HDR Discussion Thread

[Lee A Stewart]

Conversions Critical for Fox Sports’ Super Bowl LIV Coverage

For starters, as it’s regularly done since taking on 4K, Fox Sports will produce its coverage in 1080p 60 frames per second (fps) HD and up-convert to 4K Ultra-HD 2160p 60fps for 4K viewers, and it will downconvert to 720p for its broadcast audience.

Other important technical conversions include converting High Dynamic Range (HDR) acquired using the Hybrid Log Gamma (HLG) standard to HDR10 for distribution and integrating SMPTE ST2110 with baseband sources converted to IP for production and then converting back to baseband for distribution.

So, Davies is not surprised to hear 4K viewers wonder why Fox Sports does not originate coverage of a marquee event like the Super Bowl in 4K.

“We are always on our heels when we have to explain this,” says Davies. “It’s a natural thing, of course, [to wonder] ‘Why don’t you just do it in 4K?’ Well, there are a couple of reasons.”

One is motion blur. There’s more of it when shooting sports in 4K at 60fps than when the same scene is shot at 1080p, he says. “So, in fact, if we were to do it in 4K, we would actually be delivering an inferior product not only, frankly, to the few people who will be watching in 4K UHD but also to the 100 million people [watching in high definition].”

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/co...l-liv-coverage

[Geoff D]

Does he mean HDR-induced judder is worse or actual motion blur, like the 1080 cameras can use a narrower shutter angle while the 4K ones have to use a wider one to get the same exposure? Interesting. And note that they're still using 4K and 8K cameras as 'super zooms' first and foremost.

[Robert Zohn]

The cameras are native 1080p at 60fps, with HLG capture capability.

[PaulGo]

How is it possible to convert HLG to HDR10 instantly?

[avs commenter]

Is this the first time they have attempted to include HDR10? I thought it was previously just HLG which the Apple TV does not do

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

How is it possible to convert HLG to HDR10 instantly?

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/p..._Licensing.pdf

[Geoff D]

You can do a lot with a LUT

[PaulGo]

I assume there are reasons (limitations) that HLG is not converted to HDR10 in all instances since not all TVs that have HDR10 are not capable of decoding HLG.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

....So, Davies is not surprised to hear 4K viewers wonder why Fox Sports does not originate coverage of a marquee event like the Super Bowl in 4K.

“We are always on our heels when we have to explain this,” says Davies. “It’s a natural thing, of course, [to wonder] ‘Why don’t you just do it in 4K?’ Well, there are a couple of reasons.”

One is motion blur. There’s more of it when shooting sports in 4K at 60fps than when the same scene is shot at 1080p, he says. “So, in fact, if we were to do it in 4K, we would actually be delivering an inferior product not only, frankly, to the few people who will be watching in 4K UHD but also to the 100 million people [watching in high definition].”

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/co...l-liv-coverage

well, we’ve known that here on Blu-ray.com since way back in 2013 –
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...se#post7013442

and with regards to integer factor upscaling, reiterated recently and agreeing with fellow member BrownianMotion - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...g#post16886645

now, for those who may wonder....which parameter (HFR (meaning greater than 60fps) vs. HDR) provides greater picture quality for sports like football, well, that is variable depending upon the venue conditions, but generally industry folks think -
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post13120232

anyway, given my team didn’t make it to the Super Bowl, I have just as much interest in the upcoming movie-related commercials airing in pregame, postgame shows and for that matter during the game itself

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by puddy77

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/p..._Licensing.pdf

Another decent source with regards to broadcast….. https://www.nctatechnicalpapers.com/...yment-with-hlg

P.S.
To cut to the chase, scrawl down to ‘CBS Lab Demonstrations of HDR10 Display Rendering Variation’ and the real-time LUT-based conversion to HDR10

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

I assume there are reasons (limitations) that HLG is not converted to HDR10 in all instances since not all TVs that have HDR10 are not capable of decoding HLG.

Yes, but wasn't one of the main reasons that people b!tched about the previous HDR 'football' broadcasts was that it was in HLG, so most folks couldn't see it in HDR anyway?

For what it's worth, Panasonic have had an 'on the fly' HLG to PQ conversion on their players for a few years already so I'm fairly confident that millions of dollars of broadcast quality tech can manage it.

[Penton-Man]

follow-up to -

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Yeah, I’ll loan you this pole for $1000. , but you can’t borrow nor buy my cap attached to it - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...p#post16844182
As it’s special - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...p#post17175766

However, inspired by NAWDC’s Strike Fighter Tactics Instructional Course (TOPGUN), fans of Top Gun: Maverick, like you, can purchase this one in high end grey or Navy blue - https://www.squadrontees.com/Top_Gun...topgun-hat.htm

the Director speaks to EW –
https://ew.com/movies/2020/01/29/top...ck-new-photos/

also, you’ll note that Joseph says - “The most extreme sequence was glimpsed in the teaser trailer, where Maverick is flying across the desert at a rather insanely low altitude” which, to be precise, was filmed flying over this dry lake bed - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post16768709

Not too far from here - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post59162460

[Penton-Man]

Details -
“The production will work in ACES, shooting in 4K, 6K and 8K, and shifting between SDR and HDR by switching the ACES ODTs. All the data will go into the Amazon Web Services Cloud and the Microsoft Cloud, which will distribute relevant footage to the various collaborators, including AVID, Colorfront, frame.io FCP and Blackmagic, for dailies processing. Zeiss lenses will provide metadata to speed up the VFX work. A colorist will use FilmLight’s Truelight for on-set color, Live Grade for on-set color in Hollywood and Blackmagic’s Resolve for the final color. The Skywalker sound team will create a 7.1, 5.1, Stereo and immersive sound Ambidio version.”.....

“The finished film will be screened for the HPA audience at the close of the event. A projected cinema version will be shown in the conference room while other 8K and HDR versions will be shown on the days after in the innovation zone.”
https://www.tvtechnology.com/the-wir...-makes-a-movie

Scanning the particulars, I think most experienced, longtime readers here will be at least somewhat familiar with many of the faces and devices to be used in the live production at the upcoming Tech Retreat; however, something folks may be unfamiliar with that is truly cutting edge and should gain traction even with major studio productions is Stargate Studios' new real-time VFX process, ThruView - https://www.nabshow.com/news-release...oduction-world

For example, using ThruView, this automobile never left the stage -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8fVsTeEe-c#t=3m42s

So, to be clear, although not necessarily with Top Gun: Maverick, keep an eye out for ThruView's future use in VFX laden motion pictures, commercials, etc.

[Staying Salty]

https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/20...-plummet.6331/

Digging a bit deeper into disc sales, a recent report by MediaPlayNews illustrates 4K UHD Blu-ray’s struggles in the overall market. In general, 4K discs account for roughly 10% of monthly disc sales. In fact, only two of 2019's Top 50 best-selling titles saw 4K releases account for more than 20% of overall sales (Avengers: Endgame with 22% and Alita: Battle Angel with 23%). The next closest titles fell in the 18% range, and that was only a trio of films (Spider-Man: Far From Home, John Wick: Chapter 3 – Parabellum, and X-Men: Dark of Phoenix).

Yes, Virginia, there is a 4K #AlitaArmy

[LordoftheRings]

Those 4K Blus above they're more akin to games.

- A: Endgame
- A: Battle Angel
- Spider-Man: FFH
- John Wick 3
- X-Men: DP

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/20...-plummet.6331/

Yes, Virginia, there is a 4K #AlitaArmy

Liked 4K Alita on first play.

Amazing environment created by VFX

Before


After

[Agent Kay]

Every thread is now an Alita thread

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

How is it possible to convert HLG to HDR10 instantly?

You can't, because for HDR10 you need the metadata, and to get the metadata, you need to analyse the whole file, after the event, not "live".

You can convert it to PQ10, which doesn't have metadata.

Or you can use HDR10 with "lying metadata", ie guessing the peak brightness values, in advance, and injecting those values at the start.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

You can't, because for HDR10 you need the metadata, and to get the metadata, you need to analyse the whole file, after the event, not "live".

You can convert it to PQ10, which doesn't have metadata.

Or you can use HDR10 with "lying metadata", ie guessing the peak brightness values, in advance, and injecting those values at the start.

All it needs is colour primaries and min/max mastering level to qualify as HDR10 with the injection of ST.2086 metadata, those values could easily be pre-determined beforehand by putting a 'speed limit' on the amount of nits the content is being mastered to. It's not an elegant solution but then HDR10 isn't an elegant system, it's a blunt instrument to begin with.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by puddy77

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/p..._Licensing.pdf

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Another decent source with regards to broadcast….. https://www.nctatechnicalpapers.com/...yment-with-hlg

P.S.
To cut to the chase, scrawl down to ‘CBS Lab Demonstrations of HDR10 Display Rendering Variation’ and the real-time LUT-based conversion to HDR10

“The HLG programs and the converted HDR10 signals were simultaneously displayed side-by-side on identical pairs of consumer receivers – three different models; two LCD, one OLED. All of these displays had peak brightness values other than 1,000 nits. For a substantial percentage of the test sequences, the pictures converted to HDR10 format looked worse in various aspects, most frequently with a lack of detail and clipping in the highlights, and color distortions as well.”

So, the fly in the discerning videophile ointment is - how much worse ^ on displays having peak brightness other than 1,000 nits?

Good to see though that there are some members here other than Waboman, gkolb and myself showing an interest in North American football, albeit not the Vikings or Ravens per se. Next we’ve got to convert Wabo and PeterTHX to Premier League football, perhaps vis-à-vis the excitement of watching Liverpool play and possibly pull off the uniqueness of having an undefeated season.