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Old 03-28-2011, 01:34 AM   #16941
EatingPie EatingPie is offline
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That’ll work…just substitute ‘cherry’ for ‘apple’ come the 4th….I love baseball, hot dogs, cherry pie and Chevrolet…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_Y-2...layer_embedded

Thanks Pie . We were kinda getting tired of apple pie every year.
I got the reference; didn't even need the link! That commercial is how I learned baseball, hotdogs and pie were all American inventions.

Who said TV rots your brain?

-Pie
 
Old 03-28-2011, 01:41 PM   #16942
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I just want to take a quick moment and thank Sony for sticking with Breaking Bad for a season 3 Blu-ray release. I really feared they were gonna drop the BD releases the way they did for Rescue Me, and this was a pleasant surprise.
 
Old 03-28-2011, 05:12 PM   #16943
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Neo - Good to hear from you.
Eating Pie – I meant to comment on your previous post about the quality of DW Animation 3D movies. I completely agree with your assessment(i.e. superb) but, additionally, there was one 3D animation flick from last year which I personally found to be rather unique and maybe a bit *better* (in quality, at least) than M vs. A. I’ll comment later because I’m quite busy with NAB approaching and I would like to delve a little into some 3D principles for *good or great 3D* in that follow-up response to your post.
 
Old 03-28-2011, 09:06 PM   #16944
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Speaking of Breaking Bad, what is up with the HD masters for this show? It's like they've sharpened only the grain or something, making it stand out and look really noisy. It's pretty bad in my opinion. Is this something that's done intentionally, and will Season 3 look the same?
 
Old 03-30-2011, 01:50 AM   #16945
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Best news I've heard yet on SW conversion:
http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...|News|FilmNews
Quote:
Conversion is being done under the close supervision of Industrial Light & Magic visual effects supervisor John Knoll ("Avatar," "Rango").

Knoll said they are taking "a different approach than you might expect.

Said Knoll, "George (Lucas')s vision has been to add dimension to the film in subtle ways. This isn't a novelty conversion, with things jumping out at the audience; our goal has been to enhance the classic Star Wars theatrical experience, utilizing the latest cinematic tools and techniques."
I know that Prime's in India, P, you have any insider info on their work? Sounds like they got the gig on merit.
 
Old 03-30-2011, 12:36 PM   #16946
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Hi Penton,

What do you think of the move by Panasonic to introduce a new universal standard for 3d glasses?

Do you think Sony might be interested in joining in? I think it certainly would help 3d adoption if you could buy one set of glasses and they would work on all makes of tvs.. be nice if i could bring my Panasonic glasses to my mates house to watch 3d on his Sony.. and vice versa

Cheers,
Mick
 
Old 03-30-2011, 02:48 PM   #16947
PeterTHX PeterTHX is offline
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Hi Penton,

What do you think of the move by Panasonic to introduce a new universal standard for 3d glasses?

Do you think Sony might be interested in joining in? I think it certainly would help 3d adoption if you could buy one set of glasses and they would work on all makes of tvs.. be nice if i could bring my Panasonic glasses to my mates house to watch 3d on his Sony.. and vice versa
AFAIK Sony uses Samsung's system, so look to Samsung making a deal with Panasonic. LG's system is another factor: they and Samsung are bitter competitors, and LG is suing Sony over BD patents...yet LG was NOT involved in the creation of the format! Stupid Lucky-Goldstar.
 
Old 03-30-2011, 03:55 PM   #16948
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Originally Posted by Pyoko View Post
Speaking of Breaking Bad, what is up with the HD masters for this show? It's like they've sharpened only the grain or something, making it stand out and look really noisy. It's pretty bad in my opinion. Is this something that's done intentionally, and will Season 3 look the same?
You have access to the archival or dupe HD masters of the Blu-rays for Seasons 1 and 2?
Nothing was done at the mastering or encoding level to significantly artificially emphasize the grain for Season 2. I can’t speak to Season 1 as I don’t know anything about it.

Of what I know, I wouldn’t describe this TV series as having really *noisy grain*, I would say that due to the multiplicity of film stocks, lighting conditions and different cinematographers, the grain, from episode to episode, or maybe even from Season to Season(without viewing 1) takes on a more inconsistent appearance than if there was more standardization with the production. If anything, that sort of thing (inconsistent grain) tends to encourage grain reduction tool usage which would make the grain appear less distinct.
 
Old 03-30-2011, 03:59 PM   #16949
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Best news I've heard yet on SW conversion:
http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...|News|FilmNews

I know that Prime's in India, P, you have any insider info on their work? Sounds like they got the gig on merit.
When the techs at that conversion facility are given enough time for the project, they are certainly capable of doing high quality work. For example, Prime did the 2D ->3D conversion for some shots in AVATAR, which worked out so well that probably 99.9% of viewers and reviewers believe that all of AVATAR was native 3D. Not so! (see https://forum.blu-ray.com/insider-di...ml#post4423645)

On the other hand, when they are not afforded enough time, the result is that infamous entry in the annals of 3D known as….Clash of the Titans.
 
Old 03-30-2011, 04:02 PM   #16950
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Originally Posted by micks_address View Post
Hi Penton,

What do you think of the move by Panasonic to introduce a new universal standard for 3d glasses?

Do you think Sony might be interested in joining in? I think it certainly would help 3d adoption if you could buy one set of glasses and they would work on all makes of tvs.. be nice if i could bring my Panasonic glasses to my mates house to watch 3d on his Sony.. and vice versa

Cheers,
Mick
Hi Mick,
I haven’t reviewed it (and the devil is always in the details) but, standardization of active shutter 3D glasses has also been a worthwhile goal for the exact reason you’ve mentioned.

I am not at liberty to comment upon any discussions in progress.
 
Old 03-30-2011, 04:08 PM   #16951
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Penton,

...I am personally excited about 3D (and was trying to show that).

Good to hear.
Sounds to me like your heart and eyes are listening to your brain. As according to this research, you’ve made a scientific evidenced-based choice…
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/3920...ys-bda-mindlab

b.t.w. the results probably would have been even higher if Clash of the Titans was not chosen as one of the materials….if, the Blu-ray (which I haven’t yet viewed) was anything like the theatrical presentation in terms of 3D quality.
 
Old 03-30-2011, 04:25 PM   #16952
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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...How to Train Your Dragon was an amazing 3D experience. It's also an amazing movie, period. Technically, the 3D was smooth, and by far the most natural I've seen. But this is also one film where the utilization of 3D really engaged the audience: think Dragon Ride, and you're on it!

Monsters Vs. Aliens was also amazing, establishing a sense of scale and depth -- particularly in the alien spacecraft -- that no one outside of Dreamworks has accomplished...
I really liked Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Ga'Hoole 3D. Did you see that animation flick in the theater?

Technically, it had a greater depth budget (depth of field) than Monsters vs. Aliens and the cool thing about the 3D with ‘Owls’ was that instead of the image straddling the screen and the action moving toward and away from the audience like with ‘Dragon’ (which did look quite marvelous) most of the action with ‘Owls’ played out behind the screen and then moved toward the screen plane.

What made this approach so unique compared to other 3D animations (even Dreamworks productions) was not only the great positive parallax (imagery went really deep behind the screen plane) but, just as importantly, when a character did indeed move forward, it added a special emotional impact to the moment because so much of the imagery played out at the screen plane or behind it. Kind of a neat thing because *the coming out at you effect* was very realistic but in fact, the image wasn’t physically coming out at you all that much!

All that said, it’s not critical where the screen is within the shot (although it has inherent advantages and disadvantages in terms of the propensity for ‘ghosting’ vs. ’edge violations’ during post production). The key thing to making great 3D is to produce imagery as spatial as possible throughout the course of the motion picture but, at the same time, staying within the visual *comfort zone* or *sweet spot* of the general audience….meaning the space in which most folks are able to effortlessly view stereo without eyestrain or headache. In numerical terms, most experienced and successful stereographers believe this to be about 2.5% of screen width.
 
Old 03-30-2011, 04:30 PM   #16953
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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...the propensity for ‘ghosting’
P.S.
I don’t want to give people the wrong impression with my above ^ comment as, to the contrary, the vast majority of ‘ghosting’ which consumers perceive while viewing 3D in their home theaters is caused by, or due to, display technology rather than content production.
 
Old 03-30-2011, 04:41 PM   #16954
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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I got the reference; didn't even need the link! That commercial is how I learned baseball, hotdogs and pie were all American inventions...
Things change… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rYXmWY9HY4

but, the great taste of a good pie from Julian doesn’t.
Enough fun for now, on to work. Freeways should be cleared up.
 
Old 03-30-2011, 05:42 PM   #16955
sharkshark sharkshark is offline
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Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
When the techs at that conversion facility are given enough time for the project, they are certainly capable of doing high quality work. For example, Prime did the 2D ->3D conversion for some shots in AVATAR, which worked out so well that probably 99.9% of viewers and reviewers believe that all of AVATAR was native 3D. Not so! (see https://forum.blu-ray.com/insider-di...ml#post4423645)

On the other hand, when they are not afforded enough time, the result is that infamous entry in the annals of 3D known as….Clash of the Titans.
Interesting - I figure that even more than traditional CGI workflows (where nowdays you can get away with acceptable with incredibly powerful contemporary tools) that 2D-3D can more readily be either decent or just plain shite given the limitations of time or the competence of the artists/decision makers.

Again, I'm one of those that likes when 3D adds a sense of space, but does NOT cater to showing off its tech. I -loved- the work Disney did with TANGLED, for example. I've yet to see MEATBALLS, and I know it's supposed to be a great, enjoyable film. However, the 2 minutes I did see, at a friends how in 2D as their kid was watching, it's clear that every angle was stretched and exaggerated to increase the sense of space, like it was showing off on almost every angle the extension of the z-space, even though I was seeing it as a flat plane.

It was distracting.

So, I'm saying this right now, the more I hear from people when the SW films come out that the 3D is "useless" because they're not "3D enough", the more pleased I'll be. I know many scenes will benefit from a conversion (Pod Race should be lots of fun, and a perfect type of action sequence that might benefit). Ditto for something like the quieter scenes in dagobah in ESB, where there's lots of depth that can be created in the swamps. I don't need, however, distracting effects for much of the film. I'll simply be pleased, frankly, to once again be able to see (and, almost more importantly, HEAR) these films in a big theatre again.

So, bookmark this post, we'll be talking about this LOTS a year from now.
 
Old 03-31-2011, 12:54 AM   #16956
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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...for example. I've yet to see MEATBALLS, and I know it's supposed to be a great, enjoyable film. However, the 2 minutes I did see, at a friends how in 2D as their kid was watching, it's clear that every angle was stretched and exaggerated to increase the sense of space, like it was showing off on almost every angle the extension of the z-space, even though I was seeing it as a flat plane.

It was distracting.
Well shark, you’re talking aesthetics now and it’s obvious you prefer a narrow depth budget with your 3D. That’s all personal preference like one preferring crisp, razor sharp unfiltered Ultra Prime captured images in 2D motion pictures vs. those with soft lighting, Cooke zooms and diffusion filters or nets.

But, if you’re trying to tell me that ‘distraction’ equates to ‘eye-discomfort’ in the case of Meatballs, then you definitely fall outside the bell-shaped curve based upon internal testing as well as feedback from public venues in Vegas like this...
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/116148

I consider things like a cardboard cut-out effect, poor depth blending, lack of good character roundness, etc. to be real issues with the quality of 3D production (problems which, by the way, can be avoided or corrected), not personal preferences as to how conservative or radical one’s tastes are for the depth of focus…as long as, I said before, the motion picture stays within the normal comfort zone for the vast majority of viewers, which CWaCoMeatballs definitely does.

In other words, and I’m not referring to a lot of *in your face shots* per se but, the philosophy of most experienced (and successful) stereographers is to take advantage of the spatiality of 3D, not throttle it.
 
Old 03-31-2011, 04:56 AM   #16957
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You may have missed we're in total agreement on this one.

Let's take shakycam on pure aesthetic grounds - after decades of trying to craft a good way of dealing with sweeping cameras, from SUNRISE to the development of the steadicam in the 70s, we similarly had those that went away from the conventions guiding "proper" camera work and crafted a grungy look. From WOODSTOCK and other mainstream docs to Cassevettes, the handheld shots crept in because of low budgets and other non-aesthetic factors, but quickly became a "look" that even those with all the budget in the world would use to exemplify "edgy".

So, while there are majestically amazing examples of handheld shooting (BREAKING THE WAVES is for me the absolute touchstone, with Robby Krueger helping establish the Dogme look, breaking from the more staid and formalistic forms that Von Trier used so fantastically in EUROPA/ZENTROPA). There are films that are fun (EVIL DEAD) and films entirely dependent on the effect of that look (BLAIR WITCH PROJECT). There are also miserable examples, from GLADIATOR to CLOVERFIELD, the cinematic equivalent of autotune, taking a quirk of technology used sparingly in a few instances to become, only a few years back, a ubiquitous crutch that homogenized through laziness musical output. Look at Michael Bay's inability to shoot a wide shot, forcing CGI giant robots to become little more than streaky messes of motion blur.

So, yeah, in the right hands, any technology can be wonderful, or terrible. What's at stake here is the creeping fold of marketing and expectation, where judgements about how "3D" something is (ie., the more powerful the perceived dimensionality, the more "gotcha" moments, the more the audience feels they got their money's worth) is the determining factor. Thus, these features that call attention to the technology are highlighted, while the more subtle instances are dismissed as not being value for the cash.

So, as this new tech settles in, as we see more creative artists make flailing attempts at crafting this new form of presentation using contemporary tools, we'll see some absolutely miserable examples of the form. We should celebrate those that seem to get it right, discourage those that don't, yet feel hopeful that in the hands of good directors with a team of capable technicians will see 3D 2.0 not succumb to the same forces that relegated the 50s-70s era of extra-dimensional presentations.

So, my judgement of CWACOMB isn't on the positive nature of the 3D presentation (I have no reason to thing it isn't excellent), it's just that in the very brief clips I've seen, the film is framed (shot?) to emphasize this dimensionality (LOTS of shots straight down, nose in frame with tiny feet, wideshots from particularly low angles.) Contrast this with TANGLED, or UP, and you'll see 3D that doesn't (often) call attention to itself, yet remains, I believe, fine representations of the form. CWACOMB is meant to be a silly, exaggerated film, I'm not knocking its choices at all. I am saying, from a very small sampling I admit, that it was clear they were shooting not to make a particularly graceful or pleasing composition, but to highlight the distance between those things closeup in frame and those further away. In other words, the shots are gamed to emphasize the 3D experience, potentially
at the expense of pleasing (or in the case of a Michael Bay film, comprehensible) framing.

I remain, as always, entirely optimistic that this "fad" of 3D cinema will be embraced successfully by artists, and not just the CGI animated/action film variety. Woody Allen's unlikely to shoot in this fashion, but the fact that Wenders has crafted a narrative film in 3D certainly has me interested (unfortunately, his films for the last two decades have been one disappointment after another.) I've gone on record here that I thought Herzog's CAVE OF FORGOTTEN DREAMS derives a huge part of its power from the 3D presentation, shaky-handicams and imprecise stereo capturing and all.

So, no, I don't think I prefer a more narrow depth budget per se, I prefer that these decisions are done with the more nebulous of concepts, "taste". I stand by the fact that one of the more elegant uses of 3D in this renaissance, far surpassing I thought the often overwraught compositions of AVATAR, was the film that played MOMA to what I understand was a quite appreciative crowd.

And, yeah, when JACKASS 3D is my touchstone of 3D done right, even if it did actually have me physically wretching as a man took a swig of a vile, vile liquid, well, yeah, I remain open for anything in this brave new world.

But, in the end, let's try to avoid this, k?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u4tTFEF_XE



Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
Well shark, you’re talking aesthetics now and it’s obvious you prefer a narrow depth budget with your 3D. That’s all personal preference like one preferring crisp, razor sharp unfiltered Ultra Prime captured images in 2D motion pictures vs. those with soft lighting, Cooke zooms and diffusion filters or nets.

But, if you’re trying to tell me that ‘distraction’ equates to ‘eye-discomfort’ in the case of Meatballs, then you definitely fall outside the bell-shaped curve based upon internal testing as well as feedback from public venues in Vegas like this...
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/116148

I consider things like a cardboard cut-out effect, poor depth blending, lack of good character roundness, etc. to be real issues with the quality of 3D production (problems which, by the way, can be avoided or corrected), not personal preferences as to how conservative or radical one’s tastes are for the depth of focus…as long as, I said before, the motion picture stays within the normal comfort zone for the vast majority of viewers, which CWaCoMeatballs definitely does.

In other words, and I’m not referring to a lot of *in your face shots* per se but, the philosophy of most experienced (and successful) stereographers is to take advantage of the spatiality of 3D, not throttle it.
 
Old 03-31-2011, 05:41 AM   #16958
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But, if you’re trying to tell me that ‘distraction’ equates to ‘eye-discomfort’ in the case of Meatballs, then you definitely fall outside the bell-shaped curve based upon internal testing as well as feedback from public venues in Vegas like this...
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/116148
So is that why Sony delayed/canceled the Blu-ray release?
I never realized this film was shot in 3-D...

 
Old 03-31-2011, 07:27 PM   #16959
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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...So, as this new tech settles in, as we see more creative artists make flailing attempts at crafting this new form of presentation using contemporary tools, we'll see some absolutely miserable examples of the form. We should celebrate those that seem to get it right, discourage those that don't, yet feel hopeful that in the hands of good directors with a team of capable technicians will see 3D 2.0 not succumb to the same forces that relegated the 50s-70s era of extra-dimensional presentations...
Inspirational (based on a true story) about one of the great creatures on earth -
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/ent...learwater.html

With nice underwater pics here…http://www.paradisefx.com/home/2011/01/dolphin-tale/

The geeky cinematographic specifics (which I know you love) being the production utilized among other things two ‘4K’ RED cameras with a Paradise FX 3D mirror rig housed inside a Zuccharini Watershot underwater housing.
 
Old 03-31-2011, 07:29 PM   #16960
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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So is that why Sony delayed/canceled the Blu-ray release?
I never realized this film was shot in 3-D...


I take that as an early April Fools Day joke.

I think/hope you know that I was referring to CwaCoM ….
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Cloud...-Blu-ray/9163/
 
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