HDR Discussion Thread

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Which kinks? HDR10 is a subset of Dolby Vision. Only thing it is missing is a standardized way of tone / gamut mapping and per frame dynamic metadata. HDR10+ is not frame aligned.

I would also not blame Samsung issues on HDR10.

HDR10/DV is superior to HLG for HDR and existing SDR is superior to HLG for SDR. Basically HLG HDR is not as good as PQ based HDR and its SDR is not as good as regular SDR.

Since HLG is a relative system, it may work better in bright environments where an absolute system really requires a light controlled room to best results. This is just my opinion though.

I will actually watch the SDR version of a show if I am in a bright room. Some of my friends think I am crazy for this. They try and watch HDR10 in a bright room and then complain about it.

I was referring to Google's kinks with the format. There's clearly something wrong with the way it is sending the HDR and/or WCG signal to some TVs. Literally no other device has this issue.

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Which kinks? HDR10 is a subset of Dolby Vision. Only thing it is missing is a standardized way of tone / gamut mapping and per frame dynamic metadata. HDR10+ is not frame aligned.

Stacey what do you think of Sony's implementation of HDR10 coming up with an alternative to DV?

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

As I am more familiar with how Sony's active HDR10 operates I'll keep my comments to Sony's 2017 X1 Extreme models. You might notice very little difference between Dolby Vision and HDR10 on Sony's X1E equipped TVs. Sony HDR TVs don’t use the static brightness metadata in HDR10 (MaxCLL, MaxFALL) they actually measured brightness frame by frame and generate dynamic metadata for HDR10 content.

...This HDR anomaly is most noticeable when the content is mastered at 4k nits. In Sony's new 2017 X1 Extreme processor TVs the HDR algorithms are tuned to apply tone mapping (which reduces screen brightness and accuracy) when the brightness of the frame exceeds the TV set’s capabilities. It is then applied to ensure HDR highlights are properly displayed.

[Penton-Man]

from

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Pixelogic

to Disney, just recently….
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathon-lee-b312466/

P.S.
after reading the full bio, for those hobbyists unfamiliar with IMF, it can/is be used by studios as one of their archives for high quality home video masters as well as the delivery format to OTT services….http://www.imfforum.com/IMF_Forum/index.html

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

HDR10/DV is superior to HLG for HDR and existing SDR is superior to HLG for SDR. Basically HLG HDR is not as good as PQ based HDR and its SDR is not as good as regular SDR.

It has its advantages for some user groups, e.g.
https://www.pro.sony.eu/pro/lang/en/...AM_240717_Sony

[Cgking114]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

It seems to be triggering HDR10, as the TV's settings automatically adjust for HDR. The image looks very detailed, and there doesn't seem to be an issue with the dynamic range - it's only the colors that look off.

Maybe the Chromecast Ultra is just sending the wrong color space?

I can confirms that it is sending YCbCr 4:2:0 instead of BT2020 to Samsung KS8000.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Cgking114

I can confirms that it is sending YCbCr 4:2:0 instead of BT2020 to Samsung KS8000.

4:2:0 represents the chroma subsampling, BT2020 is the color space. So they aren't mutually exclusive.

4K blu ray discs send 4:2:0 and BT2020 to the TV.

[Penton-Man]

On the topic of judder and HDR, first brought to folks attention back in May 2015 -

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

increased visibility of image artifacts such as judder, which HDR can be more prone to reveal....

A follow-up with regards to a solution, as newly illustrated on a vimeo clip….https://vimeo.com/228442493#t=3m8s

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

On the topic of judder and HDR, first brought to folks attention back in May 2015 -



A follow-up with regards to a solution, as newly illustrated on a vimeo clip….https://vimeo.com/228442493#t=3m8s

Amazing what you can do now with computer software. I remember when the main video software was on the Amiga - the Newtek Video Toaster and Lightwave 3D.

Amiga Video Toaster 2.0 Demo from Newtek - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

On the topic of judder and HDR, first brought to folks attention back in May 2015 -

is not exclusive to footage shot of a couple dancing inside an airplane hanger -
https://vimeo.com/228442493#t=3m8s

but has been a real problem for other high contrast imagery as well, e.g. Eldorado ….
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post11024431

[Geoff D]

Judder is definitely more pronounced in HDR, but you just kinda tune it out after a while.

[Penton-Man]

I think that depends on the individual, but I see your point, e.g. most consumers who have their TVs calibrated by the best calibrator they can find, with time, even their TVs will drift and they tune out that deterioration in image quality rather than getting a tune up (re-calibration) to restore the quality...like post facilities purposefully do on a regular basis.

[Penton-Man]

Food for thought –

A lot is made of filmmaker intent to home deliverables, when the reality is, due to the smallish size of the BVM-X300 and/or Pusar positioned smack in front of the colorist and seating arrangements for others involved, the filmmaker(s) actually prefer viewing a larger client monitor during the session and approval process….. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOmgCu5f_FA#t=2m33s

So, as old sets are replaced with new this year and next, what will become the most popular client display(s) and thusly be the filmmaker’s de facto reference monitor they are using for their assessment/approval of the imagery for Ultra HD Blu-rays and such?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

"This is what the HDR video standards field will look like once Apple officially announces support for HDR10, Dolby Vision and HLG."
https://twitter.com/DanielBa78/statu...99365475512320

[SPOILER]

Dan, the support police pic seems to me to be rather pro-Apple and dismissive of Samsung TVs capabilities actually now on the market.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Food for thought –

A lot is made of filmmaker intent to home deliverables, when the reality is, due to the smallish size of the BVM-X300 and/or Pusar positioned smack in front of the colorist and seating arrangements for others involved, the filmmaker(s) actually prefer viewing a larger client monitor during the session and approval process….. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOmgCu5f_FA#t=2m33s

So, as old sets are replaced with new this year and next, what will become the most popular client display(s) and thusly be the filmmaker’s de facto reference monitor they are using for their assessment/approval of the imagery for Ultra HD Blu-rays and such?

I'll be very surprised if it's anything other than an OLED.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by DanBa

How a standardized Dolby Vision tone / gamut mapping can be specified?
Are there a Dolby Vision dynamic metadata specification and a Dolby Vision tone / gamut mapping specification (or a Dolby Vision (reference) source implementation)?

Yes there is and if you are a DV licensee you get access to it. All DV devices employ the same tone / gamut mapping via the DM processor.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by DanBa

"This is what the HDR video standards field will look like once Apple officially announces support for HDR10, Dolby Vision and HLG."
https://twitter.com/DanielBa78/statu...99365475512320

Hi Dan,

The Oppo players handle HLG since the hdmi 2.0b update. This was confirmed by JohnAV over in the Oppo 203 thread.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Hi Dan,

The Oppo players handle HLG since the hdmi 2.0b update. This was confirmed by JohnAV over in the Oppo 203 thread.

...and because Samsung does too, we'll need a new area added somewhere that represents "HDR10 and HDR10Plus and HLG". Ihe pink circle somehow intercepting with the blue circle, but omitting the turquoise circle.

[DanBa]

Latest Yoeri Geutskens' diagram:
"The previous Venn diagram suggested everyone supports HDR10. That's not quite accurate. I've added BBC and NHK with #HLG here."



I think it should be improved:
1. Samsung is also supporting HLG
2. Oppo is also supporting HLG
3. Google is supporting HDR10, Dolby Vision & HLG
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...0#post12595355
4. Roku is also supporting Dolby Vision
https://blog.roku.com/blog/2017/05/1...er-this-month/

My latest Multi-HDR TV table:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...2#post13707182



BTW, are there some inaccuracies?
Thanks

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Yes there is and if you are a DV licensee you get access to it. All DV devices employ the same tone / gamut mapping via the DM processor.

Thanks!

How about HDR10 PLUS?

Like Dolby Vision, I don’t think the open standard SMPTE ST 2094-40 Dynamic Metadata for Color Volume Transform specification can completely specify the HDR10 PLUS tone / gamut mapping.

Is there an open standard HDR10 PLUS tone / gamut mapping specification (or an open source HDR10 PLUS reference implementation)?

Proprietary HDR10 PLUS tone / gamut mapping specification must exist at least for Samsung developers for implementation on Samsung TV.

[Shalashaska]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Which kinks? HDR10 is a subset of Dolby Vision. Only thing it is missing is a standardized way of tone / gamut mapping and per frame dynamic metadata. HDR10+ is not frame aligned.

I would also not blame Samsung issues on HDR10.

HDR10/DV is superior to HLG for HDR and existing SDR is superior to HLG for SDR. Basically HLG HDR is not as good as PQ based HDR and its SDR is not as good as regular SDR.

Since HLG is a relative system, it may work better in bright environments where an absolute system really requires a light controlled room to best results. This is just my opinion though.

I will actually watch the SDR version of a show if I am in a bright room. Some of my friends think I am crazy for this. They try and watch HDR10 in a bright room and then complain about it.

As someone who doesn't yet own a HDR display, what makes HDR content harder to see in a bright room? I thought it'd be an improvement over SDR.

Also, since you brought it up, what makes HLG different from HDR10/DV when it comes to processing and displaying an image? There must be some compromises as HLG was designed for live broadcasting, but what are they?

I find a lot of the info that's already out there is either much too vague or too technical for moi. I think asking people directly just makes it easier to understand.