Blu-ray 4K Under Consideration by BDA

[ronjones]

After nearly a year and a half of spectulation about the potential for a future version of blu-ray that could support native 4K Ultra High Definition recordings, there is now word of activity within the BDA. As background, I'm not talking about 1080p blu-ray discs sourced from 4K movies nor players that simply upscale 1080p discs to a 4K 24Hz output. Rather I talking about discs recorded at the full native 4K resolution and players that can play these discs and output the 4K video to displays with native 4K Ultra High Definition resolution (approx. 8 Mpixels).

Andy Parsons, the president of the BDA, is quoted as saying at CES 2013 (Jan. 2013):

“We created a task force three months ago to study the prospects of adding new technologies to the format,”……“We will evaluate three criteria, starting with the technical feasibility of doing 4K, which is four times the picture quality of 1080p.”

The standards for two of the enabling technologies should be in place in time to support any decision on the part of the BDA to proceed with the development of a next generation Blu-ray standard that includes support for a full resolution 4K Ultra High Definition format.

h.265 HEVC Codec - The first edition of the h.265 standard was recently approved and this defines the basic High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC) codec for 2D video including support for 4K. However, a lot are desired features are still missing in the h.265 standard such as the extensions for 3D 4K video, higher frame rates, increased bit depth and higher fidelity chroma formats (e.g., 4:2:2 and 4:4:4). This recently released standard includes the "hooks" to add these extensions later and it is my guess that it will probably take least until late this year before these extensions are added to the h.265 standard. HEVC is claimed to offer approx. twice the compression efficiency of the AVC codec that is defined by h.264 and the HD version of which as used with the current Blu-ray standard.

HDMI - The next generation HDMI standard (prehaps called ver. 2.0) has been under development for just over a year by the HDMI Forum's technical working group. The lastest schedule is for it to be completed and approved by mid-2013. While the specific features to be included in the new HDMI standard have not been make publicly available, statements make by officials with the HDMI organization last year indicate that the tasking to the working group has included adding support for 4K video with higher frames rates, such as 60 Hz, and support for deep color (e.g., 12-bit color depth). There will probably be support for additional audio formats and other technical improvements.

I suspect that if the BDA decides to move ahead with the development of a next generation Blu-ray standard that includes support for 4K Ultra HD video, we are probably looking at sometime in 2014 for that standard to be finalized. Hopefully we will hear something out of the BDA within a few months as to a decision to move forward. Of course such a major update to the Blu-ray standand might also address technology improvements in support of 1080p, such as the use of the HEVC codec, higher frame rates, increased bit depth and improved chroma coding.

[saprano]

PS4 is going to kick things off this year.

I feel sorry for Red Ray.

[keb33509]

Originally Posted by saprano

PS4 is going to kick things off this year.

I feel sorry for Red Ray.

Red Ray is digital, not disc based. It is also aimed at being used for theatrical presentations, not just consumer use. It will do just fine for what it is.

[ronjones]

I believe that 4K media players, such as the Redray and the upcoming Sony 4K player (standalone and perhaps also PS4 based), have a valid place in the equipment rack of home theater owners that have a 4K display. However, I do believe there will continue to be a market physical media and that's where a 4K version of Blu-ray comes in. There are still many in the USA that do not have access to the internet at more than 1 to 2 Mbps and downloading or streaming 4K is not really very practical at such low data rates. Also even with higher speed internet services, there may be monthly data limits and 4K video could eat that up very quickly. Finally many of us like to have their own library of their favorite movies and a 4K version of Blu-ray could satisfy that need moving forward.

Of course the need for 4K sources is really looking into the future for all except the few hundred that already own the Sony VPL-VW1000es projector or owners of one of the very few 4K flat panel LCD/LED displays that have already made its way into the hands of a consumer. All of these 4K displays can only be afforded by those with a lot of $$$ to spend (all of these 4K display options currently cost $20K+). The economic aspects of 4K displays/projectors will be changing over time and perhaps in a couple of years they will become more affordable, maybe costing not much more than today's top-of-the-line 1080p displays.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by keb33509

Red Ray is digital, not disc based. It is also aimed at being used for theatrical presentations, not just consumer use. It will do just fine for what it is.

Yes i know. But Red is always taking shots at sony and their idea of 4K. Once sony gets the ball rolling on 4K the market will only know their version, not Red's. As you said, it will do fine for what it is. In their tiny market. Sony has both downloads and, eventually, 4KBD.

So like i said, PS4 should start this fire nicely. If it's not disc based then i'm sure sony will have a 4K media section on the Playstion store. And just like that, millions have access to 4K content. Red Ray players will still be struggling to break 500K.

[COLD_COBRA_]

I hear that 720p plasmas will still look better than 4k lcds. Is this true?

[img eL]

Originally Posted by COLD_COBRA_

I hear that 720p plasmas will still look better than 4k lcds. Is this true?

Uh? Nope, a 4K plasma on the other hand. Deep inky blacks where plasma's advantage over LCD's. LCD's blacks have very much improved to Plasma, I'm not sure if there will be 4K plasmas in production, it will be interesting to see

[kristoffer]

I also hope they include a greater color gamut if a new version BD is coming.

[Petyr_Baelish]

I can't imagine my movies looking any better on a 55" screen. And no I never thought that about DVD.

[Canada]

Originally Posted by Petyr_Baelish

I can't imagine my movies looking any better on a 55" screen. And no I never thought that about DVD.

Most 4K TV's are 70, 80 inches or larger.

[MrHT]

Originally Posted by Canada

Most 4K TV's are 70, 80 inches or larger.

So I assume that everyone will be buying 70"+ TVs now.....

[Canada]

Originally Posted by MrHT

So I assume that everyone will be buying 70"+ TVs now.....

Anything is possible I doubt my parents thought there son would on a 55" tv, the first tv they owned as a couple was 19".

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Canada

Anything is possible I doubt my parents thought there son would on a 55" tv, the first tv they owned as a couple was 19".

yeah, I remember when all we had growing up was a B&W TV that was probably19", now I have a 120" screen in my HT and two monitors on my computer larger than that. the average TV size in homes has kept on growing since the day they were invented (started out at 9"-10")

[img eL]

Originally Posted by MrHT

So I assume that everyone will be buying 70"+ TVs now.....

That or 32", 37", 55", 65", 84", 110", etc.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by MrHT

So I assume that everyone will be buying 70"+ TVs now.....

No, it's not a everyone or no-one situation. If it were do you think we'd see ANY vinyl music releases given that vinyl represents only 1~2% of the market?

As long as a format remains viable (ie - DVD still sees 50% market share often) it's not going anywhere. This disc size is pretty standard, I can't see players 30 years from now not supporting CD's, DVD's, Blu-ray's, 3D-BD, 4K-BD, etc.

They want you to be able to play formats that everyone supported. If DVD-Audio or SACD had been universally supported from the start it's likely we'd still see most players supporting one of those as we'd likely still see titles being released by major labels.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

No, it's not a everyone or no-one situation. If it were do you think we'd see ANY vinyl music releases given that vinyl represents only 1~2% of the market?

As long as a format remains viable (ie - DVD still sees 50% market share often) it's not going anywhere. This disc size is pretty standard, I can't see players 30 years from now not supporting CD's, DVD's, Blu-ray's, 3D-BD, 4K-BD, etc.

They want you to be able to play formats that everyone supported. If DVD-Audio or SACD had been universally supported from the start it's likely we'd still see most players supporting one of those as we'd likely still see titles being released by major labels.

30 years, really? You still think we will all have access to our bluray films? Even tv's wont be around then with the obsession with stupid smartphones and watching streaming media on tablets. There is not much profit left in tv sets is there?

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I can't see players 30 years from now not supporting CD's, DVD's, Blu-ray's, 3D-BD, 4K-BD, etc.

I think that's pretty naive. Let's take 30 years back: 1983. That's one year before the Macintosh was released and two years before the first CD-ROM. Most PCs still used 5 1/4" drives. Some used the "stiff" 3.5" drives. About the largest hard disk a typical computer would have was 20MB.

When was the last time you saw a computer that could play a 3.5" or 5.25" floppy drive? When CD-ROMs started to be released in 1985 and 1986, they used proprietary methods to access the disc until Microsoft released Microsoft DOS Extensions. But Microsoft DOS Extensions won't run on any modern PC, not even in DOS mode, which means you can't run any of the retrieval software stored on those CD-ROMs and you can't access any of the data.

I think it's highly unlikely that there will be any disc formats around in 30 years because by that time, memory will actually cost less than a pressed piece of plastic. It's already remarkably inexpensive.

So if you can manage to keep a BD drive running, sure, you'll still be able to play today's BDs 30 years from now. But considering the poor quality of most players, that's doubtful because it's unlikely that the laser will still work 30 years from now. That's one of the prices we pay for demanding unrealistically cheap electronics that are manufactured in China.

And considering how fast technology changes, I'd say a TV 30 years from now will not have the HDMI connection that we have today. In fact, they'll probably be no wired connection at all because everything will be wireless.