HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

meanwhile, uncredited, as of yet, on imdb, a former combat decorated Blue Angel who did stunt flying for a certain major feature film graded in HDR and pushed back to Dec. 23 for theatrical release…

[Penton-Man]

“However, tone mapping does present a few issues as we’ll discuss in the MailBag:
• Tone mapping assumes content is properly mastered – this why grading on a consumer HDR television can be problematic
• The tone mapping algorithm of consumer sets is not standardized – LG does it differently than Sony, and Panasonic does it different than Sony or LG.
• Most consumer sets do not properly follow the PQ EOTF for 100% of the curve
• One can not turn off tone mapping on a consumer HDR TV, which makes it really hard to grade on one – as you likely won’t see signal issues”
(https://mixinglight.com/color-tutori...-tone-mapping/ )

Actually, with the HZ2000, one is able to turn off tone mapping and hard clip (follows PQ accurately up to the top end of the TV).

[Penton-Man]

content we have described here on this thread before (e.g. one of many - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...o#post12805738 ) in a piece meal fashion as topics of discussion when they first arrived on scene, now nicely organized in one link –

https://opencontent.netflix.com/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

a certain major feature film graded in HDR and pushed back to Dec. 23 for theatrical release…

pointing out to what that movie might be –

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

“However, tone mapping does present a few issues as we’ll discuss in the MailBag:
• Tone mapping assumes content is properly mastered – this why grading on a consumer HDR television can be problematic
• The tone mapping algorithm of consumer sets is not standardized – LG does it differently than Sony, and Panasonic does it different than Sony or LG.
• Most consumer sets do not properly follow the PQ EOTF for 100% of the curve
• One can not turn off tone mapping on a consumer HDR TV, which makes it really hard to grade on one – as you likely won’t see signal issues”
(https://mixinglight.com/color-tutori...-tone-mapping/ )

Actually, with the HZ2000, one is able to turn off tone mapping and hard clip (follows PQ accurately up to the top end of the TV).

Service menu or factory menu?

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

“However, tone mapping does present a few issues as we’ll discuss in the MailBag:
• Tone mapping assumes content is properly mastered – this why grading on a consumer HDR television can be problematic
• The tone mapping algorithm of consumer sets is not standardized – LG does it differently than Sony, and Panasonic does it different than Sony or LG.

True.

• Most consumer sets do not properly follow the PQ EOTF for 100% of the curve

But that's just saying "they are doing tone mapping" . The word "properly" in that sentence is highly disingenuous and unfair; as they admit above, there is no standard, therefore if you are doing tone mapping (which you have to do to avoid clipping), then the lack of a standard means therefore there is no way of doing it "properly", and at the same time, if you are "properly" following the PQ EOTF, then you are going to hard clip, and it'll look crap and they'll criticise that instead. So they have worded that sentence in such a way that criticises consumer sets for not doing something "properly", but that thing (a hard clip) is something which normally you are not supposed to do anyway.

• One can not turn off tone mapping on a consumer HDR TV, which makes it really hard to grade on one – as you likely won’t see signal issues”
(https://mixinglight.com/color-tutori...-tone-mapping/ )

Actually, with the HZ2000, one is able to turn off tone mapping and hard clip (follows PQ accurately up to the top end of the TV).

You can also turn off tone mapping and do a "hard clip" on every TV which supports HGIG mode, because that's what HGIG mode is for and that's what it does!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

True.



But that's just saying "they are doing tone mapping" . The word "properly" in that sentence is highly disingenuous and unfair; as they admit above, there is no standard, therefore if you are doing tone mapping (which you have to do to avoid clipping), then the lack of a standard means therefore there is no way of doing it "properly", and at the same time, if you are "properly" following the PQ EOTF, then you are going to hard clip, and it'll look crap and they'll criticise that instead. So they have worded that sentence in such a way that criticises consumer sets for not doing something "properly", but that thing (a hard clip) is something which normally you are not supposed to do anyway.



You can also turn off tone mapping and do a "hard clip" on every TV which supports HGIG mode, because that's what HGIG mode is for and that's what it does!

I'm not sure that saying "there is no standard" isn't disingenuous in itself, because there is: it's called the PQ EOTF. The problem is of course that there isn't a consumer TV on the planet (and not many pro monitors, if any) than can 'natively' display the maximum parameters of 10k nits and 2020 colour that PQ is designed around, which is where the tone mapping comes in.

Regarding proper PQ tracking vs tone mapping, there is absolutely no standard that the TV manufacturers are adhering to for the latter, no argument there. But one of the biggest problems IMO, and something that does still apply to what was quoted by Mr P, is that even where there should be no issue at all for a TV to follow the prescribed PQ curve, like up to 50% luminance which is still only ~100 nits, the TVs are still doing their own thing. Some will run it too low when doing the mapping and kill the APL, others keep the APL but clip above what the TV can handle, others keep the APL and map above what the TV can handle, others just pump the shit out of the brightness because they want dat 'pop'.

This is why I love my ZD9 like I do, as basically it doesn't really map: it clips. Now, for a TV that could only do much less than 1000 nits peak then that's a problem, but as it can resolve ~1800 nits luminance when correctly following the PQ EOTF with colour rolling off at nearer the 1000-1200 nit levels then the clip still means that at least 75% of the PQ signal is unmolested. Of coursh it's not perfick and I wouldn't dream of suggesting it for use as a mastering monitor, but it's what has allowed me to get such a consistent level of HDR performance from it. Content mastered at or near 1000 nits (which is a lot of it) is displayed "1:1" as Kris Deering put it, and with stuff that greatly exceeds those levels then I can either take advantage of Dobly's mapping if present, or use the HDR Optimiser in the Panasonic 820 to preserve the first 1000 or 1500 nits of the signal and map down the rest.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Service menu or factory menu?

no advanced ‘jail breaking’ needed, if memory serves, the adjustment is located in a Picture submenu under something like ‘HDR tonemapping’

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

True.



But that's just saying "they are doing tone mapping" . The word "properly" in that sentence is highly disingenuous and unfair; as they admit above, there is no standard, therefore if you are doing tone mapping (which you have to do to avoid clipping), then the lack of a standard means therefore there is no way of doing it "properly", and at the same time, if you are "properly" following the PQ EOTF, then you are going to hard clip, and it'll look crap and they'll criticise that instead. So they have worded that sentence in such a way that criticises consumer sets for not doing something "properly", but that thing (a hard clip) is something which normally you are not supposed to do anyway.



You can also turn off tone mapping and do a "hard clip" on every TV which supports HGIG mode, because that's what HGIG mode is for and that's what it does!

Accurate tracking of PQ, seems to be necessary for proper tone mapping. You want a accurate 2.2 gamma (bt.1886) as well. Even if there is no standard, an accurate PQ curve also means gamut mapping is properly performed.

I did just a simple 2 point color temperature meter calibration. Using the factory menu color temperature controls for D65, color coordinates 313x.329y and 2.2 gamma, tone mapping is revealing more detail in highlights.

[Lee A Stewart]

Omdia: Market for MicroLED Displays to Soar Over Next Seven Years

LONDON—The market for micro light-emitting diode (microLED) displays may be negligible at the moment, but one researcher thinks it will quickly ramp up over the next seven years.

U.K. research firm Omdia predicts that global shipments for the displays will jump to more than 16 million units by 2027, led by smartwatch and television markets. MicroLED displays for smartwatches will exceed 10 million units by then, while shipments for the TVmarket will grow to more than 3.3 million.

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/om...xt-seven-years

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

^ Dan, let us know if you go - https://www.boredpanda.com/floating-...mpaign=organic

You’re fantastic: I’m living in the Paris area, and I didn’t know it.
Unfortunately, I can’t attend this event.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

You’re fantastic: I’m living in the Paris area, and I didn’t know it.
Unfortunately, I can’t attend this event.

and as to paying some attention to more of you other folks across the pond, where’s Agent Kay?
Kay, if memory serves, you like dem stand-up comedians, no? Ergo –

Baselight - Grade (T-Log/TCAM v2)
MTI Film Cortex - Dolby IMF and QC

Jack Whitehall: I'm Only Joking | Official Trailer | Netflix - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

^ mrtickleuk but no Agent Kay
Kay, where you be? stuck somewhere in internet hell? - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...l#post17845982

[Penton-Man]

One doesn’t necessarily have to be a pro cinematographer/or reveal all affiliation in order to register for the following. On the sign up for ‘Occupation’, ‘Job Description’, ‘Company Address’, etc. simply select Other in the drop down menu and get ready with your HDR questions - https://www.cinegearexpo.com/cinegea...ematographers/

And ask Erik - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post15146185
as he’s HDR well-informed.

[Penton-Man]

And a more convenient time on the same day for a DV webinar for those across the pond -
https://register.gotowebinar.com/reg...781?source=pdf

[Penton-Man]

14 stops of DR….https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/pro...gicursaminipro

[Pagey123]

What does it cost to rent one of those for a weekend? If you have to ask...

[Penton-Man]

Follow-up to last year with Ian –
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post16449862

this time with regards to HDR-ing the TV series Tales from The Loop -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JADa7rlIHC4#t=35m29s

and for those believing in the paramount importance of skin tone: criminally underrated prerequisites to having good skin tone before grading and mastering –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JADa7rlIHC4#t=47m35s
think about that ^ the next time some of you guys are nit-picking the facial tones of your home deliverables

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Pagey123

you have to ask

the big question –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV8iFzpuecA#t=45m47s

[Penton-Man]

HDR-ing Unhinged -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JADa7rlIHC4#t=1h10m

with a segue at the end into what, close to 5 years and counting, given that SIZE matters, no matter the DV content -

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

what still may be the finest way to watch a DV movie….at least before becoming concerned about SARS-CoV-2 - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post11638216