4K Movies Releases

[hazelwu]

http://thedigitalbits.com/columns/my...ts/010914_1300

There's progress now, is it?

[Penton-Man]

Boy, Bill’s a Blu-ray blast from the past. Reminds of the time in Blu-ray mastering with the man-in-charge about a year ago now - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ge#post6782166

Anyway, good to see Bill (the self-professed “half-mad expert”) is still in the editorial business. I hadn’t realized. I should send him an email about his B&W four-legged friends.

But to answer your question, Yes to progress, as I tried to explain on the last page, which you may have missed -
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ss#post8638191

And No, after reading Bill’s 2 cents, the key question in the difficult road in terms of Hollywood support in the grand scheme of things (which is really of import and of which all things are based) is how to get studios more onboard to finish their motion pictures in 4K in the first place, even when there is little to no VFX involved, e.g. excellent films like Fox Searchlight’s 12 Years A Slave, Disney’s picture about Disney - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ks#post8439627

Because in order to get a sustaining pipeline of 4K movies into the home, you need more original 4K motion picture content to begin with…..which, despite all the CES publicity, is still more like the exception rather than the rule.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Although I think not mentioned in the article, ‘Jack Ryan’ consists of about an 80/20 film to digital mix, here’s your filmic part to savor in Kodak print…http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Publi...c_Approach.htm

b.t.w., despite what is currently listed as of this moment for Jack Ryan: Shadow Recruit in the imdb specs…”Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)” - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1205537/...ef_=tt_dt_spec , movie-goers should not plan on their local Cineplex receiving a 4K DCP of this motion picture and thusly not viewing native 4K content.

Expect rather the DCP image format to be 2048 X 858 2.39 Scope.
2K D-Cinema projectors will show it at 2K.
4K D-Cinema projectors will upconvert.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Dolby HDR

A typical design process for a Dolby HDR display (with caveats as so noted) is provided in a middle section of this patent description…http://patents.justia.com/patent/20130293596

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Sounds like a simple resolution bump. He also makes it sound like it could be a metadata thing where extra info is copied to a drive and added to the presentation. This could be interpretted in different ways but I dread the thought of doing something like Sony is with their "mastered in 4K" releases.

What I fear most is that 4K Blu-ray will support higher resolution and nothing else. That a few years later the BDA will add support for other features as downloadable enhancement data that will be available for some of the movies. While it would be horrible for consumers I can understand why the CE companies might be tempted to do that. They want to release 4K Blu-ray as soon as possible and as cheaply as possible so why bother supporting features that their current 4K TVs can't show? As an added bonus the CE companies could double sell 4K Blu-ray players while the studios could charge an additional fee for downloading the enhancement data. I think that kind of short sighted greed would cause 4K Blu-ray to do poorly so I hope this isn't what they are planning.

Originally Posted by vargo

66GB suggests a two-layer disc with BDXL pit density.

Something I have said for a long time is that 3 and 4 layer discs are very difficult and expensive to replicate....perhaps this is one idea that is being thrown around behind closed doors.

I wouldn't have a problem with 66 GB discs if they included support for 10-bit video and the Rec. 2020 color space. If though the BDA is simply throwing together a cheap solution than I would be disappointed.

[vargo]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

I wouldn't have a problem with 66 GB discs if they included support for 10-bit video and the Rec. 2020 color space. If though the BDA is simply throwing together a cheap solution than I would be disappointed.

If you were launching a new disc format, it would seem highly unusual not to include the capability to read 3 or 4 layer discs. The technology is easy and would not add much to each player. Even if you planned to mostly use 2-layer in the early days of the format for financial reasons.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by vargo

If you were launching a new disc format, it would seem highly unusual not to include the capability to read 3 or 4 layer discs. The technology is easy and would not add much to each player. Even if you planned to mostly use 2-layer in the early days of the format for financial reasons.

I hope that 4K Blu-ray does support 3 layer 100 GB discs but personally I am most concerned about what features it will support. It sounds like it might be better if they don't release the specs for it this year.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

enhancement data

The following (just published a few weeks ago) is a real time solution proposed by Dolby (i.e. ‘Dolby Vision’) invented to deliver that enhancement data (HDR and WCG of your choice) vis-a-vie multi-layer encoding and decoding, see around [0029] here - http://www.google.com/patents/EP2675162A2?cl=en and concerned citizens can just update that and other relevant paragraphs therein with the embodiment ‘10-bit HEVC for 4K/UHD’’, which is no problemo for Dolby.

And for the professionals out there reading who are not involved in any pertinent SMPTE standardization working groups or projects, but still are very interested in the how and why regarding the initial part of the Dolby ecosystem, you can learn more about it next month by attending Session 3 at SPIE - click on the abstract of the presentation by author(s) Dr. Nezamabadi et al. "Color signal encoding for high dynamic range and wide color gamut based on human perception" - http://spie.org/EI/conferencedetails...maging#2042893

In the meantime, colorists can play as suggested - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...rm#post8637283 and mind-boggle the minds of their visiting clients.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

What I fear most is that 4K Blu-ray will support higher resolution and nothing else. That a few years later the BDA will add support for other features as downloadable enhancement data that will be available for some of the movies. While it would be horrible for consumers I can understand why the CE companies might be tempted to do that. They want to release 4K Blu-ray as soon as possible and as cheaply as possible so why bother supporting features that their current 4K TVs can't show? As an added bonus the CE companies could double sell 4K Blu-ray players while the studios could charge an additional fee for downloading the enhancement data. I think that kind of short sighted greed would cause 4K Blu-ray to do poorly so I hope this isn't what they are planning.


I wouldn't have a problem with 66 GB discs if they included support for 10-bit video and the Rec. 2020 color space. If though the BDA is simply throwing together a cheap solution than I would be disappointed.

Well, Blu-ray itself did not come to market fully formed, and ultimately that didn't harm its chances against its main competitor at that time, eventually winning out over HD DVD. BUT times have changed, and 4K BD hasn't got a disc-based rival at all. Because of the nebulous nature of all this 4K streaming malarkey, it can change and adapt more readily than a physical format, so if 4K BD is done in a similarly piecemeal fashion as its predecessor then it may be made to look very outdated by its streaming brethren.

Trouble is, if they wait too long to accomodate some/all of the HDR/HFR/WCG goodness that's being discussed, i.e. to release a somewhat more 'complete' 4K BD product, then 4K streaming might've already become too entrenched in people's homes and, more importantly, their mindsets, for them to go out and spend again on physical 4K media.

I can't help but feel that Bill Hunt's suspicions are correct, that 4K BD isn't being hurried along because it's just not that much of a concern for the studios. People have long talked about current BD as being the laserdisc of its day, I think it's obvious that it's become more than that - however, 4K BD may well fulfil that prophecy, becoming a pricey, technologically outdated niche beloved only by a hardcore of collectors.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Well, Blu-ray itself did not come to market fully formed, and ultimately that didn't harm its chances against its main competitor at that time, eventually winning out over HD DVD. BUT times have changed, and 4K BD hasn't got a disc-based rival at all. Because of the nebulous nature of all this 4K streaming malarkey, it can change and adapt more readily than a physical format, so if 4K BD is done in a similarly piecemeal fashion as its predecessor then it may be made to look very outdated by its streaming brethren.

Trouble is, if they wait too long to accomodate some/all of the HDR/HFR/WCG goodness that's being discussed, i.e. to release a somewhat more 'complete' 4K BD product, then 4K streaming might've already become too entrenched in people's homes and, more importantly, their mindsets, for them to go out and spend again on physical 4K media.

I can't help but feel that Bill Hunt's suspicions are correct, that 4K BD isn't being hurried along because it's just not that much of a concern for the studios. People have long talked about current BD as being the laserdisc of its day, I think it's obvious that it's become more than that - however, 4K BD may well fulfil that prophecy, becoming a pricey, technologically outdated niche beloved only by a hardcore of collectors.

With optical media it's simple. Stick the disc in and enjoy movie night.
With streaming their are too many variables at the moment. Reliable connection, data limits, drop in picture quality depending on bandwidth and the inconsistency that some people have with their modem. If the internet is down, no movie night. I like the reliability and the quality of Blu ray. Once we leave behind bluray we leave behind quality. Mark my words.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by vargo

If you were launching a new disc format, it would seem highly unusual not to include the capability to read 3 or 4 layer discs. The technology is easy and would not add much to each player. Even if you planned to mostly use 2-layer in the early days of the format for financial reasons.

agree.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Because of the nebulous nature of all this 4K streaming malarkey, it can change and adapt more readily than a physical format, so if 4K BD is done in a similarly piecemeal fashion as its predecessor then it may be made to look very outdated by its streaming brethren.

No offence but I don't know why people tend to believe such complete garbage. There is no benefit from streaming/DL vs physical media in that way. The media are never the issue, the HW is an issue and it is an issue no matter if the distribution is virtual or physical. Think about it, was the 2006 Samsung BD player I bought not able to add 3D (for example) because the BD physical format could not add 3D or 3Dcould not be added to the BD Disk? or really because the processing power not enough and or the SW not updated. Do you think the streaming stand alone player someone bought last year will magically and automatically be able to decode HEVC 4K when/if Netflix adds it because it can now play Netflix films?

Let me put it this way. Joe buys a brand new UHD BD player, Joe uses it for BDs and Netflix's UHD offering, now people are asking for HDR/HFR/WCG (we will assume it is new to both) why do you think Joes player could and would be SW updated for the Netflix UHD HDR/HFR/WCG but it would be harder for the same for the BD playback (or vice versa)?

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

With optical media it's simple. Stick the disc in and enjoy movie night.
With streaming their are too many variables at the moment. Reliable connection, data limits, drop in picture quality depending on bandwidth and the inconsistency that some people have with their modem.

good point. At this point BD is 48mbps (for pure A/V) and 50GB (and some films beyond that split on two disks), I am guessing both those limits will increase with 4K. For streaming the reality is that we are no where near those limits or close to those limits. So when people say physical media is a show stopper to further evolution it really does not make any sense.

[Penton-Man]

My personal position is that 4K Blu-ray has to offer something special in terms of video and audio quality, rather than only a physical media delivery mechanism for 4K rez 8 bit 4:2:0 content with minimal boosting (>15Mbps) in bitrate over that proposed by Netflix for streaming based upon original scientific research done by independent labs (with caveats)…..https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ed#post8579412

Otherwise, I tend to agree with the tagline in red in the middle of this article ….”4K is not going to have a major lifetime on a plastic disc” - http://mobile.theverge.com/2014/1/10...s-4k-streaming

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

SMPTE

b.t.w., in pursuit of separating the wheat from the chaff, so-to-speak, from the last CES….https://www.smpte.org/webcasts <- be there or be square, as the webcast will not only be a learning experience but, if one is not a SMPTE member, a $49.00 cost for non-members could end up saving you hundreds from making a poor purchasing decision in the future). One of the guest speakers, Michael D. was the Tech Lead for the BDA from ’09 thru 2012.

*mainstream press take note….if one is a videophile, when marginal improvements are involved, one can not critically evaluate the picture quality of any one TV over another given the bright ambient lighting conditions and white walls present encompassing many manufacturers’ CES marketing demos. Keep that in mind with some of your confident sounding pronouncements.

[Esox50]

Will Netflix's 4K streaming use DTS-MA or Dolby True HS lossless audio at 24/48?

If not, then it's even more of a non-starter for me. I would never take a step back in audio and go back to lossy Dolby Digital or DTS.

This whole streaming push is ridiculous, unless you're part of the HTIB/Soundbar crowd.

[Esox50]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

My personal position is that 4K Blu-ray has to offer something special in terms of video and audio quality, rather than only a physical media delivery mechanism for 4K rez 8 bit 4:2:0 content with minimal boosting (>15Mbps) in bitrate over that proposed by Netflix for streaming based upon original scientific research done by independent labs (with caveats)…..https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ed#post8579412

Otherwise, I tend to agree with the tagline in red in the middle of this article ….”4K is not going to have a major lifetime on a plastic disc” - http://mobile.theverge.com/2014/1/10...s-4k-streaming

I assume we'll need 10bit panels if/when the Blu-Ray 4K comes out and it has 4:4:4, right? If so, then 95% of the 2014 UHD panels are dead product as they won't max out the ability of the Blu-Ray 4K.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Well, Blu-ray itself did not come to market fully formed, and ultimately that didn't harm its chances against its main competitor at that time, eventually winning out over HD DVD. BUT times have changed, and 4K BD hasn't got a disc-based rival at all. Because of the nebulous nature of all this 4K streaming malarkey, it can change and adapt more readily than a physical format, so if 4K BD is done in a similarly piecemeal fashion as its predecessor then it may be made to look very outdated by its streaming brethren.

The idea of adding features to 4K Blu-ray later on does seem like a horrible deal for consumers. Scalable video coding is more expensive to decode and requires a higher bit rate (some of the scalable color gamut methods proposed for HEVC require a bit rate increase of over 60%).

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Trouble is, if they wait too long to accomodate some/all of the HDR/HFR/WCG goodness that's being discussed, i.e. to release a somewhat more 'complete' 4K BD product, then 4K streaming might've already become too entrenched in people's homes and, more importantly, their mindsets, for them to go out and spend again on physical 4K media.

Average internet speeds have been increasing slowly over the last several years and there is the issue of bandwidth caps. I think there is plenty of time for another physical video format and that it would be better for the 4K Blu-ray standard to get released a year or two from now and be done right than for them to rush it out and get something that will look outdated 3 years from now.

Originally Posted by Anthony P

Do you think the streaming stand alone player someone bought last year will magically and automatically be able to decode HEVC 4K when/if Netflix adds it because it can now play Netflix films?

I think he was referring to the Netflix service and not to a specific hardware device. Netflix has different video streams and can pick the best one to send to the Netflix device. If the device supports 10-bit video with the Rec. 2020 color space than Netflix can send that video stream to the device. On the other hand once the 4K Blu-ray standard is defined that becomes the limiting factor for every 4K Blu-ray disc released.

[raygendreau]

Netflix UHD will stream directly to the TV, no other hardware is required.

"And it looks like it [Netflix] will be streaming to LG Ultra HD TVs - at least to start. All 12 of LG’s new 4K TVs will have that webOS platform, which includes a built-in 4K HEVC 60p decoder. That will allow each TV to decode H.264 and HEVC H.265 formats, in 30p or 60p".

http://www.cepro.com/article/lg_adds..._streaming/K15

Samsung and Sony will follow a similar path: "A partnership with the likes of Amazon, Comcast and DirectTV along with M-Go and Netflix will see Samsung offering up more content through its Smart TV hub using each company's respective app."

http://www.techradar.com/us/news/tel...ership-1212696

For UHD downloads, ala Sony, a multi terabyte server would be a requirement. If Ultraviolet UHD is made available, there would be less of a demand for downloads. Just purchase your 4K movie, store in the cloud and stream whenever.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Netflix UHD will stream directly to the TV, no other hardware is required.

"And it looks like it [Netflix] will be streaming to LG Ultra HD TVs - at least to start. All 12 of LG’s new 4K TVs will have that webOS platform, which includes a built-in 4K HEVC 60p decoder. That will allow each TV to decode H.264 and HEVC H.265 formats, in 30p or 60p".

http://www.cepro.com/article/lg_adds..._streaming/K15

Samsung and Sony will follow a similar path: "A partnership with the likes of Amazon, Comcast and DirectTV along with M-Go and Netflix will see Samsung offering up more content through its Smart TV hub using each company's respective app."

http://www.techradar.com/us/news/tel...ership-1212696

For UHD downloads, ala Sony, a multi terabyte server would be a requirement. If Ultraviolet UHD is made available, there would be less of a demand for downloads. Just purchase your 4K movie, store in the cloud and stream whenever.

But that's still dependant on the wifi working that particular night. Downloads give more peace of mind. Movie night is screwed if the connection is screwed. At least with downloads you can plan ahead. Ahhhh, thank goodness for bluray.