HDTVTEST (Vincent Teoh) Discussion Thread

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Derb

It’s ones man’s opinion.

In case you missed the video, Disney + offers you the choice of which aspect ratio you prefer. + Vincent didn’t just start & stop there. He also informed people that watching the IMAX versions over the alternative resulted in a higher HDR peak brightness in side by side comparisons.

Now you have to fill in the gaps to extend your video long enough to get “monetized” which clearly Vincent did by throwing in some “fluff” opinions on the state of UHD vs Stream.

No, it was not higher PEAK brightness, it was higher APL, which is the average brightness of the image. While I definitely think most people I see on boards prefer an overall brighter image from HDR, that typically means you are seeing LESS overall dynamic range, which seems to be where HDR in general is going with all their "tweaks" lately to cater to the masses. We saw the same thing with high dynamic range music as well. The brightness wars are gearing up just like before and pretty soon all that lovely dynamic range HDR offers will be a thing of the past and people will just be watching a lot of bright content like they were before.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Pagey123

Thanks for that YouTube link! I thoroughly enjoyed that, especially the early history lessons on the advent of computer graphics. Grew up with computers and been in IT for 21 years and had never heard much of that lineage.

The LA chapter is a good group, b.t.w., there is a multi-part series on Youtube for how to learn SQL using Squid Game -
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...mBQJIRjvWqPcqa

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Give who a break? The bot?

don’t bots have feelings too? -

Too Many Robot Tests? - GEICO Insurance - YouTube

[wxman2003]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTEb...ature=youtu.be

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by wxman2003

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTEb...ature=youtu.be

It's interesting that Vincent supports Panasonic's way of doing Dynamic Tone Mapping but not LG's. Again, I understand LG's goes too far at times with it's DTM but when comparing between Dolby Vision and DTM bring "On," there are subtle differences between the two.

In my opinion, I think HDR10 needs some type of dynamic tone mapping done to it to be viewable on an OLED. Now on an LED/LCD, that may not be the case.

[manwithnoname64]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

It's interesting that Vincent supports Panasonic's way of doing Dynamic Tone Mapping but not LG's. Again, I understand LG's goes too far at times with it's DTM but when comparing between Dolby Vision and DTM bring "On," there are subtle differences between the two.

In my opinion, I think HDR10 needs some type of dynamic tone mapping done to it to be viewable on an OLED. Now on an LED/LCD, that may not be the case.

He’s far from the only one to criticize LG’s tone mapping compared to Sony and Panasonic.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by manwithnoname64

He’s far from the only one to criticize LG’s tone mapping compared to Sony and Panasonic.

Oh I’m sure. I just don’t understand the hate. LG TV Owners, like myself, have no choice. We either have to leave HDR10 alone, or be “inaccurate” according to many people.

For me, I don’t see too much of the inaccuracies or I’m not as OCD as others. I’ve compared multiple movies in HDR10 vs Dolby Vision and the pros of using DTM outweigh the cons. I fully enjoy watching movies that look almost as good as Dolby Vision. My set is calibrated of course so I’m sure uncalibrated TVs will look different.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

It's interesting that Vincent supports Panasonic's way of doing Dynamic Tone Mapping but not LG's. Again, I understand LG's goes too far at times with it's DTM but when comparing between Dolby Vision and DTM bring "On," there are subtle differences between the two.

In my opinion, I think HDR10 needs some type of dynamic tone mapping done to it to be viewable on an OLED. Now on an LED/LCD, that may not be the case.

It's not like every manufacturer's in-house mapping is going to be the same, they'll do things differently and if Vincent likes what he sees from others then that's his choice to make. I think the likes of Sony and Pannysonic prefer to maintain APL and let the highlights roll off whereas LG's seem to prefer bring down the brightness of the whole image while retaining highlights, thus reducing the "pop" (ugh) that Vincent loves so much. (Also one of the reasons why we still get complaints of some HDR movies "looking too dark", that the tone mapping is prioritising the preservation of the upper end of the signal at the expense of average brightness. Sony have even got two different mapping modes on newer sets, Brightness Preferred and Gradation Preferred, I'd like to get a look at these one day.)

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It's not like every manufacturer's in-house mapping is going to be the same, they'll do things differently and if Vincent likes what he sees from others then that's his choice to make. I think the likes of Sony and Pannysonic prefer to maintain APL and let the highlights roll off whereas LG's seem to prefer bring down the brightness of the whole image while retaining highlights, thus reducing the "pop" (ugh) that Vincent loves so much. (Also one of the reasons why we still get complaints of some HDR movies "looking too dark", that the tone mapping is prioritising the preservation of the upper end of the signal at the expense of average brightness. Sony have even got two different mapping modes on newer sets, Brightness Preferred and Gradation Preferred, I'd like to get a look at these one day.)

That’s true. I mean he can like whatever DTM he wants. It just disappoints me that he goes and says “Turn it off” instead of saying “It works but it may have some inaccuracies.” Thus, people then go around and say it’s terrible, it’s not right, etc. In reality, it’s not as inaccurate as it would seem.

From my experiences with LG’s DTM, it will either brighten or darken areas of the picture to preserve the highlights and or giving them an extra boost. To me, without DTM, you will get the dimness or the highlights get blown out. Yes, one could use the Panny HDR Optimizer, but that alone is not enough to produce an image like Dolby Vision.

The point is, LG’s DTM is not as bad as Vincent claims. I know he has done a video over Disney + Dolby Vision vs regular HDR10 but I would love to see the same thing but with DTM on as well. That would give a bit more insight. Because the whole “pausing it” doesn’t really show what it truly does.

[dcx4610]

Anyone happen to know on Samsung's Q LED series what the no sharpness setting is? The default value in the middle is 10 and it goes down to 0 or up to 20.

Is 10 in the middle already increased sharpness or decreasing it to zero the proper no artificial sharpness setting?

[Derb]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

That’s true. I mean he can like whatever DTM he wants. It just disappoints me that he goes and says “Turn it off” instead of saying “It works but it may have some inaccuracies.” Thus, people then go around and say it’s terrible, it’s not right, etc. In reality, it’s not as inaccurate as it would seem.

From my experiences with LG’s DTM, it will either brighten or darken areas of the picture to preserve the highlights and or giving them an extra boost. To me, without DTM, you will get the dimness or the highlights get blown out. Yes, one could use the Panny HDR Optimizer, but that alone is not enough to produce an image like Dolby Vision.

The point is, LG’s DTM is not as bad as Vincent claims. I know he has done a video over Disney + Dolby Vision vs regular HDR10 but I would love to see the same thing but with DTM on as well. That would give a bit more insight. Because the whole “pausing it” doesn’t really show what it truly does.

Hmm..

I haven’t messed around too much with HDR10 & DTM on LG. I tried it on Life of Pi in a dark room. I found the film to be bright in general & didn’t see the need to increase the brightness with DTM after switching it on for a few scenes.

I’d have to watch DTM in Dark scenes before passing judgement though.

[Derb]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

No, it was not higher PEAK brightness, it was higher APL, which is the average brightness of the image. While I definitely think most people I see on boards prefer an overall brighter image from HDR, that typically means you are seeing LESS overall dynamic range, which seems to be where HDR in general is going with all their "tweaks" lately to cater to the masses. We saw the same thing with high dynamic range music as well. The brightness wars are gearing up just like before and pretty soon all that lovely dynamic range HDR offers will be a thing of the past and people will just be watching a lot of bright content like they were before.

Thanks for clarifying.

Brightness Wars are indeed a thing. Samsung ain’t budging.
They are actively promoting HDR10 +

Watched a “Promo” upload from them recently.

Competition can’t be bad right?

[wxman2003]

LG promising 30% brighter OLED panels in 2022.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc...h=44dfb15649dd

[Vriess]

I'm a little confused as to the actual benefits of these brighter OLED's. When the Evo panels were announced and promised 20 percent more brightness I thought the difference would be huge in perceived contrast and "pop" or depth. Yet Vincent and other things I have heard about these tv's seem to mention the largest gains being in HDR brightness. Am I missing something? Maybe it's color saturation that also contributes to that? Or are these gains in brightness just not enough to really increase the perceived depth of the image?

I'm interested in these new brighter OLED but if they are not changing that sense of depth much it's not that important to me

[wxman2003]

Originally Posted by Vriess

I'm a little confused as to the actual benefits of these brighter OLED's. When the Evo panels were announced and promised 20 percent more brightness I thought the difference would be huge in perceived contrast and "pop" or depth. Yet Vincent and other things I have heard about these tv's seem to mention the largest gains being in HDR brightness. Am I missing something? Maybe it's color saturation that also contributes to that? Or are these gains in brightness just not enough to really increase the perceived depth of the image?

I'm interested in these new brighter OLED but if they are not changing that sense of depth much it's not that important to me

A big benefit of higher panel brightness is less aggressive ABL, which is one of the main complaints with OLED. Many would not notice much difference between specular highlights of 750 nits vs 900nits, but one would notice a difference of 130 nit full screen brightness and say 250 or 300 nits full screen brightness. I'm not saying that is what will occur with the 2022 panels, but gradually increasing peak full panel brightness is a plus.

[Derb]

OLED killer is ASBL. (TPC)

Until that is addressed who cares how bright LG’s claims are?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

In my opinion, I think HDR10 needs some type of dynamic tone mapping done to it to be viewable on an OLED...

It's already here... It's called HDR10+

[wxman2003]

Originally Posted by Derb

OLED killer is ASBL. (TPC)

Until that is addressed who cares how bright LG’s claims are?

Can easily be turned off in the SM with LG OLED's. Have had mine turned off in my E6 since 2016 with no ill effect.

[Derb]

Originally Posted by wxman2003

Can easily be turned off in the SM with LG OLED's. Have had mine turned off in my E6 since 2016 with no ill effect.

Yep

It is very simple to turn off/on with the SR.

How many OLED owners here actually do it? Probably just a handful of people since nobody dares mention it in reviews year after year. Retailers go into hiding at the topic & Tech YouTubers have no clue. Maybe scared of Warranty claims I guess since any SR is logged into the Menu with its serial #

[Geoff D]

It really is OLED’s dirty little secret, isn’t it? Well, that and near black overshoot.