4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[atfree]

"planned obsolescence". To a lot of the consumer masses, BD isn't a huge difference over upscaled dvd, i.e., dvd is still huge in physical media sales. And the consumer masses are what push sales. On average screens in most homes, 4k will not be a huge difference over BD/1080. 4k will be, IMO, an enthusiast/early adopter niche but the masses won't be rushing out to replace their existing equipment, especially since it will be years before broadcast/cable/satellite moves to 4k (they already spent BIG $ upgrading to 1080). There are still a few cable networks transmitting in SD.

[slickkeng]

Originally Posted by space blaster

I'm convinced this format will fail.

The only reason the 4K disc format is being finalized is to push new TV adoption and that just isn't going to happen. Ever since the TV sector finally took off with HDTV they were making huge profits but then prices (profits) started to fall, the industry has tried to do everything in their power to push more sales to an already saturated market. You could get a top tier 50" HDTV for $1,000 but they put out the 3D model and tried to charge 3,000 for it then 2,000 and finally gave up and sold them for $1,000 a year later. The same thing happen with TV that had apps. Why they thought a TV that could natively stream netflix would be worth an extra $1,000 is beyond me - especially since streaming boxes are about $100.

So now there's 4k. They want to get a physical media out there to convince people to start buying new TV's again. This too will fail. 55" 1080p watched from 8-10 feet away looks just as good as 4k. You either have to have a small room or get an even larger TV for this to matter. Yeah I've seen 4K displays at Best Buy and yes they look great. I love how it looks but when I'm looking at a display in a store my nose might as well be touching the screen because that's nothing like the viewing conditions at my house.

After making the mistake of early adopting HD-DVD, I will not be early adopting this format. If I'm wrong and the format survives then fine, I'll buy into it. If they have combo packs with 4k discs packed in I'll buy those instead of the regular versions as well (unless they are absurdly expensive). I won't be going out of my way to buy a brand new TV when my current one is really great and blu ray looks fantastic.

Oh and as for the SDTV channels? My wife watches SDTV all the time even though we have HD versions, it drives me nuts. Considering the standard content we watch is cable TV and it is usually 720p and my game systems don't even do 1080p, who cares? I can't imagine how crappy the 480p SDTV will look if my wife watched that on a 4k TV.

edit:
Oh yeah and I'm not in a huge hurry to upgrade my surround sound system again. Yeah, a 4k receiver will be required. Yet MORE hardware to buy.

What most fail to realize is, its not a new format. Its an extension of blu-ray much like 3D was. So I am sure we will be seeing combo packs like we do with 3D - choice is nice! Finally, it is not just about resolution - think expanded color space, HFR, HDR, 10-bit, that will make a bigger difference than simply higher resolution. I understand the resistance to upgrade and all that but simply don't upgrade and allow those that want to a choice. Given time, people will perhaps eventually upgrade but don't resist progress is all I'm saying. Just don't buy in until the time is right for you personally.

[David M]

I wonder if the new profile has provision for 4K 3D. My guess is probably not!

[BluMonday]

I didn't hop onboard Blu-Ray until:

1) the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray war was over.
2) I bought a TV (that was affordable, meaning around $1k) that would actually showcase the difference (1080p).
3) the player and discs were affordable ($100 for player, $5-$20 range).

I don't have to worry about step #1 this time, but I imagine me going over to 4k or even 8k (which is supposedly coming quickly down the pike, too) would have to take the same kind of steps. Other factor is that unless I get a 80" TV, I don't think there would be a noticeable difference. I'm currently watching movies from a distance of 7' with 50"-60" being more than enough real estate for the room size.

Having said all of that, I probably would think differently if my financial and living situation were different. (more money, more theater space).

[Teazle]

BD / HD DVD were supposed to arrive 2005; both got pushed back to 2006 releases. Could be the same thing here. No guarantee the format will be ready for Xmas '15 as promised.

[Teazle]

The back-compat and "dual sided" claims continue to puzzle me. Unless it's something weird like a player w/ 2 laser diodes (expensive!) that can read both sides of the disc at once. One side could be standard BD-25/50; the other extra data in the new format. I guess?

[BluMonday]

Originally Posted by space blaster

Oh and as for the SDTV channels? My wife watches SDTV all the time even though we have HD versions, it drives me nuts. Considering the standard content we watch is cable TV and it is usually 720p and my game systems don't even do 1080p, who cares? I can't imagine how crappy the 480p SDTV will look if my wife watched that on a 4k TV.

Holy sh*t my wife does this, too. I had to block out the SD channels in the Guide section on our cable. Also she's fine watching a channel's OnDemand service even if it's SD and wrong aspect ratio/black frame around the image (BBC America, Disney, Comedy Central & TNT are a few guilty of this) We got EPIX for free over the weekend one time and there were a bunch of movies we wanted to see for a while on their OnDemand, but the same thing... a huge black frame around the image and SD. They would air the proper HD version though so I managed to DVR a few of those. I would leave the room and do something else if she started up an EPIX OnDemand movie, lol. I breathed a sigh of relief when the free trial service was over on Monday.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by space blaster

I'm convinced this format will fail.

Why do people think that what they personally want or don't want applies to the entire market? Opinions like yours have been said about every new technology that has come along.

Occasionally, a new technology does fail. But most technologies that have support from multiple manufacturers usually do quite well. While I agree that most consumers actually don't care about image quality, there are enough that do to make a market and there are others who will think, "oh, 4K must be better than 1080 because it's a bigger number, so I want that."

For the first five years or so of its life, 4K will not be about the mass market. It will be about the early adopter, Wall Street bonus baby; 'I live with my parents but have a decent job, so I can afford this new toy since I can't get a date' market. But the manufacturers (like Sony and Panasonic) have finally come to the conclusion that it's better to sell fewer sets and make a profit on each one than sell zillions and lose money on every set.

Now one could argue that (for example), a push towards HD OLED would have made more sense than a push to 4K but we're going to see a phase-in of both at the same time.

I still remember walking into the now defunct Harvey Radio on 45th street in Manhattan, sitting down on a couch and being amazed by a 50" 720p plasma set that cost $20,000 and probably looked worse than the $500 sets you can buy in Walmart today. And I thought, "who would pay this kind of money just to watch TV and movies?" But prices eventually drop and consumers will buy just as they've bought virtually every other new product that has hit the market.

Will 4K have the adoption pattern of HD sets? Of course not - no one expects that. What 4K is about is selling sets to those who must have the latest and so when each consumer gets into a replacement cycle, they opt to purchase a set that the manufacturers can make money on.

The auto industry puts out "new" models every year. That doesn't mean they expect you to buy a new car every year. It means that when you do, they can offer you the latest car technology, even though in most years, the differences are almost totally cosmetic.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Not to correct but to enlighten regarding another aspect…one big challenge is dialing in the encoding parameters to provide exceptional quality at what content producers will consider to be an acceptable encoding time in the early life of HEVC. Not saying this will happen, but potentially, it could lead to some variability in the 4K picture quality from studio to studio.

Which gives hope for 4K screenshot scientists.

Like screenshot science was ever gonna go away in the 4K era. We're just getting warmed up.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Teazle

BD / HD DVD were supposed to arrive 2005; both got pushed back to 2006 releases. Could be the same thing here. No guarantee the format will be ready for Xmas '15 as promised.

Yes, the target date could slip, but the greater likelihood is that some advanced support (WCG, HDR) could be phased in.

This task is complex with a lot of moving parts – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ts#post9683677

Something else that folks should have some perspective of is that television manufacturers really did not like the idea of 10bit support and content providers (studios) really did not like the idea of 2020, since everything is normally graded in P3 and colorists go from there – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...p3#post9623181

So, not only has there been technological hurdles to overcome but there has been a fair amount of negotiation between all parties behind the scenes. The take home message is that a firm target launch date has been publicly revealed (which tends to hold everyone's feet to the fire) and instead of getting plain vanilla 4K Blu-ray specs (8bit 2160p), which easily could have happened if stakeholders wanted to rush in the 4KBD format; instead, the BDA strived for some UHD qualities given economical realities.

b.t.w., where the heck is my mustache scissors recommendation , I don’t think I ever received it? You're reminding me of Ron Jones who never gave me any GPS coordinates to a good fishing spot off Ft. Meyers.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Like screenshot science was ever gonna go away in the 4K era. We're just getting warmed up.

I miss those guys. You could literally have a whole active thread dedicated to 2 frame grabs.

Perhaps vargo can spur some interest, e.g. - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...le#post9665800
and we can have some rekindling of a lost art.

[Steedeel]

It would be cool if every home cinema fan on social networks had a note stating that regular blurays and DVD can be played on 4k bluray players. Fully compatible with current disc based collections lol. It would be a start.

[Teazle]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Yes, the target date could slip, but the greater likelihood is that some advanced support (WCG, HDR) could be phased in.

This task is complex with a lot of moving parts – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ts#post9683677

Something else that folks should have some perspective of is that television manufacturers really did not like the idea of 10bit support and content providers (studios) really did not like the idea of 2020, since everything is normally graded in P3 and colorists go from there – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...p3#post9623181

So, not only has there been technological hurdles to overcome but there has been a fair amount of negotiation between all parties behind the scenes. The take home message is that a firm target launch date has been publicly revealed (which tends to hold everyone's feet to the fire) and instead of getting plain vanilla 4K Blu-ray specs (8bit 2160p), which easily could have happened if stakeholders wanted to rush in the 4KBD format; instead, the BDA strived for some UHD qualities given economical realities.

b.t.w., where the heck is my mustache scissors recommendation , I don’t think I ever received it? You're reminding me of Ron Jones who never gave me any GPS coordinates to a good fishing spot off Ft. Meyers.

Thanks Penton for another informative post. Very much appreciated as always!

Re: mustache, the avatar isn't me but an Austrian mustache competition finalist. I use the pic for inspiration (am usually clean shaven). Scissors I don't know, but I understand from an old BBC article that it takes heavy wax / hairspray to get that multi-pronged 'stache effect.

[Jimmy Smith]

Originally Posted by Lyris

I wonder if the new profile has provision for 4K 3D. My guess is probably not!

It would be a necessary addition. 3D to 2D is a downgrade no matter what the resolution is

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Teazle

Thanks Penton for another informative post. Very much appreciated as always!

Re: mustache, the avatar isn't me but an Austrian mustache competition finalist. I use the pic for inspiration (am usually clean shaven). Scissors I don't know, but I understand from an old BBC article that it takes heavy wax / hairspray to get that multi-pronged 'stache effect.

I see, well thanks for the background info as I’m always curious as to why/how members choose their avatar pics. Mine is actually a patch from back in the day and is related to my past dirt bike riding on the motorcycle imported from Austria by the man who inspired me to race nationally as well as internationally …http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/06/19...-movie-review/

YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Jason One

..other possible frame rates. It should at least have:

48

Sorry Jason. No joy on 48.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Yes, the target date could slip, but the greater likelihood is that some advanced support (WCG, HDR) could be phased in.

Personally I would prefer 4K Blu-ray get delayed a bit than for them to start removing features. While it is always possible to add optional features later on that tends to decrease the chance of them being used (3D Blu-ray, xvYCC Blu-ray, MGVC Blu-ray, etc...).

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

True. People are not looking at the whole picture. It's no just movies where 4k could make a impact. I sometimes think people want all future pq improvements to cease and regress to VHS. (We are nearly there now with streaming lol)

I hope this isn't what you got out of my previous post (since he was replying to your reply to my previous post).

My point was simply wanting combo packs since it would help make for an easy transition to this new(ish) format.

If I didn't care about pq, I wouldn't be interested in this new 4K format at all. And I also wouldn't have opted for the tv that I just bougt a month or so ago... the Samsung plamsa PN64F8500.... which is a very highly rated set (in many reviews it evdn won out over many currecnt 4k sets), and was NOT cheap. I opted for it because I have been putting off getting a new tv (having used a 37 inch 720p set as my main tv since 2007 until this recent purchase) until I was in a position to be able to get a really nice set (my wife and I make decent money, but we just had various strings of other financial obligations that kept coming up). I was originally going to wait a bit longer (until next year), but with plasma still generally being the to rated affordable technology for pq, with it also on the brink of being discontinued, and having just paid off my wife's braces, I went for it.

I'm sure there will be 4k sets sooner or later that surpass the set that I just got at a price that is comparable or even better. Maybe even in the next year or two. But it is what it is. I'll probably get one evetually, but I don't see upgrading the set that I just got for at least 5 years. There will always be something better on the horizon. At some point I just have to take the plunge, otherwise I'll never enjoy any technology.

My previous points were simply regarding my hope for combo packs since I'm not going to rush out and rebuy equipment for every room in my house. Even if I get a 4k BD player for my living room to go with my new tv and get the best possible picture out of the set that I currently have (which I hope would offer at least somhe improvement even with my current tv), I would still have the regular BD for my other rooms and so forth.


As for the larger potential impact of 4K beyond movies, that requires a form of real effort and progress that I'm not holding my breath on happening. I don't expect downloads, streaming, or even tv/cable/satelite signals to be in true 4k anytime soon. Heck, even the best of those things still fall at least somewhat short of the quality that 'regular' blu-ray currently offers. Without major changes to the infrastructure that supports thse things, I don't see a change on the horizon anytime soon. This therefore leave the best 4k potental in the hands of packaged media. This means movies and, if we are lucky, a few tv show season sets. Considering that tv season set support on regular BD is spotty... with some studios not releasing or inconsistently releasing tv shows on BD (this year Fox, for example, is only releasing DVD season sets of several TV shows that it has reeased the past several season of on BD), I'm not really holding my breath on 4K BD releases being much better.

[mredman]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I hope this isn't what you got out of my previous post (since he was replying to your reply to my previous post).

My point was simply wanting combo packs since it would help make for an easy transition to this new(ish) format.

If I didn't care about pq, I wouldn't be interested in this new 4K format at all. And I also wouldn't have opted for the tv that I just bougt a month or so ago... the Samsung plamsa PN64F8500.... which is a very highly rated set (in many reviews it evdn won out over many currecnt 4k sets), and was NOT cheap. I opted for it because I have been putting off getting a new tv (having used a 37 inch 720p set as my main tv since 2007 until this recent purchase) until I was in a position to be able to get a really nice set (my wife and I make decent money, but we just had various strings of other financial obligations that kept coming up). I was originally going to wait a bit longer (until next year), but with plasma still generally being the to rated affordable technology for pq, with it also on the brink of being discontinued, and having just paid off my wife's braces, I went for it.

I'm sure there will be 4k sets sooner or later that surpass the set that I just got at a price that is comparable or even better. Maybe even in the next year or two. But it is what it is. I'll probably get one evetually, but I don't see upgrading the set that I just got for at least 5 years. There will always be something better on the horizon. At some point I just have to take the plunge, otherwise I'll never enjoy any technology.

My previous points were simply regarding my hope for combo packs since I'm not going to rush out and rebuy equipment for every room in my house. Even if I get a 4k BD player for my living room to go with my new tv and get the best possible picture out of the set that I currently have (which I hope would offer at least somhe improvement even with my current tv), I would still have the regular BD for my other rooms and so forth.


As for the larger potential impact of 4K beyond movies, that requires a form of real effort and progress that I'm not holding my breath on happening. I don't expect downloads, streaming, or even tv/cable/satelite signals to be in true 4k anytime soon. Heck, even the best of those things still fall at least somewhat short of the quality that 'regular' blu-ray currently offers. Without major changes to the infrastructure that supports thse things, I don't see a change on the horizon anytime soon. This therefore leave the best 4k potental in the hands of packaged media. This means movies and, if we are lucky, a few tv show season sets. Considering that tv season set support on regular BD is spotty... with some studios not releasing or inconsistently releasing tv shows on BD (this year Fox, for example, is only releasing DVD season sets of several TV shows that it has reeased the past several season of on BD), I'm not really holding my breath on 4K BD releases being much better.

This is not true. Yeah FOX do not release sit coms on blu ray and who can blame them and White Collar i believe. Rest is still being released on blu ray. So you are exaggerating big time here.

[Stlsports]

This has gotta be the end of the road you would think. At one time I thought DVD was the best thing ever. Huge step up from VHS. Then we got Blu Ray and I thought, now is there anything even higher than this; and of course that's where 4k comes in. But after that I REALLY don't think they'll go higher will they? Sure I'm hearing rumblings about 8K TV's but how in the world is that ever going to translate to the home viewer? Plus all these films shot digitally at 2K or raw 2.8K are nowhere near 8k. Even a lot of the older movies shot on 35 probably don't come close to 8k scanned resolution so I really hope 4K is the final straw.