HDR Discussion Thread

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

DanBa, any news on how it went with that HDR Carmen opera broadcast from France which you previously linked - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...g#post13793586

No report (yet?) as far as I know. It seems that everyone has gone on vacation.


There is also no "technical" report on a more recent live broadcast in Dolby Vision.

"RTVE has become the first national channel in Spain to complete a live broadcast in Dolby Audio and Dolby Vision. On July 5th, the historic Solemn Changing of the Guard ceremony was broadcast live in Dolby Vision High Dynamic Range (HDR) technology and Dolby AC-4 sound, using the 4K DVB-T2 trial channel that is operated by RTVE and Cellnexx Telecom. This transmission was available on terrestrial channels in Madrid (channel 32), Barcelona (channel 43) and Seville (channel 36), and viewers with a 4K HDR TV could receive the transmission.

Technical partner Ateme provided encoders to help generate the video and audio streams including the dynamic metadata provided by Dolby`s equipment to deliver Dolby Vision HDR."
http://advanced-television.com/2017/...-dolby-vision/
http://www.panoramaaudiovisual.com/f...hdr-de-espana/



"Building on industry standard SMPTE ST 2084 (PQ) and the BT.2020 color space, the addition of Dolby Vision’s ST 2094 dynamic metadata produces the industry’s ultimate HDR format. Encoded by [Ateme's] TITAN in HEVC Main 10, the full Dolby Vision signal is compressed for distribution as a single layer non-backwards compatible stream, or a dual layer stream for uncompromised backward compatibility supporting today’s standard rec.709 TVs as well as the latest Dolby Vision and HDR-10 TVs."
https://www.ateme.com/presse-release...h_Dolby_Vision

As Ateme provided encoders, the Dolby Vision involved should be ST 2094-10 Dolby Vision.

By the way, ST 2094-10 Dolby Vision is at the ATSC 3.0 candidate standard level.
https://www.atsc.org/standards/candidate-standards/
https://www.atsc.org/wp-content/uplo...nt-2094-10.pdf

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

That last paragraph there seems to be doing the whole "HDR 10 can't change brightness" thing that confused so many for so long. He's actually talking about the nits cap, 1,000 or 4,000 and whatnot, but the way it's written confuses people into thinking HDR 10 has a static brightness level the whole movie. Not even normal BD has that.

So again we go down the road of my set showing clear definitions up to 6,000 nits and just how big a difference would dynamic metadata be and blah blah blah.

Exactly right. HDR10 DOES change brightness from scene to scene but because those are absolute values the key difference is how the TV is able to interpret those changes, whereas with old 100-nit SDR we never had to worry about the TV not being able to cope with that amount of dynamic range. It's the HDR display processing that's unintelligent, not the grading itself. With the tone mapping set to compress the whole brightness range of what's in the container (1000/4000) then the APL is brought down considerably, not harming brighter scenes but potentially very damaging to lower light content. Or you can hard clip the content to x nits, which will preserve the correct APL in the lower registers but shed a lot of highlight detail in the brightest points. The third option is a mix of both, letting the content play out naturally until it gets close to the peak limits of the TV after which point the mapping takes over to preserve highlights.

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post54165089



An interesting comment on HDR10+. So it seems that dynamic metadata can improve the picture on a high nit display. Geoff D, the definitive word rests on your observations once your Sony gets DV .

Can't say I've heard of him but I'm sure he'd say the same about me. It's kinda like asking a random Brit if they know the Queen: we don't all know each other.

As for his wider point about comparing static to a frame/edge-lit LCD and dynamic to OLED, he neglects the intermediate option: FALD LCD and the kind of HDR processing that's ALREADY dynamically 'active' like on the Sony ZD9, which just ignores the static data and interprets the content itself to best map it to the display.

[Penton-Man]

Geoff's in fine form.
Where's Richard Paul?....vacation?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

There is also no "technical" report on a more recent live broadcast in Dolby Vision.

"RTVE has become the first national channel in Spain to complete a live broadcast in Dolby Audio and Dolby Vision. On July 5th...

I heard about it . A Grass Valley friend told me they provided 6 cameras….4 for the live transmission and 2 for the recording….that’s all I know. Love dem animals in the picture though. Beautiful horses.

As more Dolby Vision (ST 2094-10 -> https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...4#post12007747
) live broadcasts take place it should be interesting to learn of the ambient lighting of the differing viewing environments by observers fortunate enough to have an opportunity to experience these events and how they feel such environments affect the image quality as compared to live HLG projects.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

dem animals in the picture though.

Reminds me, just this past week follow-up analysis of an HLG clip (thumbnail first pictured here -> https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post13271102 )

submitted to a standards working group shows nits and gamut coverage as follows:





Point being, yes, there are specific tools available to precisely identify dynamic range and gamut coverage….and people who volunteer their time to contribute to such working groups, despite such volunteerism being taxing at times, given day jobs and such, approach these investigations/projects with thee utmost professionalism.

[Penton-Man]

Sony just contributed 5 new HLG test sequences (shot on a F65, 59.94 progressive, RGB RAW (signal format) for future video coding standardization. Thumbnails to give folks an idea as to the variety of the content:

[eddievanhalen]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I heard about it . A Grass Valley friend told me they provided 6 cameras….4 for the live transmission and 2 for the recording….that’s all I know. Love dem animals in the picture though. Beautiful horses.

As more Dolby Vision (ST 2094-10 -> https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...4#post12007747
) live broadcasts take place it should be interesting to learn of the ambient lighting of the differing viewing environments by observers fortunate enough to have an opportunity to experience these events and how they feel such environments affect the image quality as compared to live HLG projects.

I live in Spain and I'm Spanish and I know nothing about this. I don't know what the hell can Televisión Española doing with 4K equipment. Spanish camera operators and video editors don't know how to get the most out of HD equipment here yet and there and RTVE is buying 4K equipment. This country is a hell of a joke, average wage is 850€, taxes have never been higher, the system is corrupt, not only the current goverment, the other parties as well but they apend and steel public money as if it was grown on trees.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

I live in Spain and I'm Spanish and I know nothing about this.....

So, as a local, you were given no heads-up? to the event on the channels listed in DanBa’s link - http://www.panoramaaudiovisual.com/f...hdr-de-espana/ . That’s pretty pathetic.

I’ll be speaking again with my Grass Valley friend probably next week and I’ll see if he has any other internet link to offer for further insight as to their experiment.

[HeatEquation]

For what it's worth, to anyone with a 2016 Samsung TV - someone over at AVS Forum with sources at Samsung (who has been right in the past) says that the 2016 TVs received the HDR10+ update in the last firmware. Now we're just waiting on HDR10+ content, which apparently Amazon will be releasing by the end of August.

[Geoff D]

That's the thing: I see a few people pining badly for the HDR10+ update but it's not like it's going to make any difference on UHD Blu until the format gets amended AND the various authoring packages are updated, and even then it'll likely be an optional HDR format rather than mandatory which will always remain static HDR10. (Yes, I know it's basically just another packet of metadata atop HDR10 but the point is that not all studios are going to adopt that just because, particularly the ones who are using DV as a dynamic system anyway.)

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That's the thing: I see a few people pining badly for the HDR10+ update but it's not like it's going to make any difference on UHD Blu until the format gets amended AND the various authoring packages are updated, and even then it'll likely be an optional HDR format rather than mandatory which will always remain static HDR10. (Yes, I know it's basically just another packet of metadata atop HDR10 but the point is that not all studios are going to adopt that just because, particularly the ones who are using DV as a dynamic system anyway.)

Yeah, it likely won't be on discs until late 2018 or 2019.

I'm not really pining for it, as I don't expect it to be a big upgrade. But just letting everyone know that we could see the first content by the end of August.

[Penton-Man]

Heat's back
One moment......

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Follow-up to exclusive early May (05-05-2017) posting -> https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...i#post13563059

Samsung folks now trying diligently to make happen a Q4 2017 installation of their cinema display based on that technology. We’ll see if they’re successful.

And I’m not necessarily talking Samsung here, but on a more futuristic note, large direct view displays with even a finer pixel pitch of .8mm as compared to - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post13457032 are in the works.

Anyway, high nit, fine pixel pitch direct LED Cinema would make this less of a dilemma.

Pertaining specifically to the 2nd paragraph above ^

Not only successful, but they beat !! the target date…..
https://news.samsung.com/global/sams...ma-led-display

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Pertaining specifically to the 2nd paragraph above ^

Not only successful, but they beat !! the target date…..
https://news.samsung.com/global/sams...ma-led-display

High nit HDR LED displays in theaters sounds intriguing. Wonder when we'll be seeing this in North America.

[HeatEquation]

By the way, Google Play Movies now supports HDR.

[Geoff D]

Holy shit, them screens are 500 nits? That's damned impressive for such a huge display.

[Penton-Man]

Yup, don’t have to worry about exit lights being on and such for fire safety.
Gotta run to beat the traffic to a local freebie event.
Later.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

By the way, Google Play Movies now supports HDR.

....only in American and Canada.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I’ll be speaking again with my Grass Valley friend probably next week....

I unexpectedly bumped into him last night at an industry event and he passed this along to me just now by email (he speaks fluent Spanish).....http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/...4688b458e.html

haven't had time to google translate and read it.
Off to Disneyland.

[eddievanhalen]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I unexpectedly bumped into him last night at an industry event and he passed this along to me just now by email (he speaks fluent Spanish).....http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/...4688b458e.html

haven't had time to google translate and read it.
Off to Disneyland.

I've read the article, remember that I'm Spanish and I live in Spain.
The whole thing seems to be run by Spanish technicians and operators so please let me be exceptical about the picture quality got by them. There's just one thing that's telling me they're doing something "not right". They take the 12 Gigabites feeds from each camera and inmediately compress them to around 30 mgabits/secong, the haven't named the codec used but one can assume it was HEVC, but even with HEVC 30 mgabits/second I think is little bandwith for 12 bit UHD video which has to be compressed on real time as opposed as the several passes no-real time compression used on UHD BD, and let's also keep motion in mind.
Quality may have the "wow factor" as every newly introduced technology but believe me, Spanish are not good, to say it softly, at the technical side of audio, video and film production.