no way is the ZD9 perfick as it still chokes on the Harry Potters, but the Optimiser is too obtuse, too flawed, for me to take seriously any more. Heck, when I measured what it was doing it was making the EOTF way more linear i.e. much less "dynamic" than what untouched HDR would have been, now how's that for ironical?

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Why does any TV come with 101 different things to adjust (most of which should be set to OFF)? Because people like to tinker. The Optimiser is no different.

You keep mentioning the word "dynamic" over and over and I'm not sure in what context. HDR as a system isn't any more or less "dynamic" in terms of what the underlying picture does between DV, 10+ and plain HDR10, it's merely the signalling to the TV which changes, not the actual content itself. And if a TV can't even display 1000 nit content without having to severely compromise it one way or the other then that's too flawed for me. I get it that you're trying to make the best out of what you've got, and no way is the ZD9 perfick as it still chokes on the Harry Potters, but the Optimiser is too obtuse, too flawed, for me to take seriously any more. Heck, when I measured what it was doing it was making the EOTF way more linear i.e. much less "dynamic" than what untouched HDR would have been, now how's that for ironical?

I’m using the word “dynamic” as like what Dolby Vision would be doing. Every frame or scene is changing brightness, contrast, etc. Obliviously, HDR10 is just static. However, TVs have an option for Dynamic Tone Mapping for HDR10 content. Sony and Panasonic do it the best. LG in the past, had issues with their Dynamic Tone Mapping as mentioned by Vincent from HDTV Test and a few others over the years. And when it came to judging the TVs, Sony would win out over LG when it came to tone mapping because Sony has Dynamic Tone Mapping built in. So, to me that seemed a little lopsided.

That’s part of the reason why I have investigated this so heavily. There had to be a way that could remedy the flaws that were introduced by LG’s Dynamic Tone Mapping while still being able to use it. And there is by adjusting the settings in the HDR Options Menu.

Now this menu is Separate from the Optimizer. You can have the Optimizer “Off” and still have those settings in the HDR Options Menu act on the picture. But once you adjust those settings to where I have them for my C9, you not only have a picture that has less clipping, not overly bright, but also a picture that can change frame by frame or scene by scene. Acting like DV but not 100%.

Again, it’s all crazy but if people would actually take a look at what I’m talking about, they will soon figure out that the overall picture has improved. Because leaving everything at 0 just doesn’t work, even with Dynamic Tone Mapping turned off. These settings would only pertain to older LG OLED models. Newer ones have improved Dynamic Tone Mapping settings that don’t have as many flaws.

I’ve taken a lot of time to figure all of this out. I know I don’t have charts or numbers to prove myself, but I wouldn’t be saying this stuff if I didn’t think it was right. Every disc I pop in just looks like it should. I’ve never seen a better picture coming from my C9!

[panasonicst60]

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by panasonicst60

So what if I’m beating a dead horse. I’m tired or people being so ignorant of something that is actually more helpful than not.

I mean, if people use these settings, the “It doesn’t have Dolby Vision” LG Owners would stop complaining. I sure don’t care anymore if a disc has it or not anymore thanks to these settings!