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View Poll Results: After Reading This Megathread, Will you still purchase LOTR?
Yes 386 59.75%
No 260 40.25%
Voters: 646. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-07-2010, 03:12 PM   #8161
Todd Smith Todd Smith is offline
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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post
Thanks Todd. BTW, one reason my impressions of Fellowship may seem more favorable than some is (like Bill Hunt in this case) I'm really holding the blu-ray accountable to the source material (DI) versus an ideal notion of a ground-up rescan/recomposition effort.

I think that if we had the source DI, that this blu-ray probably comes close, though perhaps shaving off the slightest detail in some scenes (given the HDTV captures). But either way, the blu-ray is dramatically better than the projected prints, and more or less looks like the DI that Jackson and his crew gave us. So if that's our reference for success, this blu-ray comes very close (I believe, naturally I haven't seen the DI personally).

yeah, and that still can be true while at the same time saying that *no* detail should have been lost due to mastering.

I'd say "good enough for now" as long as the EE versions right whatever wrongs may exist with this release. Were there no future release planned, I'd probably be more bothered, but even so, I cannot stress enough that the overwhelming majority of problems with Fellowship really do seem source related, and not mastering related.

Sounds good.

I agree that no additional problems due to mastering should be present, especialy not in the ~10% range (by your estimate). VERY much hoping this gets cleared up next time around. No excuse for the HDTV broadcast to have ANY advantage over the blu ray.

Your post definitely has me a bit more excited than I was though from a PQ standpoint, so thanks It might be the holidays before I get around to renting these since that is when I usualy do my LOTR-a-thon. On the other hand, I might make an exception this year though The audio is still what I am most excited about which from all reports is fantastic!

Last edited by Todd Smith; 04-07-2010 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:15 PM   #8162
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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post
Thanks, and I forgot to mention my favorite aspect of the LOTR blu-ray Discs... there are no forced trailers and you go right to the menu within seconds of loading the disc. Sigh... I wish all blu-ray discs were that way.
I just noticed this post.........that is awesome! I think I read Avatar is going to be the same way on blu ray............wish more blu rays and DVDs were like this!
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:18 PM   #8163
DaViD Boulet DaViD Boulet is offline
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Originally Posted by Todd Smith View Post
Sounds good.

I agree that no detail should have been lost due to mastering, especialy not in the ~10% range (by your estimate). VERY much hoping this gets cleared up next time around. No excuse for the HDTV broadcast to have ANY advantage over the blu ray.

Your post definitely has me a bit more excited than I was though, so thanks It might be the holidays before I get around to renting these since that is when I usualy do my LOTR-a-thon. On the other hand, I might make an exception this year though
let me clarify, I meant to say that 10% of the *problems* might be mastering realted versus 90% of the problems being source related. That doesn't mean that 10% of the detail has been scrubbed away! Just that given whatever shortcomings my exist, I'd guess that the vast majority are source related with only a small fraction being mastering related.
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:30 PM   #8164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post
It's not to hard to remember your *impressions* of a theatrical viewing, and compare those impressions to what you see now. I can't remember the number of hairs in Gandalph's beard, but I'm not talking about that sort of recall. I'm talking about remembering the overall impression.

For instance, I remember that I was really bothered by how dull, muddy, and blurry the image was of Fellowship, and how it was almost unwatchable during pans. I actually saw it 3 times in 3 different theaters to make sure that the print I was seeing wasn't just a production-error fluke. But all 3 projected prints looked just as disappointinly bad.

Then when the DVDs came out, I was relieved that in many ways they looked *better* than the prints! The blu-ray of Fellowship looks much more satisfyingly clear and clean versus the horrid muddy/blurry/dull mess I remember from the theater.
Not to mention that but it gets shown at local theaters here at least once or twice every year.
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:43 PM   #8165
gdsk39a gdsk39a is offline
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Default Audio Issues with LOTR Bluray

The release claims DTS MA 5.1 ES Matrix. I hear no output in the ES Matrix speakers. Anyone else with this issue?
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:46 PM   #8166
Todd Smith Todd Smith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post
let me clarify, I meant to say that 10% of the *problems* might be mastering realted versus 90% of the problems being source related. That doesn't mean that 10% of the detail has been scrubbed away! Just that given whatever shortcomings my exist, I'd guess that the vast majority are source related with only a small fraction being mastering related.
That is how I read your post, but thanks for clarifying anyway I need to re-word my post though which makes it sound like I meant 10% of the detail, sorry about that. 10% mastering related problems is still way too high for my money, but thats just me. Hope this gets cleared up next round.

Last edited by Todd Smith; 04-07-2010 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:51 PM   #8167
un4gvn94538 un4gvn94538 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdsk39a View Post
The release claims DTS MA 5.1 ES Matrix. I hear no output in the ES Matrix speakers. Anyone else with this issue?
that blows. havent watched them yet and your post made me test real quick. its the same issue with T2 skynet edition. its the way the es is flagged the player is unable to send it properly (or the receiver is unable to decode it properly, cant remember which).

the back of the box said 6.1, i really wish they make a point in stating es so people dont think its a descrete channel.

Last edited by un4gvn94538; 04-07-2010 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:57 PM   #8168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdsk39a View Post
The release claims DTS MA 5.1 ES Matrix. I hear no output in the ES Matrix speakers. Anyone else with this issue?
Is your decoder one of the crippled "DTS Essentials" ones? If so, no ES.
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:59 PM   #8169
PeterTHX PeterTHX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Smith View Post
I agree that no additional problems due to mastering should be present, especialy not in the ~10% range (by your estimate). VERY much hoping this gets cleared up next time around. No excuse for the HDTV broadcast to have ANY advantage over the blu ray.
I wouldn't call additional edge enhancement and MPEG2 coding artifacts an "advantage".
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:01 PM   #8170
aggienader08 aggienader08 is offline
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**NOTE**
Not a question or comment about the dadgum transfer or source material quality debate.

I have a question for any LOTR afficianados that have read the books: What really happens at the end of The Return of the King with Sauromon and the Shire? The reason I asked is that I've heard on several accounts that Jackson changed the ending in the movies because he didn't like the end of The Return of the King.l

Last edited by aggienader08; 04-07-2010 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:06 PM   #8171
Todd Smith Todd Smith is offline
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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post
I wouldn't call additional edge enhancement and MPEG2 coding artifacts an "advantage".
Me either, but I would call a lack of additional DNR VERY much an advantage which is why the HDTV broadcast shows a bit more fine detail in some areas. No excuse for this
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:15 PM   #8172
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For the people who bought the Best Buy Exclusive sword? Are you keeping the big box that came with it or are you just throwing it away? I was thinking of just keeping the sword in there (which I am doing now, like it was originally packaged)? But I am thinking about just throwing it away because it's taking up a ton of room on my shelf, but for now I have room.

Last edited by The_Basterd; 04-07-2010 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:21 PM   #8173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdsk39a View Post
The release claims DTS MA 5.1 ES Matrix. I hear no output in the ES Matrix speakers. Anyone else with this issue?
My Sony S360 and Denon 590 showed it to be 6.1 ES on both the player and receiver. I only have 5.1 though, but both read the disc as being 6.1.
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:29 PM   #8174
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Watched FOTR last night and here are my impressions....

The audio rocks. There is a reason these films were all nominated for their sound.

The image is as has been reported, inconsistent. Some scenes look fairly strong with good detail, contrast and a thin veneer of grain. The scenes which suffer the most involve the layered shots of multiple exposures. The first of these is inside Bilbo's house, followed by the Rivendell Council. There may be a handful of these in all. Some of the colored filtered scenes also appear fairly soft, although I don't know if this was intended or not. Other special effects scenes also suffer from similar processing as they attempt to meld the images into one. The majority of the film is a solid 4/5, with those handful of scenes bringing the rating down to about 3.5/5.
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:31 PM   #8175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post
Of course, I only had a few hours before LOST last night to investigate the LOTR blu-ray discs , but I managed to satisfy my curiosity about what all the fuss is about.

I'll start off by doing what *everyone* (cough) should be doing when sharing their video impressions and describe my viewing environment so folks will have a clue as how to understand where my impressions are coming from. I'm watching the image projected from my JVC RS2 (clone, I have the FPJ1 version) which is a full 1080p LCOS front projector with the image on a 106" hipower screen. I view from about 1.5 screen-widths away... basically about 12 feet back from the 8 foot wide screen. My projector has very good convergence for a 3-chip LCOS and resolves every detail in the 1080p signal (was definitely an eye-opener when I upgraded to this new machine from my older HD2K) and from the 1.5 screen width most mastering/disc-related video anamolies that are really there do reveal themselves.

So what's the verdict?

I'll make OVN a happy camper by saying right off the bat that Fellowship is not as bad as I had expected.



Having said that, I'll emphasize that given the superior detail in the HDTV encode screen captures, this image might have presented more real visible picture detail with more careful mastering.

Having said that... here are my detailed impressions...

Without out a doubt, *most* of the problems with Fellowship are from the source DI and stem from the production of the original film which was a composite of 2K scans and interwoven CGI. Most of us already knew that. But even watching a large-image wide-angle via front projection, my distinct impression during the 45 minutes I sampled (every scene) was that this blu-ray disc is light-years, let me repeat, LIGHT YEARS superior to the DVD and in every way is a bonifide "high definition experience". The scenes in the shire and at Rivendale that are overly soft and look processed *also* looked that way in the theater. And to that point, this blu-ray disc BLOWS AWAY the theatrical prints I saw projected at multiple movie houses.

The image does appear more "flat" with less depth in most scenes than the later 2 films, but this is not the fault of DNR, that's the production of the original feature (which perhaps could be improved with a new telecine and recomposition should WB ever want to spend the $$). As far as fine detail, in my opinion most detail is quite good given the source material and I'm releived that the perception of detail doesn't seem to be *too* hampered by DNR for the most part. I say this because from 1.5 screen widths I didn't notice too much of the typical "crawlie" wax I usually see from DNR... and in the shots that looked heavily processed (Rivendale), I remember that same strange foggy/waxy look in the theater (One thing we should consider is that it's possible that some of these soft scenes were *meant* to be soft... to create a more lush, fairy-tale effect for the Shire and Rivendale, and so even new scanning and recomposition for DI might still leave some scenes being obviously softer than others). Given the absence of grain in some scenes, and given the increased picture detail seen in the HDTV encode captures, I do believe that some detail we might have otherwise seen is lost, but I think that this loss is slight. That doesn't mean it's good that it's gone, just that the negative effects are minimal.

Bottom line is that given how far superior these discs are not only to the DVD, but also to the theatrical projections, I'm glad to have them in my collection. At the same time, since the HDTV encode does show more real picture detail, it's a shame that WB didn't manage to tweak their mastering efforts just a touch to preserve that last level of detail. However, the vast majority of image softness and digital processing (I'd say 90%) is simply the fault of the original DI, which was the "studio master tape" if you will that Jackson and his crew assembled and gave their blessing... akin to a Beetles master tape that has hiss and a distortion from mutiple track overlays, but is "the master" that the artists created nevertheless. My hope is that with the EE version that Jackson and/or some contingent of the original team will revisit the original 35mm film elements and do new 4K scans and regenerate the CGI and do a new assembly for a new DI. That would obviously be a stunning improvement. But given the appearance, of the original DI, the Fellowship Blu-ray comes very close (though even a slight reduction in detail as demonstrated by the HDTV encode should warrant some criticism for WB studios).

This disc comes close enough to the original DI that I can enjoy it, but I hope for something better in the future with the EE.

By the way, I will add one thing about "screen captures" that I haven't seen discussed too much: DNR tends to be most destructive during motion when the eye is less sensitive to the effects partly because of the 24 fps motion judder blurring of our film medium. When things slow down, the detail loss from DNR subsides (though never totally goes away). This can be tricky because it means that if a screen-shot is taken from a pan or moving image, it's likely to suggest a more severe detail loss from DNR than what your brain will really perceive when the picture is in play, so while one can objectively prove that detail loss exists by screen-shot comparisons, it doesn't mean that what you see in the still shots will necessarily be reflected 1-for-1 in what you see when the image is in motion. Now, I haven't see the HDTV encode in play on my new projector so I can't attest one way or the other to how this blu-ray compares when actually viewing, but I throw that out as food for thought.

I also briefly sampled scenes from the other two films and noted immediately that the sense of 3-dimensionality and image depth/clarity was improved, or more consistent from scene to scene, as Fellowship varies from soft/processed scenes to those with the same level of depth and clarity as seen in the later 2 films.

Oh, and yes, the lossless audio is absolutely stellar. Anyone thinking that DVD's lossy audio was "good enough" needs to have their hearing checked if they can't immediately detect the *dramatic* improvement with the lossless audio quality on this set.
Great review, David. Hopefully some of the hysteria here will die down now.....

I watched the first hour of FOTR last night (all I had time for) and I have to say that I have absolutely no complaints whatsoever. Detail was abundant and colors were deep and rich. Very film-like. I was sitting much closer to my 50" display than my usual 2.2 screen-widths and just soaked it all in. I was very pleased. Looking forward to seeing the rest of this film and the other two!
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:42 PM   #8176
radagast radagast is offline
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Originally Posted by aggienader08 View Post
**NOTE**
Not a question or comment about the dadgum transfer or source material quality debate.

I have a question for any LOTR afficianados that have read the books: What really happens at the end of The Return of the King with Sauromon and the Shire? The reason I asked is that I've heard on several accounts that Jackson changed the ending in the movies because he didn't like the end of The Return of the King.l
[Show spoiler]After Sauron is defeated and Aragorn crowned king, Gandalf rides with the hobbits most of the way back to the Shire. They stop at Isengard to find out that Treebeard let Saruman and Wormtongue go, due mostly to Saruman's powers in his voice. Later on the way back, Gandalf stops to talk to Bombadil, and the hobbits go on without him to the the Shire, only to find out it has been taken over by Saruman, Wormtongue, and there are some hobbits in league with him. Sam, Merry, and Pippin organize a resistance with the hobbits and win. Saruman is killed by Wormtongue as they are being thrown out of the Shire.

Last edited by radagast; 04-07-2010 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:42 PM   #8177
Grand Bob Grand Bob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aggienader08 View Post
**NOTE**
Not a question or comment about the dadgum transfer or source material quality debate.

I have a question for any LOTR afficianados that have read the books: What really happens at the end of The Return of the King with Sauromon and the Shire? The reason I asked is that I've heard on several accounts that Jackson changed the ending in the movies because he didn't like the end of The Return of the King.l
[Show spoiler] While the Hobbits and Gandalf return to Rivendell for a period after the coronation of King Elessar (Aragorn), Saruman and Wormtongue go to the Shire with a bunch of "ruffians" and set out to destroy it, cutting down trees, polluting the environment etc. Eventually the Hobbits return, oust the ruffians, and while confronting Saruman at Bag End, Wormtongue kills Saruman (cuts his throat), while Hobbit archers kill Wormtongue.
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:44 PM   #8178
Grand Bob Grand Bob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radagast View Post
[Show spoiler]After Sauron is defeated and Aragorn crowned king, Gandalf rides with the hobbits most of the way back to the Shire. They stop at Isengard to find out that Treebeard let Saruman and Wormtongue go, due mostly to Saruman's powers in his voice. Gandalf stops to talk to Bombadil, and the hobbits return the the Shire to find out it has been taken over by Saruman, Wormtongue, and there are some hobbits in league with him. The hobbits organize a resistance and win. Saruman is killed by Wormtongue as they are being thrown out of the Shire.
Simultaneous!
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:45 PM   #8179
radagast radagast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post
let me clarify, I meant to say that 10% of the *problems* might be mastering realted versus 90% of the problems being source related. That doesn't mean that 10% of the detail has been scrubbed away! Just that given whatever shortcomings my exist, I'd guess that the vast majority are source related with only a small fraction being mastering related.
Regardless of what the ratios are, I hope there is a completely new DI, someday, for all three TE movies that get put out on Blu in the future. And of course I hope they do a new DI for all three EE movies BEFORE they release them on Blu.
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:47 PM   #8180
radagast radagast is offline
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Simultaneous!
How funny!!! I still beat you by a few seconds
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