4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[2themax]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Received several emails over lunchtime pertaining to this reporter’s article specifically where it says “ Panasonic wouldn't be able to support Dolby Vision pointing to the fact that this technology requires additional hardware which won't feature in this year's models.”
http://www.whathifi.com/news/panason...8Cj2hAMmlKI.99

As has been noted previously this lack of DV support for announced 2015 TVs is not exclusive to the Panny brand. Why? Well, because Dolby Vision is a 2-layer approach and chips available to the TV manufacturers just can’t do that.

However, for those needing a new TV right now and at the same time very interested in HDR…or at least HDR not done in an exploitative fashion without any filmmaker input, not to worry though , as current hardware can do single layer HDR schemes. And even if the 2015 TVs (like LG’s 4K OLED flagship models?) don’t come with that support immediately, single layer HDR scheme implementation should be possible with a software upgrade.

P.S.
As an aside, single layer scheme is included in the Ultra HD Blu-ray spec…which is not a coincidence , given the current hardware realities outlined above.

I think the biggest hurdle for DV will be finding a 12bit panel to display it on. We just got to 10bit.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Got thru the 1st half of Man City v. Barca. I think if Peter had seen the skill of Barca (esp. Messi), even he, would become a true believer/admirer of the beautiful game.

I'm sure I spotted him in the crowd! That batman mask is no use Peter, your secret is out!

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Word of caution though to those with a lot of money burning a hole in their pockets, if one’s idea of the HDR Holy Grail be Dolby Vision and a 4K LG OLED tv, well, the 2015 LG OLEDs don’t support DV and I believe won’t be able to do so through any software upgrade.

Couldn't a Ultra HD Blu-ray player convert the optional HDR systems into 12-bit SMPTE ST 2084? Unless Dolby Vision has a licensing restriction that prevents conversions to other HDR systems the only thing a display should need to support is SMPTE ST 2084.

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

Even though I am excited about HDR, I can see it becoming another contrast ratio race between manufactures, and who can pump out the most light.

Hopefully future video processors will allow the average brightness to be lowered for those movies that use HDR like a sledgehammer.

Originally Posted by 2themax

I think the biggest hurdle for DV will be finding a 12bit panel to display it on. We just got to 10bit.

A display benefits from 12-bit video even with a 10-bit panel since no display will perfectly match the gamma curve of the HDR video signal. The video signal has to be converted to match the display panel and to avoid banding it is useful to have a higher quality video signal. Dolby did an interview about Dolby Vision last year and they mentioned that 12-bit video was better than 10-bit video and that "The 2-bit difference can be observed in today’s content and display technology".

[2themax]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

A display benefits from 12-bit video even with a 10-bit panel since no display will perfectly match the gamma curve of the HDR video signal. The video signal has to be converted to match the display panel and to avoid banding it is useful to have a higher quality video signal. Dolby did an interview about Dolby Vision last year and they mentioned that 12-bit video was better than 10-bit video and that "The 2-bit difference can be observed in today’s content and display technology".

Thanks for that link. Hopefully that means DV support will happen sooner rather than later.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by 2themax

I think the biggest hurdle for DV will be finding a 12bit panel to display it on. We just got to 10bit.

Welcome back 2themax.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I'm sure I spotted him in the crowd! That batman mask is no use Peter, your secret is out!

I had a feeling Sir Alex was eyeballing someone of soccer significance further on down the aisle… http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...Barcelona.html

They just didn’t reveal to us….it was Peter.

P.S.
I still haven’t gotten to Arsenal's Champions league match….hopefully this weekend.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Couldn't a Ultra HD Blu-ray player convert the optional HDR systems into 12-bit SMPTE ST 2084? Unless Dolby Vision has a licensing restriction that prevents conversions to other HDR systems the only thing a display should need to support is SMPTE ST 2084.

That sure would be a nice workaround solution for those early adopting 4K OLED LG TV owners…and it would create even more Ultra HD Blu-ray *Dolby Vision loaded* player sales.

P.S.
For those not following/understanding Richard’s reasoning (i.e. the 2084/Dolby Vision connection with PQ), see….https://vimeo.com/109894755

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Dolby did an interview about Dolby Vision last year

Nice interview and interesting comments at the end by the author and Prof. Chalmers (who is an early HDR pioneer and along with a colleague, very recently made this HDR presentation - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...l#post10354539 )

Unfortunately though, for the goHDR et al. contingent, the HDR demo material displayed on Dolby’s prototype HDR monitor and that on Sony’s newly commercialized 4K OLED master monitor which I’ve viewed for instance, at the last SMPTE tech conference, were both superior looking to that of any HDR video implemented thru any player displayed on a Sim2, which I’ve seen at past NAB show.

[dvdmike]

Sony 2015 4k prices have leaked

XBR-75X940C 75-inch Full-array local dimming $7,999
XBR-65X930C 65-inch Edge-lit local dimming $4,499
XBR-75X910C 75-inch Thin bezel $4,999
XBR-65X900C 65-inch Thin bezel, cabinet $3,999
XBR-55X900C 55-inch Thin bezel, cabinet $2,499
XBR-75X850C 75-inch Triluminous color $4,999
XBR-65X850C 65-inch Triluminous color $3,499
XBR-55X850C 55-inch Triluminous color $2,199
XBR-49X830C 49-inch 4K resolution $1,599
XBR-43X830C 43-inch 4K resolution $1,299

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I had a feeling Sir Alex was eyeballing someone of soccer significance further on down the aisle… http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...Barcelona.html

They just didn’t reveal to us….it was Peter.

P.S.
I still haven’t gotten to Arsenal's Champions league match….hopefully this weekend.

That guy in the front left looks like he has been watching Sunderland!

[AK65]

Originally Posted by dvdmike

Sony 2015 4k prices have leaked

XBR-75X940C 75-inch Full-array local dimming $7,999
XBR-65X930C 65-inch Edge-lit local dimming $4,499
XBR-75X910C 75-inch Thin bezel $4,999
XBR-65X900C 65-inch Thin bezel, cabinet $3,999
XBR-55X900C 55-inch Thin bezel, cabinet $2,499
XBR-75X850C 75-inch Triluminous color $4,999
XBR-65X850C 65-inch Triluminous color $3,499
XBR-55X850C 55-inch Triluminous color $2,199
XBR-49X830C 49-inch 4K resolution $1,599
XBR-43X830C 43-inch 4K resolution $1,299

HDGuru reports that while the X940C and X930C have some breed of HDR, "these series are not able to read the meta-data in upcoming Ultra HD Blu-ray discs and 4K streaming services. Instead the TVs use Sony's new signal processor to guesstimate these criteria. To date, only Samsung's SUHD models (JS9500, JS9000, and JS8500) and Panasonic's CX850 series have this capability." I've checked with Sony to confirm this information.

http://www.cnet.com/news/sony-4k-tvs...rding-to-leak/

[Wickerman1972]

So what happened to the 300gb discs I heard they were working on back in 2013? Supposedly these were to be ready by late 2015, right when 4K blu ray is to launch. But everything I've seen since says they'll be going with 100gb discs (Pathetic) and 66gb discs (Incredibly pathetic) for 4K blu ray.

[Penton-Man]

A follow-up to the old topic of film scanning –

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

The inherent resolution of film, and ‘scanning’ resolution and ultimately the resultant resolution of the files produced from the scanner (i.e. final image size) is a topic which can be a bit unclear.

For instance, under thee most perfect conditions in a lab (locked down camera using no greater than 200 ASA negative shooting immobile test patterns), Super 35mm has an absolute maximum rez of 4153 × 3112 pixels…http://c-sideprod.ch/wp-content/medi...10/4K_plus.pdf . Real world shooting chops that figure down significantly.....and any theoretical figure for full frame capture for that matter.

To harvest the most detail, film is scanned at a higher rez than the final image size files in order to prevent aliasing (Nyquist and Shannon theorem). On that note, the Northlight1 scanner (rather commonplace) scans film at 6K to create a 4K image for colorists to work with.

As to the Northlight2, it can scan even higher in order to create a detailed and nuanced 4K image to work with - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ht#post9991943

and best practice, thereof -

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

A Northlight2 with an 8k array producing 4k files is as good
as it gets except under rather unique circumstances. 4K will get you what you want off the 35mm frames from the real world, it’s only with the sharpest prime lenses, no filter, and locked down camera frames that you may push this.

Among active professionals, the understanding of the needed K’s of scanning film is a not much of a nuanced topic these days and it can even be argued that many having firsthand day-to-day scanning experience on multiple projects in active facilities believe that high dynamic range is of greater impact on final picture quality than meeting Nyquist's oversampling recommendation….or, at least it being of equal import.

Given that, after you’ve pretty much settled on a 4K final image being the most optimal, this leads us to how best scan 35mm film (beyond resolution considerations), esp. Vision 3 in order to harvest all its dynamic range. On that note, it is not uncommon for some facilities to output at 10bit log DPX in order to save money with regards to the memory budget. Best practice for cutting edge high end facilities is to scan and output at 16bit DPX, which is an option on the Northlight2.

Scanner manufacturer aside,….“Amazing Spiderman 2 was shot on film and F65 and we had 4K 16‑bit scans of the film to capture all of that dynamic range and color fidelity”...https://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/..._explained.pdf

Also, given current discussion in this thread, the above article ^ includes visual representations of HDR vs SDR from The Blacklist, Annie and The Amazing Spiderman 2 as well as a piece on Sony’s new 4K (HDR capable) OLED master monitor alluded to last Oct.here

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Wickerman1972

So what happened to the 300gb discs I heard they were working on back in 2013? Supposedly these were to be ready by late 2015, right when 4K blu ray is to launch. But everything I've seen since says they'll be going with 100gb discs (Pathetic) and 66gb discs (Incredibly pathetic) for 4K blu ray.

They were for archive purposes. From what I gather from more knowledgable people, 100gb is more than enough with the new codecs.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by mohit9206

Isn't anyone concerned that once 4K blu rays are out, the normal blu rays will receive less extras than the 4K blu rays to try and lure more people towards 4k?
Similar to how DVD extras all but mostly have vanished. Just look at Interstellar Blu ray vs Dvd extras and you'll know what i mean.

no

1) I am guessing 4K will be like 3D, come with the 1080p version and if so, like I did with 3D, from day 1 I will be buying the 4K BD in prep of when I will get a 4k display and player

2)Eventually I will get a 4K projector and at that point in time I will be buying the 4k version no matter what

3) most extras are pure garbage included just so that they can say " there is a lot of extras"

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

That guy in the front left looks like he has been watching Sunderland!

Or, for that matter, me, while watching Arsenal’s lackluster performance effort in the Monaco Champions League match, which I just finished.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...For instance, under thee most perfect conditions in a lab (locked down camera using no greater than 200 ASA negative shooting immobile test patterns), Super 35mm has an absolute maximum rez of 4153 × 3112 pixels…http://c-sideprod.ch/wp-content/medi...10/4K_plus.pdf . Real world shooting chops that figure down significantly.....

I forgot to mention, the pdf ^ is referenced from the SMPTE Journal Publication 2009 Winner of the year….https://www.smpte.org/about/awards-p...ournal-winners

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by AK65

http://www.cnet.com/news/sony-4k-tvs...rding-to-leak/

Yup that's why I am sony all the way, HDR can do one

[bailey1987]

The 3D extension for HEVC has been completed: http://phenix.int-evry.fr/jct2/doc_e...nt.php?id=2495

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by bailey1987

The 3D extension for HEVC has been completed: http://phenix.int-evry.fr/jct2/doc_e...nt.php?id=2495

You can encode 4k hevc in 3d now kinda, it just needed a standard