Demetrius and the Gladiators - 03/16/12 - Limited to 3,000 copies

[Blu Titan]

My copy should be shipping soon (hopefully). Would love to have it in time for the weekend.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Blu Titan

My copy should be shipping soon (hopefully). Would love to have it in time for the weekend.

Whenever, I order anything, I hope that it arrives by the weekend because weekdays I’m generally too tired from work to either use or appreciate it.

Not to hijack the thread from audiovideo shipping logistics, but I really hope I get these by the weekend as the critters are now out and about and I nearly got struck this weekend…

http://www.snakeguards.com/

[Blu Titan]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Whenever, I order anything, I hope that it arrives by the weekend because weekdays I’m generally too tired from work to either use or appreciate it.

Not to hijack the thread from audiovideo shipping logistics, but I really hope I get these by the weekend as the critters are now out and about and I nearly got struck this weekend…

http://www.snakeguards.com/

Yeah, weekdays, I usually watch some basketball but homework and karate classes fro my son tke up most of the time. Movie watching I leave for Friday or Saturday nighst specially with a movie like this, which my wife will enjoy. Anything from Criterion, Argento, and others that my wife can't get into...I view early Saturday, best enjoyed without having to deflect unwarranted criticism .

[ROclockCK]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

But perhaps a lesser known important limiting factor affecting the quality of Blu-rays sourced from ‘scans’ of 2005-ish vintage, is not the scanning apparatus per se, but the displays (CRTs) which were commonly used to produce and Q/A the HD master, see the bottom of page 2 and most importantly, page 3. Be forewarned, page 2 – page 3 is only recommended for those having an attention span longer than a lightning bolt -

http://www.allbusiness.com/media-tel...6608398-1.html

Hey, thanks for dropping by Penton-Man. Your vet insight is always welcome, and the strategic links you provide, a valuable learning experience for me.

In particular, this passage caught my eye:

"Under typical home viewing conditions, a growing number of consumers now have a day-to-day display that provides a more critical view of HD sources than what is in popular use in the facilities that master these sources."

...which is a little alarming. I mean, if the display engines at the consumer end of the video food chain have become more powerful - and especially more accurate - than what is routinely used to master content, then we've got a big problem. But that certainly explains some of the video compression artifacts we've seen all too often on 1st and 2nd generation Blu-rays...as in "How could anyone have ever approved the gnarliness in that transfer...were they blind?!?" What you, and by extension, that piece seem to be saying, is "Yes, they might very well have been blinded by the output of their trusted benchmark CRTs."

Shouldn't the output standards be identical (or as close as technologically possible) end-to-end? It's amazing to me that post-millennium anyone would think it was reasonable to be still using CRTs, regardless of their specs, at any stage in this process. Of course, if Plasma, LCD, and LED output standards aren't consistently aligned anyway...

As someone with admittedly lay interest and knowledge in this area, especially with regards to mastering vintage catalogue titles like Demetrius and the Gladiators, this is what jumped out for me:

"[Non-theatrical display] is the new area of concern that is linked to trying to find ways to ensure that filmmakers' creative intent is realized all the way through to whatever platform it is released on," Clark points out. "For a lot Of this stuff, the train has already left the station, but it doesn't mean we should just throw our hands up in the air. We wouldn't have been able to influence the manufacturers at an earlier stage because we didn't understand the issues. I think there still is hope that some kind of influence can be brought to bear if ways are found for us to ameliorate the problem. It may even raise questions about the way certain material is shot."

What are the checks and balances? This piece seems to be suggesting that it's become something of a free-for-all among display manufacturers trying to best each other in the market, bending standards that are already less than ironclad in a race to wow consumers. I want to believe that the ASC can exert the desired influence at both ends of this process. But will the successful preservation of the original artist's work always come down to the tastes of those supervising a transfer...or just getting a bit lucky along the way?

[ROclockCK]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Interesting in the sense that many consumers out there are not even taking total advantage of the resolution of their 1080p televisions, given their viewing positions.

I guess the industry should have *stopped* at 720p for the majority of consumers, as 1080p was “stupid”.

Ultimately, it wasn't. Yet considering the number of 'average' home video consumers apparently still content with 720p cable and streaming services, not to forget DVDs which continue to be manufactured and sold in significant numbers, the establishment of 1080p as the baseline standard has simply taken much longer than industry proponents originally imagined...no doubt hampered by the worst lingering recession in modern times.

My own observation, just from anecdotal experience talking to a range of home video users...spanning casual renters to 'core collectors...is that unlike the leap from VHS to DVD, which was undeniable in terms of quality, features, presentation and interaction, the benefits of Blu-ray have been inconsistent and somewhat harder to peg. Too often Blu-ray editions (especially of catalogue titles) have represented an outright 'clawback' of DVD features and interaction, with the dribble of features that do get included already available on DVD (reproduced on Blu-ray in SD no less). That leaves quality and presentation, but when studios routinely port legacy, high-ish rez masters of the feature itself without additional work, they render any qualitative benefits of a 1080p Blu-ray at best questionable to negligible. So where's the carrot?

What we really need before we'll see a rising tide floating all boats, is for the studios to simply have the brickles to cease supporting SD. Period.

[ROclockCK]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

‘Reasonable’ viewing distance might be what Joe6Pack watches his movies in at home. ‘Reasonable’ sound for them might also be what the television provides with its attached speakers.

Yep. And it's a fact of life we've had to accept with every home video format to date. That isn't to say I'm agreeing with the lowest common denominator for this or any other medium Penton-Man, I'm just being 'practical' about what the mass market will bear, which directly affects what content we get, at what quality level, and at what cost.

Unfortunately, Joe6pack, Jane7up, and their offspring JackXbox and JillIphone have always chosen price, convenience, and ready availability over quality. Quantity invariably wins over quality every time, and not just for home viewing either. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been the only person among the hundreds watching John Carter last night to bolt from my seat trying to find someone willing to first acknowledge and then correct the out-of-focus top half of the Barco. If anyone else in that audience even noticed this serious presentation flaw, they clearly did not care. Not one.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

For serious home theater enthusiasts, who strive to emulate the theatrical experience by trying to get that immersive *look* by purchasing the largest display they can afford, as well as the best sound system, etc., the technology to bring 4K into the home should be applauded rather than dismissed as it will allow, even with displays < 80”, the ability for folks to achieve that immersive and detailed experience without seeing pixel artifact structure, if they are willing to move their chairs or sofas a few feet forward. In their next purchasing display go-around, I think some home theater enthusiasts would actually like to have that choice rather than being excluded from it by lack of advances in advanced home display technology.

Well, up front I conceded that the author's tone was too "dismissive" and "debunking", and he didn't really consider the next generation of home video which could mean whole walls of active pixel display. At that scale, 1080p couldn't hope to do an adequate job. So make no mistake, I totally reject his long range premise, while still seeing his short range point: the masses haven't even assimilated 1080p yet in their typical home video environments. For those consumers, 4K will be wasted unless their display size and the content feeding it are considerably more "WOWZER" than it is today.

But since too many of them are still happily upscaling their DVDs, and munching their way through NetFlix, the world-weary crank in me just doesn't have a lot of confidence that those consumers will be budging anytime soon. Again, they simply don't care...or don't care enough to invest in home video at that qualitative level.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

b.t.w., the Sony guy quoted in the above linked post in regards to encouraging the industry to use ‘new display technologies’ rather than the time honored gold standard CRTs for HD mastering is also an advocate of the value of 4K for consumer displays far less than 80” in size.

But, what does he know ?…he must be “stupid” too, for the move from CRTs to flat panels in the mastering suite did more to identify and alleviate (for those operators and studios willing to do so) the most common digital artifacts that home theater enthusiasts complain about, namely DNR and EE, from making their way to HD masters and from thence to Blu-ray packaged media than probably any other single improvement in the imaging chain.

Extrapolating from your previous comments, plus those in the link, I had another thought: If there's been a general "throwing up of hands" over the asymmetry of recent high def mastering standards, might 4K also represent an opportunity - and perhaps our best hope - for implementation of better "end-to-end" consumer video standards?

If so, then yes, by all means, bring it on! At every scale, we'll all benefit.

[jaaguir]

Originally Posted by ROclockCK

But I'm a pragmatist too. If 1080p Blu-ray got ahead of the content, representing enormous technical challenges and expense for restoration and remastering of catalogues, which is why high quality Blu-rays of vintage titles like Demetrius and the Gladiators have been slow to come, if at all, then I can only imagine how much of a niche-within-a-niche 4K will become for the home market...at least for the forseeable future. Will studios even be willing to touch anything that started life on film unless it has "Oz", or "Blade", or "Hur" or "Arabia" in the title?

EXACTLY my thoughts about why I won't get into any other home-video format. Of course, if I had the money for a huge screen, I would want the best possible source. I'm happy for everyone who can afford 4k set-ups and plans on joining that wagon.
My problem is, I don't have the money, nor do I plan on getting such a big screen, AND, I, even if I did, I would be sitting in front of a huge expensive 4k set-up, and I would be staring at a BLANK screen. Because that's the number of titles I would want that will get released. Blu-ray is slow enough already in that regard, and life isn't long enough (I'm not a teenager). There is really no point.

Waiting for my Demetrius to ship too.

[timcat4843]

The sequel Demetrius and the Gladiators was good, but I liked The Robe better.

[Deciazulado]

Once Upon a Time in the West - Man with a Harmonica Theme - YouTube

[ROclockCK]

Originally Posted by jaaguir

EXACTLY my thoughts about why I won't get into any other home-video format. Of course, if I had the money for a huge screen, I would want the best possible source. I'm happy for everyone who can afford 4k set-ups and plans on joining that wagon.

I'm happy for any high-end video advancements that drive better overall standards end-to-end jaaguir. If 4K for home theatre enthusiasts means even better looking and sounding 1080p Blu-rays, we all benefit.

Originally Posted by jaaguir

My problem is, I don't have the money, nor do I plan on getting such a big screen, AND, I, even if I did, I would be sitting in front of a huge expensive 4k set-up, and I would be staring at a BLANK screen. Because that's the number of titles I would want that will get released. Blu-ray is slow enough already in that regard, and life isn't long enough (I'm not a teenager). There is really no point.

Waiting for my Demetrius to ship too.

Hang onto it for dear life and treat it with loving care jaaguir. I mean, if Fox has been sitting on an HD master of Demetrius and the Gladiators since 2008/2009, and yet couldn't be bothered releasing it themselves now 6 years into the Blu-ray format, then everyone can see the writing forming on those wall-sized next gen screens. We'll get spectacular 4K versions of all the CGI-laden pop junk we're already awash in, with only a smattering of classic films harvested at 4K or better. Everything else - basically the history of film - will be beamed to us directly (which is what the studios ultimately want anyway), or upscaled from 1080p discs (if we're lucky; most golden and silver era titles will never receive the work needed to take them significantly beyond SD). As mentioned earlier, the law of diminishing returns will eventually set in anyway. Even given the best treatment, there's a practical limit to how much can be harvested from many of those deteriorating old OCNs and IPs.

But it's not all dire or depressing. As long as there is still a market for quality limited runs from fan-centric labels like Twilight Time, it'll be much like collecting movie soundtracks today. Legacy content will still get out there; you'll just have to watch sites like this for early-warnings of its limited availability.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by ROclockCK

Hey, thanks for dropping by Penton-Man. Your vet insight is always welcome, and the strategic links you provide, a valuable learning experience for me.

In particular, this passage caught my eye:

...which is a little alarming. I mean, if the display engines at the consumer end of the video food chain have become more powerful - and especially more accurate - than what is routinely used to master content, then we've got a big problem. But that certainly explains some of the video compression artifacts we've seen all too often on 1st and 2nd generation Blu-rays...as in "How could anyone have ever approved the gnarliness in that transfer...were they blind?!?" What you, and by extension, that piece seem to be saying, is "Yes, they might very well have been blinded by the output of their trusted benchmark CRTs."....

You are quite the prolific poster. I only have time to answer a couple questions here as I make my rounds before 1:00 P.M. and get much needed nourishment.


We had a problem. Some facilities just implemented changes slower…or much slower than others.

Keep in mind I posted that for historical purposes (circa. 2007) as a follow-up to Clark Kent’s comment about technological advances and HD masters. In all fairness, CRT based displays were a time-proven gold standard for evaluating color, precisely. Digital displays used by consumers did not meet the exacting criteria for color correction in a mastering suite but, on the other hand, they quickly demonstrated that they were capable of providing a more critical view of other picture characteristics (grain, edge enhancement) with HD source than what was in popular use at the time in the facilities that master these sources.

Sony identified this *discrepancy*, made appropriate changes in regards to the mastering and post production quality control for SPHE Blu-ray packaged media, and raised awareness in the industry-at-large arguing that quality consumer displays, or professional displays that could duplicate the above mentioned consumer display characteristics, had a place in the color correction and post-production Q/C process and should be considered a viable tool.

Until this paper was published in the SMPTE journal, many post facilities were in fact still using CRTs to master and Q/C Blu-ray product.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by ROclockCK

Shouldn't the output standards be identical (or as close as technologically possible) end-to-end?

Smart minds never sleep…
http://www.hdvideopro.com/technology...g-up-aces.html

[Yankees0222]

Does anyone know when they usually ship new releases? I hope it's not going to be delayed like 'Pal Joey' was

[rondanto]

As of today , the supposed release day for Demetrius, the Screenarchives website still lists Demetrius as pre order only

[rondanto]

Just contacted ScreenArchives, "Demetrius " not in yet. Expected sometime this week.

[Blu Titan]

Originally Posted by rondanto

Just contacted ScreenArchives, "Demetrius " not in yet. Expected sometime this week.

wow, sucks...but thanks for the info.

[Arkadin]

seems to be becoming an unwanted trend.
frustrating.

[timcat4843]

Originally Posted by ROclockCK

I'm happy for any high-end video advancements that drive better overall standards end-to-end jaaguir.
If 4K for home theatre enthusiasts means even better looking and sounding 1080p Blu-rays, we all benefit.

4K treatment should be standard issue for every blu-ray release.
Period.

[Blu Titan]

Sent an inquiry to Ed a few minutes ago and this is his response:

Waiting on the BluRay from the manufacturer right now - Ed

[benbess]

Originally Posted by Blu Titan

Sent an inquiry to Ed a few minutes ago and this is his response:

Thanks. I think with a tiny start up company like this one delays can happen. It's no biggie to me--as long as it arrives in a few weeks. Anyway, I've got a big back log of unwatched blu-rays that I can watch in the meantime.