HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

I said sports

Despite your public defiance, you can’t fool Steed and me. We know, if you could be there, you’d be seated in the first row with ears perked for the Keynote Conversation at 1:45 p.m. - http://www.thesvgsummit.com/day-2/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...It's a little dated by now, but a decent Cliff Notes for those new to the topic and overwhelmed by the technology.

And something even for our more experienced followers, a concept which occasionally causes some confusion is, by ITU standards, the color volume difference between BT.2020 and BT. 2100 .

But a review of the PowerPoint presentation (https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/...V2-Handout.pdf) offers a slide near the beginning with an easy-to-read table indicating the differentiation.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Because the handling of HDR10 mapping across manufacturers - indeed, across their own ranges - has been a bit of a cluster****, and if HDR10+ is STILL going to be subjected to these same whims then I don't really see the point of it.

It's to provide the capability for dynamic tone-mapping. It doesn't change the part of the system that YOU want to be changed, clearly, or as much as you would like, but that certainly doesn't make it pointless in my opinion.

[EbonDragon]

I’ve seen it said before that Dolby had a hand in HDR10s creation or development. Is this true or a misconception? And if it’s true, is there a source for it?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by EbonDragon

I’ve seen it said before that Dolby had a hand in HDR10s creation or development. Is this true or a misconception? And if it’s true, is there a source for it?

Dolby literally created the Electro Optic Transfer Function (EOTF) that's at the heart of HDR10 and Dolby Vision, do a search for SMPTE ST 2084 and all shall be revealed.

Basically they gave away a free version to get some kind of HDR out there, to get the content providers hooked, and DV is like the super-charged add-on version that you gotta pay for.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Dolby literally created the Electro Optic Transfer Function (EOTF) that's at the heart of HDR10 and Dolby Vision, do a search for SMPTE ST 2084 and all shall be revealed.

Basically they gave away a free version to get some kind of HDR out there, to get the content providers hooked, and DV is like the super-charged add-on version that you gotta pay for.

Correct.
I have time to elaborate.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by EbonDragon

I’ve seen it said before that Dolby had a hand in HDR10s creation or development. Is this true or a misconception? And if it’s true, is there a source for it?

Essentially, HDR10 (which isn’t as bad as some haters make it out to be) is a 10 bit subset of Dolby Vision and among other things uses the color representation model YCbCt rather than ICtCp/YCbCt. Important to note is that HDR10 is based upon exclusive, original R&D (like PQ EOTF ) by Dolby who worked extensively for years throughout the entire industry ecosystem (SMPTE, ITU, MPEG, BDA, etc.) to develop and introduce the DolbyVision solution and thusly enable what arguably could be called Dolby Vision Lite (HDR10). which consumer electronics (CEA) then adopted as one approach to bringing forth high dynamic range.

Some could say that Dolby quite generously shared their years of R&D with the industry-at-large (for if there was no Dolby Vision there would be no HDR10)….others might argue that to get the world to open its minds and eyes to HDR, they had to give away a taste for free; otherwise we would still be languishing in 8bit SDR for who knows how many more years and they would be getting no ROI on all that hard work and expense.

As to documented source for how much of a helping hand Dolby provided in chaperoning in HDR10, might begin by searching Walt Husak’s contributions at MPEG starting from about here in late 2014/early 2015 - https://mpeg.chiariglione.org/standa.../call-evidence and afterwards. Also, I don’t know if there is any info in that slew of wikileak documents dumped online from that Sony hack of years past which was all over the news, but they did contribute, so look for any input in technical committee/task force by David Brooks (a leader in HDR discussion for the UHD BD specification) or Yea or Nay votes by Brian Link to get an idea as to the company’s mindset on the various parameters for HDR.

[Penton-Man]

The relatives arrived safely at the airport and will be here in a few minutes so I’ll be checking out for a couple of days. I wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving and remember, no matter how bad it gets, there is always something to be thankful for.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

[Show spoiler]Essentially, HDR10 (which isn’t as bad as some haters make it out to be) is a 10 bit subset of Dolby Vision and among other things uses the color representation model YCbCt rather than ICtCp/YCbCt. Important to note is that HDR10 is based upon exclusive, original R&D (like PQ EOTF ) by Dolby who worked extensively for years throughout the entire industry ecosystem (SMPTE, ITU, MPEG, BDA, etc.) to develop and introduce the DolbyVision solution and thusly enable what arguably could be called Dolby Vision Lite (HDR10). which consumer electronics (CEA) then adopted as one approach to bringing forth high dynamic range.

Some could say that Dolby quite generously shared their years of R&D with the industry-at-large (for if there was no Dolby Vision there would be no HDR10)….others might argue that to get the world to open its minds and eyes to HDR, they had to give away a taste for free; otherwise we would still be languishing in 8bit SDR for who knows how many more years and they would be getting no ROI on all that hard work and expense.

As to documented source for how much of a helping hand Dolby provided in chaperoning in HDR10, might begin by searching Walt Husak’s contributions at MPEG starting from about here in late 2014/early 2015 - https://mpeg.chiariglione.org/standa.../call-evidence and afterwards. Also, I don’t know if there is any info in that slew of wikileak documents dumped online from that Sony hack of years past which was all over the news, but they did contribute, so look for any input in technical committee/task force by David Brooks (a leader in HDR discussion for the UHD BD specification) or Yea or Nay votes by Brian Link to get an idea as to the company’s mindset on the various parameters for HDR.

Yet SOME forum members here thing Dolby is the devil and magically had nothing to do with HDR10.

[eddievanhalen]

I still don't understand why and how 10 bit digital video and HDR 10 are different things and look different. To my understanding any kind of HDR needs over 8 bit quantization but, what makes the difference between 10 bit plain video and HDR? Is it the use of metadata either dinamic or fixed/static? Is HDR a kind of non-linear 10 bit video that assigns more bits to the part of a video frame that needs the most to be quantized?

[Geoff D]

Different EOTF.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by puddy77

Cinematographer Steve Yedlin just released this very thorough resolution demo between 6 cameras: http://yedlin.net/ResDemo/

The cameras used:

Arri Alexa 65
Arri Alexa XT
Arri 435 using 4perf super35mm scanned at 6k
Sony F55
IMAX MSM3 using 15perf 65mm scanned at 11k
Red Weapon 6k

Part one is the 10 minute demo itself with multiple scenes shot the same way on the different cameras. Part two is an hour long analysis and detail of all the variables that go into perceived spacial detail, besides just resolution....

Little over a week ago, Steve did a DCP theatrical demo hosted by RealD and ASC of his online resolution study ^ and tweeted about it-

https://twitter.com/steveyedlin/stat...91659675070464

^ a twitter bit incomplete because that’s not to say that with some scenes, judicious use of 4K VFX (assets built in 4K, the renders rendered in 4K, and then a final output in 4K) is well worth it, as the higher res does indeed enable viewers to perceive the increased spatial resolution (as compared to 2K upscale), and is not overly difficult to perceive especially when having graded in HDR for Dolby Cinema ….https://vimeo.com/131442291#t=9m23s

[Penton-Man]

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...20post14275840

^ Accounting update –> another couple months....another 100,000 views accumulated for HDR Discussion thread. Now 600,000+
Geoff knocking on Dan's door. Dan knocking on Heat's door.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Blu-rays (as opposed to only the regular old DVD screeners of past years) have gone out so far to various voting groups and since I don’t know where else to post it, here’s the list so far –

Get Out (Blu-ray)
Beauty and the Beast (Blu-ray/DVD)
War of the Planet of the Apes (Blu-ray/DVD combo pack)
Atomic Blonde (Blu-ray)
Split (Blu-ray)
Despicable Me 3 (Blu-ray)
The Lego Batman Movie (Blu-ray)
Wonder Woman (Blu-ray)
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 (Blu-ray)
Cars 3 (Blu-ray)
The Beguiled (Blu-ray)
First They Killed my Father (Blu-ray)
Victoria & Abdul (Blu-ray)
Mudbound (Blu-ray)
Detroit (Blu-ray)
American Made (Blu-ray)

Ironically (how things change), the leader of the pack so far is Universal Pictures.
Of course, thee above studio Blu-ray screener efforts play 2nd fiddle to the bold beachhead established by Warner’s with Dunkirk - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post14202213

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...20post14275840

^ Accounting update –> another couple months....another 100,000 views accumulated for HDR Discussion thread. Now 600,000+
Geoff knocking on Dan's door. Dan knocking on Heat's door.

♫ Knock knock knocking on DanBa's do-ooo-ooor ♫

[Penton-Man]

Geoff, I have a feeling there is an added reason to you being overly stoked this weekend.

[Hardback247]

How would I know if the HDR is working on a UHD Blu-Ray player? Does it depend on the TV setting, or the player setting?

[Penton-Man]

Update on 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray Production
Published in: SMPTE Motion Imaging Journal ( Volume: 126, Issue: 7, Sept. 2017

excerpted from the body of the report - “……two key challenges continue to persist, namely consistency in the depiction of the video signal and future proofing of the mastering and distribution process.” -
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org:80/docume...6/?reload=true

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

large format content....as Penton first alerted us

For those who missed the Cine Gear Expo last June, free registration to the dedicated Venice event ends Nov. 30 -
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/sony-ve...aff=erelexpmlt

Large format, be it whatever the brand –

https://vimeo.com/167052317

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

How would I know if the HDR is working on a UHD Blu-Ray player? Does it depend on the TV setting, or the player setting?

Dan, there’s ^ your opportunity to stay ahead of Geoff. Or Heat, as long as your good twin is in control, like back in the days (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...d#post13669053 ) when you weren’t so mean spirited, you can take that question and show that passionate HDR10+ advocates can also be nice at times to others.

Otherwise, Geoff’s a knockin…..unless a dark horse (https://forum.blu-ray.com/misc.php?d...osted&t=276605) gallops in.