"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[horseflesh]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

To be clear, I use the P**ton example not as a current example of Fox's output, but specifically toward explaining what has been occurring, and is now occurring presently with releases from a number of studios, inclusive of a recent release of Amadeus from WB. ***ton is old history.

I believe that Fox's fortunes with Blu-ray are now very fortunately tied to the work of Schawn Belston, who will preserve, protect and defend Fox's productions from further granular dismemberment. His work on The Sand Pebbles is superb.

RAH

Excellent; I just picked up The Sand Pebbles.

And because Penton says you read this thread; to the Fox chaps, I also just got South Pacific and The Robe which I'm dying to watch but I might wait until I move back to my own house.

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by horseflesh

Excellent; I just picked up The Sand Pebbles.

I went to the (semi) local Circuit City the day before the last day looking for Blu-ray deals, and found only two titles available... "Mrs. Doubtfire" and "The Sand Pebbles". I had wanted to get it on Blu-ray, so I managed to pick it up for $7 (and some change). Great Blu-ray, great price!

~Alan

[Bobby Henderson]

I see little point in Dolby TrueHD versus DTS-HD jousting now. If a certain movie studio likes releasing in Dolby TrueHD then they should stick with it.

Sure, there is a number of Blu-ray players that lack DTS-HD compatibility. But the same is true for Dolby TrueHD compatibility. The same thing goes for quite a few surround receivers more than a couple or so years old.

HOWEVER, much of that hardware was high priced, early adopter gear. Most new BD players have at least some support for both formats. More than a few early adopters of Blu-ray have since purchased their second or third BD players already (which actually kind of amazes me). I have a very difficult time trying to find a surround receiver that supports only one of the lossless next-gen formats. The overwhelming majority that do offer Dolby TrueHD decoding also offer DTS-HD as well.

This situation is not much different than the old DTS vs. DD contest during the early days of DVD. Except in this case every Blu-ray player must at least be able to decode the lossy core of any DTS track, be it DTS-HD or what not. Because of that, studios have more freedom to go exclusively in one direction or another based on who is giving the best licensing deal. The support for DTS-HD decoding in hardware this time around has been much better than it was for DTS in the early days of DVD. Basically if you're going to buy a home theater setup that supports next-gen lossless surround you're going to end up with the system that supports both Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD.

[horseflesh]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

I went to the (semi) local Circuit City the day before the last day looking for Blu-ray deals, and found only two titles available... "Mrs. Doubtfire" and "The Sand Pebbles". I had wanted to get it on Blu-ray, so I managed to pick it up for $7 (and some change). Great Blu-ray, great price!

~Alan

And I thought I did well getting it for $11


By the way Penton, despite my fairly non-commital response, genuine thanks for putting the audio question to us plebs. I think it's a good policy to ask such questions of enthusiasts.
And I hope I don't sound like too much of a sycophant, because that would go completely against my Irish nature

[PeterTHX]

I know certain fanboys here will make personal comments about me if I make my preference known...too late:

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

I know how PeterTHX will feel about it...

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Esox50

....each day that passes without "The Mask of Zorro" on Blu. CZJ in HD...

Ah, the Welsh woman that played the Spanish woman so superbly.

It is frightening how similarly we think; however, if you keep this up I am tempted to tell Michael D. how much you covet his wife.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Y3k Bug

Here is your poll Penton:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ewpost&t=99791

I hope it is satisfactory.

Thanks.
Looks fine to me.

Perhaps once the traffic to that thread dies down after awhile (in a week or so?) maybe the mods can prop it up to sticky status so that it doesn’t get buried into oblivion over time.

As much input as possible would validate the data as to being statistically significant.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

I believe that Fox's fortunes with Blu-ray are now very fortunately tied to the work of Schawn Belston, who will preserve, protect and defend Fox's productions from further granular dismemberment. His work on The Sand Pebbles is superb.

RAH

Yes, indeed they are.
People like him and Grover are speakers or submit papers to Symposiums like this.. http://www.jts2010.org/

and for those folks whom are unaware, have contributed in some such capacity for years prior to Blu-ray ever coming along.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

I went to the (semi) local Circuit City the day before the last day looking for Blu-ray deals, and found only two titles available... "Mrs. Doubtfire" and "The Sand Pebbles". I had wanted to get it on Blu-ray, so I managed to pick it up for $7 (and some change). Great Blu-ray, great price!

~Alan

A fabulous classic motion picture in every sense that achieved its true potential on the Blu-ray edition.
The leading actor (Steve McQueen) was a true tough guy back in the day and there is a great spiel about him from the filmmakers on one of the included supplements.

To SquidPuppet – I own the laser disc of On Any Sunday, and I’m not sure but, this scene may also be on the Director’s DVD edition of the flick, anyway there is a neat segment of Steve McQueen bench racing with some Checkers guys shortly after finishing the Lake Elsinore Grand Prix back in the day when you probably lived in SoCal.

Malcolm took the overall.
If memory serves, Steve McQueen placed in the top ten, or thereabouts.

Gotta run.
It's 12:30 my time and that means a lunch meeting.

[Alan Gordon]

Like horseflesh, I too would like to thank Penton-Man for the ability to offer feedback on the subject.

~Alan

[PeterTHX]

In any case:

TrueHD is far more compatible with pretty much all HD devices, due in part to the Dolby Digital companion track. HDTVs can accept that signal through their HDMI inputs.

All PCs can decode it, where often other codecs are either not included or have to be purchased seperately.

Far less DSP intensive: far more devices can access and decode the full lossless track.

No flagging issues, 6.1/7.1 TrueHD tracks play and are bitstreamed properly (to get a title like Bolt or Wall*E to play 6.1 I have to put it in the PS3, if I bitstream it from my Panasonic they read 5.1 only), none have been mistakenly flagged "Dolby Plus".

Dynamic Range control (aka Night Mode) for those in apartments, HTIBs or PCs with small, limited range speakers. Turn it off for full range systems.
Or children or other adults who don't want to be blasted out of their seats: Disney's Bolt and Wall*E become exercises in volume control under these circumstances.

Finally, any polls seem to be skewed by those who hear a particular mix and attribute it to the codec. There are very, very few discs where both have been present, and a disc like Top Gun has 2 different mixes: one for each codec.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

LOL!! As I said, I prefer DTS-HD MA right now due to my lack of "lossless" capability, but soon, I personally won't care, so not really a "fanboy", just some good-natured ribbing from someone who felt they might know where you stand!

~Alan

Then why mention my name at all? When have I mentioned yours?

The "ribbing" has been excessive in these kinds of thread questions.

[4K display]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

[snip] This is one of those rare opportunities in which your direct input could influence the policy of the home video division of a major Hollywood studio.

Thanks

Very cool Penton, and for all you do..Thank you!

I'd also like to pass on my appreciation to Mr. 4k, paidgeek AND his team for many wonderful "escapism" moments in my wee home theater.

[sharkshark]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

^
RAH, see what I mean.

Sigh, like Mr. Harris, I too was using Patton as per his example, but if I'm to be painted as a "video lunatic" or some backwards looking fool for doing so, then so be it (you've already admitted to not having seen the latest discs that are giving people pause, including Trek, Fletch, and so on, so was trying to include a common disc in the discussion).

Heads may or may not have rolled at Fox, and things may be much better in many cases, but for many other titles we, as consumers, can not be certain that just because it's on BD, it's not a mess. And, yes, Patton (pretty and plastic as it is, in an NFL sunday sort of way) is a mess. So too, unfortunately, are a number of other catalogue titles that are being released (https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movie...52&show=review, https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movie...1&show=review). It would be foolish to fixate on the problems and forget the many, many titles that get it right. It would be equally foolish, in my opinion, to brush them under the carpet and have past mistakes go unchecked.

Heck, even Bill's still using Patton in his examples: http://www.digitalbits.com/#mytwocents

As he writes:

You want to see examples of really serious grain reduction offenders on catalog Blu-ray films? Go look at Fox's aforementioned Patton and The Longest Day. Now compare them to examples of great, exceptionally film-like catalog transfers, like Fox's South Pacific or MGM's The Battle of Britain, and Criterion's Chunking Express - or almost ANY title from Criterion for that matter....

So yes, excessive grain reduction is a real issue here with high-definition. And the industry needs to be aware of it, and try to improve - which (by and large) I think they are. But you Blu-ray fans need to keep all this in perspective too. Just because a little too much grain reduction has been used on a particular title, that ALONE shouldn't be reason enough for most of you to dismiss the title completely. Consider the extras, the audio improvements, the degree to which the image - even with too much DNR - is improved over the previous DVD release.

And once again, for the record, I bought Patton, knowing it to be an improvement over my DVD on my 60" Kuro, and waiting for the time when Fox will fork out to rescan the film and do it right next time. Heck, I've purchased EVERY ONE of those titles he lists. In some way, weirdly, I think I have contributed to the eventual process of improving the format as a whole by buying these catalogue disc and giving you guys money, rather than the counter argument that I should have somehow "punished" the studios by not jumping into the format early and refusing to pay for substandard quality.

Still, it's too bad I've been lumped in with the hyperbolists - I do try to contribute to this thread in an intelligent and non-dogmatic fashion, hoping to learn from the likes of you with respectful questions, but I guess you've stopped reading what I actually write in favour of selective quotation, admonishing me in the process.

Ah, well, I'll take the blame.

Meanwhile, I'm shaking my head in confusion at those comparing lossless to lossless in terms of sound quality, especially without volume matching (or is the argument about Dialogue Norm again?). What do YOU see as the advantage, if any, of (lossless decoding of) DTS-HD MA over TrueHD from a sound quality point of view?

In order to make an educated decision about this choice, wouldn't one like to hear the same soundtrack encoded identically with both codecs? Otherwise we'd be back to the AVC vs VC1 sillyness, comparing Movie A to Movie B, and using the codec alone to determine which is "better" rather than the source material or type of film.

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

Sigh, like Mr. Harris, I too was using Patton as per his example, but if I'm to be painted as a "video lunatic" or some backwards looking fool for doing so, then so be it (you've already admitted to not having seen the latest discs that are giving people pause, including Trek, Fletch, and so on, so was trying to include a common disc in the discussion).

I have seen many of the titles just released or shortly to arrive, and I've not come away smiling. The reason that I use that 1970 film is that I'd rather not stir up another hornet's nest by mentioning new problematic titles. Unless something is really horrific, I'm going sit these out, and allow others to bring them to the fore. While I'm seeing none the quality of that 1970 film, there are many on the verge.

Suffice to say, that this past weekend, I sampled far more Blu-rays to which I had a negative reaction that positive. While this may be a continuation of older masters, DNR, which I use as a generalized term, is still running rampant, and leaving damage in its wake. While I fully recognize that fact that in this economy studios are not about to junk older masters, I'm wondering when we're going to see the last of them.

RAH

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by horseflesh

Excellent; I just picked up The Sand Pebbles.

And because Penton says you read this thread; to the Fox chaps, I also just got South Pacific and The Robe which I'm dying to watch but I might wait until I move back to my own house.

If you liked the movie, you'll love the BD of The Sand Pebbles. I personally had never seen it before and have been renting "old" flicks such as this. I really liked it quite a lot, and the detail and grain structure seems to me to have been untouched (though obviously I have nothing to reference it to). I thought it looked fantastic.

*edit* Haha, just saw Robert Harris' comment that it was great as well. Obviously, I'm not trying to trump his opinions with my own. Just wanted to chime in as someone who had never seen the film before and really appreciated the film, the PQ and the AQ.

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

To SquidPuppet – I own the laser disc of On Any Sunday, and I’m not sure but, this scene may also be on the Director’s DVD edition of the flick, anyway there is a neat segment of Steve McQueen bench racing with some Checkers guys shortly after finishing the Lake Elsinore Grand Prix back in the day when you probably lived in SoCal.

Malcolm took the overall.
If memory serves, Steve McQueen placed in the top ten, or thereabouts.

Pretty sure it's on the DVD. They have raccoon faces caused by their "dirt tans". McQueen was one of my idols. Can you imagine making his Great Escape jump THAT bike? I think I read that he crashed doing it and they reshot it with a stuntman. He was a tough nut.

I used to go camping up there (Elsinore) and ride the fire roads for hours and hours. I remember when my Dad and I stumbled upon a bee ranch . That was the only time I saw my Dad WFO.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by SquidPuppet

Can you imagine making his Great Escape jump THAT bike?

THAT bike was a Japanese factory product in disguise, if memory serves.

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

THAT bike was a Japanese factory product in disguise, if memory serves.

British. Trimph 650. Doesnt matter anyway. Anything from 1962 had steel wheels, steel tank, steel frame, drum brakes, weighed 300+lbs and had 3 inches of hugely primitive suspension travel (making for bone crushing landing).

This is pre-titanium-nitride coated cartridge forks with 12 inches of travel and Pro-link titanium-sprung nitrogen charged rear shocks with eleven inches of down feather suspension travel. Those old bikes, Japanese, British, Czech, German, Swedish all had something in commom. Heavy and jarring rides.

I watched these being born from garages and implemented (crudely) on to Maico swimgarms. Amazingly, this technology was a grass roots invention that the factories later (quickly) adopted.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4058181.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3977697.html

The year was 1975 and suspension travel was just at the start of the long travel revolution. In 1974, the longest travel any production bike had was about four inches. Yamaha came out with their monoshock design ( a single shock under the saddle ) and several other manufacturers started moving shocks forward and angling them all over the place.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

It would be foolish to fixate on the problems and forget the many, many titles that get it right. It would be equally foolish, in my opinion, to brush them under the carpet and have past mistakes go unchecked.

Shark, my point was that there is no balance on some Blu-ray software forums.
It is not a matter of sweeping anything under the rug.

There is so much dirt on top of the rug that you can’t even tell what color or pattern the darn rug is.

P.S.
Have you ever been close to a shark (out of a cage) ?
If so what type and where ?