HDR Discussion Thread

[DanBa]

The Deep Dive on Bit Depth
https://www.projectorcentral.com/All...-Bit-Depth.htm



"Grayscale signal data for each primary color, when illuminated by light of that color, combine to form a full color image."


"X-bits per color, X-bits pixel, X-bit color. Unfortunately, all of these terms are widely used to describe bit-depth capabilities in displays, which creates confusion. They don't always mean the same thing.

If we're talking about a monochrome display—something you won't likely be shopping for anytime soon—all three terms do refer to the same value. So a display deemed to have "8-bits per color" can also be described as an "8-bits per pixel" or simply an "8-bit color" display.

But in a full color display—more relevant to today's projectors—the term "X-bits per color" describes the number of tonal values found in each of the three grayscales formed from the video signal's R, G, and B data channels (as described in the previous section). So, if X=8, then "8-bits per color" generates 256 tonal values per color.

On the other hand, with color displays the terms "X-bits per pixel" or "X-bit color" describe the total product value of all grayscale images. So in this case, you can expect to see the value of X expressed as three times the value you'd see associated with the term "X-bits per color." Therefore...if you see "24-bits per pixel" or just "24-bit color," it means the display has the same potential colors as a display labeled "8-bits per color.""

[Penton-Man]

follow-up to the episodic series Lost in Space - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post15367516

a lens switch for Season 2 - https://www.cookeoptics.com/u/news.h...st-in-space-5i

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by puddy77

While I believe the 18 bit processing (don't Sony home TVs do 16 bit processing?), the 16 bit there is referring to grayscale. So they don't mention the actual color display specs, but I believe it's 10 bit until proven otherwise

Sony X-1 Extreme processor uses 14-bit internally (no matter 10-bit or 12-bit output from the player). I think the newer X-1 Ultimate is still the same.
Have not seen mention of 16-bit for home display tv ASFAIK.

[puddy77]

Thanks guys. So the Samsung large scale displays claim 16 bit color with a P3 gamut. And a quick Google brings up other large scale indoor/outdoor displays claiming 16 bit. The LG Cinema Display claims 12 bit P3. Yet all the professional grading monitors top out at 10 bit 2020. So what’s going on? Is anything above 10 bit purely marketing BS right now? Or are there actually display breakthroughs going on right now that no one is talking about?

[Kris Deering]

Careful not to confuse the processing power in bits to the actual panel drivers. Just because the processing is high bit rate doesn't mean the display is that bit depth end to end.

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Careful not to confuse the processing power in bits to the actual panel drivers. Just because the processing is high bit rate doesn't mean the display is that bit depth end to end.

Right. But the specs Dan linked to above say 16 bit color and 18 bit processing. Those specs seem inflated to me. I’d like to know what’s going on.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by puddy77

Thanks guys. So the Samsung large scale displays claim 16 bit color with a P3 gamut. And a quick Google brings up other large scale indoor/outdoor displays claiming 16 bit. The LG Cinema Display claims 12 bit P3. Yet all the professional grading monitors top out at 10 bit 2020. So what’s going on? Is anything above 10 bit purely marketing BS right now? Or are there actually display breakthroughs going on right now that no one is talking about?

DCI spec for color depth has always been 12 bit. That's the minimum. So all cinema projectors do 12 bit. Some do 14 bit (Laser) and best quality do 16 bit (Laser). They will say P3 color compliant (DCI mandate) and either 95% Rec 2020 or 98% Rec 2020. No fudging allowed.

These tile style cinema walls us a different technology (MicroLED) than pro monitors use (LCD/OLED)

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

DCI spec for color depth has always been 12 bit. That's the minimum. So all cinema projectors do 12 bit. Some do 14 bit (Laser) and best quality do 16 bit (Laser). They will say P3 color compliant (DCI mandate) and either 95% Rec 2020 or 98% Rec 2020. No fudging allowed.

These tile style cinema walls us a different technology (MicroLED) than pro monitors use (LCD/OLED)

Thanks. I knew that about laser projectors. But I hadn’t thought of these as being the only MicroLED displays. So that’s the only emissive display tech that can do greater than 10 bit color right now? Interesting.

[Lee A Stewart]

The emphasis on improvements for both LCD and OLED (for consumer TVs) is brightness not color depth.

There is a 12 bit professional monitor: Dolby PRM 4200

https://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/...1010_final.pdf

[Hellraiserfan]

Not sure where else to ask this but what is typically better? Oled or Qled?

[X-rayvision]

Originally Posted by Hellraiserfan

Not sure where else to ask this but what is typically better? Oled or Qled?

Always Oled unless you like watching movies in rooms with alot of ambient light, specifically sunlight. In those cases lcd (qled) will look better than oled esp if you buy full array backlit led tv ( the more zones the better). If its not full array dont even bother, all edge lit lcds are crap unless you like elevated blacks (eg grey not true black), blooming and light bleed. There were a few sony led tvs that approximate oled but i dont believe they are still in production. I dont know about the new 2020 master series leds. If you do go led go sony forget about samsung.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Careful not to confuse the processing power in bits to the actual panel drivers. Just because the processing is high bit rate doesn't mean the display is that bit depth end to end.

Yes, Sony and the other high end panels are 10-bit. Sony gets their’s from panel vendors, (not sure if China or Korea manufacturers)... note some of the cheap 4K displays are still 8-bit with extra sauce.

Anyway, the 14-bit internal Sony processing is effective in minimizing banding, and Sony has a stored image pattern process (sounds similar to the images used by the “AI” 8K tvs) and the bit depth may assist in that process? Don’t know that for sure. The info on the banding I picked up on from postings by GeoffD (kudos).

[X-rayvision]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Yes, Sony and the other high end panels are 10-bit. Sony gets their’s from panel vendors, (not sure if China or Korea manufacturers)... note some of the cheap 4K displays are still 8-bit with extra sauce.

Anyway, the 14-bit internal Sony processing is effective in minimizing banding, and Sony has a stored image pattern process (sounds similar to the images used by the “AI” 8K tvs) and the bit depth may assist in that process? Don’t know that for sure. The info on the banding I picked up on from postings by GeoffD (kudos).

I dont know where sony buys their lcd panels but oleds are bought from lg. They just slap their xbr engine on them and send them out for retail. This is why samsung refuses to make oled, lg and samsung are major competitors in korea, they do not like each other. There is no way in hell samsung would ever consider buying oled panels from LG, tv offerings be damned they would rather go out of business then concede face. Relations are so bad that the south korean gov had to slap them with cease and desist orders so they would stop slandering each other in public ads

[Hellraiserfan]

Originally Posted by X-rayvision

Always Oled unless you like watching movies in rooms with alot of ambient light, specifically sunlight. In those cases lcd (qled) will look better than oled esp if you buy full array backlit led tv ( the more zones the better). If its not full array dont even bother, all edge lit lcds are crap unless you like elevated blacks (eg grey not true black), blooming and light bleed. There were a few sony led tvs that approximate oled but i dont believe they are still in production. I dont know about the new 2020 master series leds. If you do go led go sony forget about samsung.

Thanks for the response!

The guy at video only was telling me QLEDs have better black levels but showed me the difference between QLEDs and OLEDs and there is more of a reflection on QLEDs. If I watch movies with the room dark or lights all off wouldn't QLED be a bit better due to the black levels or is that bs?

Originally Posted by X-rayvision

I dont know where sony buys their lcd panels but oleds are bought from lg. They just slap their xbr engine on them and send them out for retail. This is why samsung refuses to make oled, lg and samsung are major competitors in korea, they do not like each other. There is no way in hell samsung would ever consider buying oled panels from LG, tv offerings be damned they would rather go out of business then concede face. Relations are so bad that the south korean gov had to slap them with cease and desist orders so they would stop slandering each other in public ads

See this has me confused. Not questioning your knowledge over the Video Only sales person's but he was saying Samsung makes OLED (or maybe it was something else) due to LG having a patent on QLED.

I'm finally ready to make that jump to a 4K TV and want to make sure I get something really good. I'm aiming for a 65". I am currently renting a room in a house but my bed is far enough away from the wall to where I should be good with such a big TV.

[X-rayvision]

Originally Posted by Hellraiserfan

Thanks for the response!

The guy at video only was telling me QLEDs have better black levels but showed me the difference between QLEDs and OLEDs and there is more of a reflection on QLEDs. If I watch movies with the room dark or lights all off wouldn't QLED be a bit better due to the black levels or is that bs?

No in a dark room oled is always better then qled, the blacks will be pure black, eg no light whatsoever whereas with qled the lights are always on all they can do is dim. This is why local dimming is so important. Oled is an emissive display meaning each pixel turns on and off like a lightswitch independent of what the pixels are doing around them. Qleds run of a backlight thats must always be on, the pixels do not turn on or off, the light dims on certain areas of the screen to achieve “black”.

[Hellraiserfan]

Originally Posted by X-rayvision

No in a dark room oled is always better then qled, the blacks will be pure black, eg no light whatsoever whereas with qled the lights are always on all they can do is dim. Oled is an emissive display meaning each pixel turns on and off like a lightswitch independent of what the pixels are doing around them. Qleds run of a backlight thats must always be on, the pixels do not turn on or off, the light dims on certain areas of the screen to achieve “black”.

So OLED it is! What brand do you prefer?

[X-rayvision]

Originally Posted by Hellraiserfan

So OLED it is! What brand do you prefer?

Thats tough but id only consider lg and sony if you live in the states. If your in europe panny is always an option but id forget all the rest, unless your looking for budget rather then premium. I personally prefer the higher luminance of the lg oleds over the better motion handling on the sonys. I am not very sensitive to panning judder, what im sensitive too is the ****ing opera effect, i turn all motion shit enhancements off. One thing to keep in mind is that lg supplies all the oled panels to sony, if you believe in the panel lotery, id say you have a better shot with lg then sony. Youd think lg would keep the best panels and sell the rest to competitors.

[Hellraiserfan]

Originally Posted by X-rayvision

Thats tough but id only consider lg and sony if you live in the states. If your in europe panny is always an option but id forget all the rest, unless your looking for budget rather then premium. I personally prefer the higher luminance of the lg oleds over the better motion handling on the sonys. I am not very sensitive to panning judder, what im sensitive too is the ****ing opera effect, i turn all motion shit enhancements off.

Same here! I've hated the soap opera effect since I first noticed it a long time ago. I always turn that down and have helped others showing them where on their TVs to turn it off.

Thanks for all the help!

[Lee A Stewart]

Fireflies help make LED light bulbs more efficient. The bugs' lanterns have microstructures, or asymmetrical microscopic projections, that release light. Researchers from Penn State found that adding microstructures to the surface of LEDs, which typically have symmetrical projections, allows more light to escape, making them more efficient and improving light extraction by 90 percent.

[Penton-Man]

https://register.gotowebinar.com/reg...ry+Box+Webinar