4K Blu-ray content on the horizon?

[Flatnate]

So I was browsing information on Sonys new 4K projector when I ran across a tidbit of information on Sony pursuing 4k content on blu-ray, with the hopes of releasing the next Spider-Man movie on 4k blu-ray next summer!

http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-th...0es-projector/

Basically it reads as this:

Sony’s new VW1000ES boasts full 4K resolution, more than four times the resolution of 1080p and the same standard used by full-size cinema projectors.

Don’t get too comfortable with your Blu-ray collection. Not content to let lowly home theater owners wallow in 1080p while digital cinemas deliver full 4K resolution, Sony has hit its commercial projectors with a shrink ray to produce the first 4K projector suitable for the home: The VPL-VW1000ES.

Sony used the opening of the annual CEDIA installers show on Wednesday to showcase its new top-of-the-line consumer projector, which bears its Elevated Standard (ES) branding and throws a full 4K picture: 4096 x 2160 pixels. That’s the same resolution used in high-end digital cinemas, and more than four times the resolution of a 1080p picture.

Of course, this naturally raises the question: Where exactly will 4K content come from? Sony Pictures has more than 60 theatrical releases shot in native 4K resolution, but the means of actually transferring all that data to consumers simply doesn’t exist yet. Sony reps claim the company is in talks with the Blu-ray Disc Association to iron out a standard compression scheme for squeezing 4K movies onto discs, and has already promised a 4K release of the next Spider-Man movie, but the July 2012 release date for that flick should be telling: Sony won’t yet talk timelimes on when 4K movies could hit shelves.

In the mean time, the VW1000ES does include a 4K upscaler, which Sony claims will boost exist 1080p content to new heights, and plenty of still images exist at 4K (12.7-megapixel) quality. The new projector will boast 2,000 ANSI lumens, which Sony claims is enough to throw a screen up to 200 inches, and offer a 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio thanks to the company’s Iris3 technology and latest SXRD panel. Naturally, all the bells and whistles for home integrators like dual triggers, RS232, and control over IP will also make it in as well, and 3D is a given.

Sony will launch the VW1000ES in December at a price it hopes is “under $30,000.” Don’t worry, you’ll make it all up in all the movie tickets you don’t have to buy.

Sony offered a comparison of 2K versus 4K images on a digital cinema projector at its demonstration, but we haven’t actually had a chance to spy images from the VW1000ES in person yet. Stay tuned tomorrow when we’ll have a chance to drop by Sony’s demo theater and check it out in person.

Update: Alternate sources suggest the price point on the VW1000ES could be “under $25,000″)

I have to say I'm surprised! I hope that the compression used doesn't negate the benefit of the increased resolution but I do find this development to be exciting (if even a little silly for most home screen sizes). Any other thoughts?

[blueshadow | Kosty]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

So I was browsing information on Sonys new 4K projector when I ran across a tidbit of information on Sony pursuing 4k content on blu-ray, with the hopes of releasing the next Spider-Man movie on 4k blu-ray net summer!

http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-th...0es-projector/

Basically it reads as this:

Sony’s new VW1000ES boasts full 4K resolution, more than four times the resolution of 1080p and the same standard used by full-size cinema projectors.

Don’t get too comfortable with your Blu-ray collection. Not content to let lowly home theater owners wallow in 1080p while digital cinemas deliver full 4K resolution, Sony has hit its commercial projectors with a shrink ray to produce the first 4K projector suitable for the home: The VPL-VW1000ES.

Sony used the opening of the annual CEDIA installers show on Wednesday to showcase its new top-of-the-line consumer projector, which bears its Elevated Standard (ES) branding and throws a full 4K picture: 4096 x 2160 pixels. That’s the same resolution used in high-end digital cinemas, and more than four times the resolution of a 1080p picture.

Of course, this naturally raises the question: Where exactly will 4K content come from? Sony Pictures has more than 60 theatrical releases shot in native 4K resolution, but the means of actually transferring all that data to consumers simply doesn’t exist yet. Sony reps claim the company is in talks with the Blu-ray Disc Association to iron out a standard compression scheme for squeezing 4K movies onto discs, and has already promised a 4K release of the next Spider-Man movie, but the July 2012 release date for that flick should be telling: Sony won’t yet talk timelimes on when 4K movies could hit shelves.

In the mean time, the VW1000ES does include a 4K upscaler, which Sony claims will boost exist 1080p content to new heights, and plenty of still images exist at 4K (12.7-megapixel) quality. The new projector will boast 2,000 ANSI lumens, which Sony claims is enough to throw a screen up to 200 inches, and offer a 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio thanks to the company’s Iris3 technology and latest SXRD panel. Naturally, all the bells and whistles for home integrators like dual triggers, RS232, and control over IP will also make it in as well, and 3D is a given.

Sony will launch the VW1000ES in December at a price it hopes is “under $30,000.” Don’t worry, you’ll make it all up in all the movie tickets you don’t have to buy.

Sony offered a comparison of 2K versus 4K images on a digital cinema projector at its demonstration, but we haven’t actually had a chance to spy images from the VW1000ES in person yet. Stay tuned tomorrow when we’ll have a chance to drop by Sony’s demo theater and check it out in person.

Update: Alternate sources suggest the price point on the VW1000ES could be “under $25,000″)

I have to say I'm surprised! I hope that the compression used doesn't negate the benefit of the increased resolution but I do find this development to be exciting (if even a little silly for most home screen sizes). Any other thoughts?

I saw the presentation at CEDIA several times and had a long Q&A as well.

Looked nice.

Current dual layer BD50 do not use all the space for the movie and tighter AVC compression possibly could fit some movies or shorter content on BD50 or on multiple discs.

Blu-ray also could be tweaked in the future to use additional multiple layers to play more data and new high end 4K Blu-ray players could possibly be fielded. Native 4K content could also be loaded off multiple BD50 disc onto video server or somehow downloaded from the cloud via high speed connection.

All the plans were such native 4K content were vague with the implication things were under development.

I did not hear that some sort of 4K Blu-ray would be implemented for the new Spiderman 2012 release on home video. That seems awful fast to implement to service the few 4K projectors that would be in the field in 2012.

[Bishop_99]

My question is how will the Blu-ray movies look in those 4k HDTV's? Will it be a similar scenario to DVD that it looked "good" on the CRT SD TV's but ended up looking terrible on the 1080p HDTV, or does Blu-ray have something that will make it's upconversion to 3840 X 2160 pleasing to the eyes. Sure, it's a technology that will not be the norm any time soon, but I'm curious about that aspect.

[ZoetMB]

The question is whether the artifacts caused by data compression will kill any benefit of the higher resolution. This is a small market, comprising mainly of those few rich folk with large home theatres (>20' screens)

[blueshadow | Kosty]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

The question is whether the artifacts caused by data compression will kill any benefit of the higher resolution. This is a small market, comprising mainly of those few rich folk with large home theatres (>20' screens)

You can see the benefit pretty clearly on screens of 92 inches from my experience. But even on 50 inch demo screen of 4K Toshiba HDTVs a couple years ago you sensed something was better if you put your noise against it.

But it makes a noticeable difference on a wall sized screen even for a small 92-100 front projection setup.

[blueshadow | Kosty]

Originally Posted by Bishop_99

My question is how will the Blu-ray movies look in those 4k HDTV's? Will it be a similar scenario to DVD that it looked "good" on the CRT SD TV's but ended up looking terrible on the 1080p HDTV, or does Blu-ray have something that will make it's upconversion to 3840 X 2160 pleasing to the eyes. Sure, it's a technology that will not be the norm any time soon, but I'm curious about that aspect.

Blu-ray looks great on the 4K displays. There is enough data from 1920x1080p24 high bitrate AVC to work with. Its not native 4K content but it looks better upconverted to 4K than regular Blu-ray looks like on a 1080p display.

Its standard definition of low bitrate HD cable with motion artifacts and etc that are in the source material that would be the issue, not Blu-ray quality video.

[Bishop_99]

Originally Posted by blueshadow

Blu-ray looks great on the 4K displays. There is enough data from 1920x1080p24 high bitrate AVC to work with. Its not native 4K content but it looks better upconverted to 4K than regular Blu-ray looks like on a 1080p display.

Its standard definition of low bitrate HD cable with motion artifacts and etc that are in the source material that would be the issue, not Blu-ray quality video.

That's an interesting bit of info.

[Steedeel]

Bring it on! PROGRESSIVE technology.

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by Bishop_99

My question is how will the Blu-ray movies look in those 4k HDTV's? Will it be a similar scenario to DVD that it looked "good" on the CRT SD TV's but ended up looking terrible on the 1080p HDTV, or does Blu-ray have something that will make it's upconversion to 3840 X 2160 pleasing to the eyes. Sure, it's a technology that will not be the norm any time soon, but I'm curious about that aspect.

It won't look horrible but there will be obvious limitations.

This said, I believe that at some point in the future we will see 4K content on the market. However, I remain a firm believer that 4K content will be extremely limited as the content owners will not be willing to essentially offer their masters for pennies. More than likely there will be different protection enhancements as well.

Two years ago we saw prototypes (4K monitors) at CES in Las Vegas. If I recall correctly they were 65'+. The biggest improvement, in my opinion, was in color reproduction. In other words, I think that the majority of the people with very large screens (lets say 120'+) will be most impressed with the wider range - and in particular depth - of colors.

I can see myself experimenting with a 4K projector, but I remain a skeptic as far as 4K content is concerned, as I do not believe that 4K will become a standard for mass catalog releases. The more likely scenario is that the codecs we have now for Blu-ray will continue to mature and we will see even better results (which is what Blueshadow has noted above as well).

Pro-B

[Steedeel]

Pro b, i hope you are wrong about 4k. Maybe the push for glasses free 3d will help adoption.

[pro-bassoonist]

Steeldeel, we share a very difficult economy, and things have to financially make sense to the studios for the type of market you want to see. Unless there is some massive restructuring that will bring costs down, it is hard to believe that the studios will see fit to invest heavily into 4K projects. This is one of the reasons I believe that the overwhelming majority of transfers that are prepared for Blu-ray will be the definitive transfers for many, many films.

Of course, there will be exceptions, as the folks at Sony have apparently been adding up a good number of 4K content to their library, but I think that it is simply unrealistic to expect that all of the majors will completely transform their libraries and then be willing to sell 4K content on a market that already has seen plenty of content devaluation. (A different trend is underway now - many films will only be available through MOD programs).

And then you have all of the small and independent companies that very obviously won't have the funds to do such a 4K transition if this difficult economic climate continues to exist.

[blueshadow | Kosty]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

It won't look horrible but there will be obvious limitations.

This said, I believe that at some point in the future we will see 4K content on the market. However, I remain a firm believer that 4K content will be extremely limited as the content owners will not be willing to essentially offer their masters for pennies. More than likely there will be different protection enhancements as well.

Two years ago we saw prototypes (4K monitors) at CES in Las Vegas. If I recall correctly they were 65'+. The biggest improvement, in my opinion, was in color reproduction. In other words, I think that the majority of the people with very large screens (lets say 120'+) will be most impressed with the wider range - and in particular depth - of colors.

I can see myself experimenting with a 4K projector, but I remain a skeptic as far as 4K content is concerned, as I do not believe that 4K will become a standard for mass catalog releases. The more likely scenario is that the codecs we have now for Blu-ray will continue to mature and we will see even better results (which is what Blueshadow has noted above as well).

Pro-B

That's pretty much the way I see it as well.

I'd be happy to show Blu-ray movies on a 4K projector though and even though it was doing voodoo and magic to get to 4K I actually preferred the JVC 4K at $11,000 to the true 4K Sony FP at $30,000.

Not like I would ever consider spending 30K or even 11K on a projector but at wholesale cost and street price that JVC starts coming into normal human price points.

[blueshadow | Kosty]

Triple layer BD-R with 100GB capacity is already here.

That can manage 4K content with more compression for a niche market right now.

Panasonic to Ship First 100 GB BDXL Recordable Disc

Adam Grant

Published: 04/04/2011 10:56:05 AM EST i




Panasonic says that it will be the first company ever to ship a 100 GB BDXL rewritable disc.

The three layer disc will have 100s GB of space, and can store up to nine hours worth of 1080p video. Panasonic has also noted that the "hard coat" of each disc will protect recordings from scratches and dirt.

The discs will first be released in Japan on April 15 for about 10,000 Yen, which equates to nearly CAD$115. A North American release date has yet to be announced.

BDXL formatted discs were created by the Blu-ray Disc Association, and are ideal for those looking to store a significant amount of data, video, or otherwise; most likely in commercial applications. However, a BDXL-compatible Blu-ray recorder is required when using this type of disc.

http://www.marketnews.ca/content/index/page?pid=8858

[blueshadow | Kosty]

I can see Sony providing a few custom crafted bits of 4K content to its first owners of 4k projectors to kinda gain bragging rights. But if it happens to the general market it will be many years to come.

But Blu-ray by itself looks awesome on these 4K displays even if its not native 4K.

[stephen buccleugh]

[I don't understand this thread's addressing 4K bluray as "about to arrive"!

Surely you must know that The Thin Red Line (criterion), Bridge on the river quai, the citizen kane restoration, the wizard of ozz and many others transfering at 4K resolution to bluray are already on the market scanned from 4K masters!

And don't forget Baraka was scanned from a 7K digital intermediate!!

I know our current systems can't display this much resolution, but this is the direction home video wil go once we get new players and screens capable of displaying full resolution. Can you imagine watching a movie with over 2000 lines of vertical resolution?????

I hope I live to see it.

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by stephen buccleugh

[I don't understand this thread's addressing 4K bluray as "about to arrive"!

Surely you must know that The Thin Red Line (criterion), Bridge on the river quai, the citizen kane restoration, the wizard of ozz and many others transfering at 4K resolution to bluray are already on the market scanned from 4K masters!

And don't forget Baraka was scanned from a 7K digital intermediate!!

I know our current systems can't display this much resolution, but this is the direction home video wil go once we get new players and screens capable of displaying full resolution. Can you imagine watching a movie with over 2000 lines of vertical resolution?????

I hope I live to see it.

4k and even higher quality transfers exist, but not for home use. Any 4k+ transfer for BD will be downscaled to 1080p. That is why 4k BD is "about to arrive".

[Deciazulado]

To recreate the theatrical experience the way I've watched movies on a theater (~2PH) starting with STAR WARS in a D-150 theater, at the normal sitting distance in a home of ~9feet, you need a ~54" x 129" Scope shaped screen (140" diagonal), or for Flat 1.85 movies (100" wide) a 16:9 ~115" diagonal. According to the table you need a 69" diagonal 1.78 screen or larger to see the full benefits of 1080 at ~9 feet. Anything that brings the full emotional cinema experience closer to home is welcomed.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by joliefan

I have a question if i view a 4k content on a 4k screen will i still get black bars at the top and bottem? (widescreen)

Originally Posted by Anthony P

black bars have to do with aspect ratio (how wide compared to how tall) and not resolution. Since over the years film has been shot at different AR from 1.33 at the start to 4.0 for Napoleon, unless they chop off parts of the frame to make it fit your display sooner or later there will be black bars (top/bottom or left/right).

A 4K projector w/ zoom lens with a Scope (or wider) shaped screen would solve this.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

A 4K projector w/ zoom lens with a Scope (or wider) shaped screen would solve this.

Yes, but when playing films that are less than 2.35/2.39, there would be still be black bars on the sides. You can go constant height or constant width, but either way, there's going to be bars (or curtains) somewhere, unless you zoom the image, which would have the effect of cropping the image.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by Crazy People

Really? People prefered VHS To DVD? Never knew anybody like that. Must be an outlier. You could see the difference between VHS to DVD. You can slightly see the difference between DVD to Blu-ray. The difference between Blu-ray to 4K is even smaller.

Yet there were lots of my friends that got bellicose when I talked about DVDs and were adamant their VHSes were good enough and DVD wasn't needed. (Probably some unconscious reaction people get that puts them in the defensive when they think they're being told they wasted their money on an obsolete format) (They all now have DVD of course). Same happened with BDs.

To me the difference between VHSs (480i), LDs (480i) and DVDs (480i) was relatively small. While the difference between a BD (1080p) sourced from a true 2K master at 1:1 (which means cropping 3% instead of downrrezing 0.96x) or from >4k scans done correctly and a DVD is much more. If people don't see it that much, they're watching them within fields of view probably narrower than they should be. (Or the BDs are just reaching ~720p quality)