HDR Discussion Thread

[Member-38928]

Originally Posted by gkolb

I can not know for sure, but the displays in the stores are most probably set on "vivid" even in HDR mode, so part of that "pop" is gonna be superficial.

True but what I am taking about is not something any 'mode' can accomplish, of course though I have spent hours trying all the 'modes' and pretty much ever setting and I just cannot get that crazy nice 4K. Oh and this morning I saw on my 4K HDTVs box, "HDR compatible" , does this mean my TV actually has it? If so then I guess I have some more work to do in the settings.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by cgpublic

Here's something we can all trust to happen: Prepare for live sporting events in 4K HDR.

My body is ready...

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Hmmm. Given the problems that Dobly has had/still has with implementing DV on disc then adding another dynamic system into that mix so that you'd have three formats on a disc (HDR10/10+/DV) opens up a whole 'nuther can of mastering/authoring worms, and it sounds like more trouble than it's worth to me.

However, now I can understand why HDR10+ is being pushed like it is because Dolby have fumbled the ball and if they're not careful then this open source system with its "nominal" fee structure might end up sweeping the dynamic metadata rug from under them.

Exactly what I have been saying. Dolby has been publicly silent AFAIK and the info vacuum will be filled by others and their agendas. Or they may manage to get supplanted by 10+.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Interesting tweet from Vincent Teoh in response to a question about a 2017 Panasonic displaying HDR10+ via HDMI.

"That's a misconception. HDMI 2.1 is not necessary for dynamic metadata such as HDR10+ and Dolby Vision."

https://twitter.com/Vincent_Teoh/sta...10439965057025

HDMI 2.1 is not necessary for ST 2094-40 dynamic metadata of HDR10+ and for proprietary dynamic metadata of Dolby Vision. And these dynamic metadata can be transferred across HDMI 1.4 in a proprietary way à la Dolby (i.e. dynamic metadata are embedded into the uncompressed video flow, and A/V Receivers have problems while adding AVR screen menus into the video flow) as when there was no HDMI standardization on the subject.


Otherwise, in a standard way, the ST 2094 dynamic metadata signaling across HDMI 2.1 is detailed in the standard CTA-861-G, the base document of the HDMI 2.1 specification.
https://standards.cta.tech/kwspub/pu...-G-Preview.pdf

"In CTA-861-G, the HDR Dynamic Metadata Extended InfoFrame is used by a source device [external media player] for identifying and delivering HDR dynamic metadata to a sink device [ST 2094 based Dynamic HDR TV].
The HDR Dynamic Metadata Data Block is used for signaling a sink device’s specific HDR dynamic metadata support capabilities to a source device."
http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts/...01v010201p.pdf
https://www.sra.samsung.com/assets/U...94-40-v1.1.pdf

[BluRayHiDef]

I've been thinking of getting a new 4K-HDR television, because my current one, which is an LG 43UH6500, lacks wide color gamut and has a low peak brightness (~400 nits) and therefore doesn't display HDR ideally/ accurately (though streamed content via Netflix and Amazon look amazing on it to me). However, based on what I've read in this thread, HDMI 2.1 may be a requirement for HDR10+ but won't be implemented into TVs until perhaps next year (2018). So, I guess I should hold my horses until then.

[Shalashaska]

Do you guys think HLG could become the HDR format of choice for streaming services? Like it has for broadcast TV?

I'm kind of struggling to imagine HDR10/DV's absolute luminance being sufficient for those who watch TV in bright rooms with lots of ambient light. AKA, the majority of TV owners.

[Geoff D]

I don't think it will because for the most part the streaming services want content that really pops to begin with, I mean there are always exceptions to that content but I've lost count of the amount of times that I've read "am I doing something wrong, 4K Blu-ray looks much worse than 4K streaming shows?" over the last 18 months or so. Amazon will be using HDR10+ so the dynamic metadata will also help to adjust that content even betterer on certain TVs than with static HDR10 Blu-rays, so that gap will only widen.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by andreasy969

https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meld...t-3820712.html

According to this,

I notice you’re from Germany . Since apparently Oliver K is inactive - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post14022436

Did you or any of our other readers get a chance to attend the ^ session at IFA which I specifically called folks attention to? Erwin was to detail the finer points of HDR10+ which most people have yet to hear about, at least publicly.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

gkolb, I’ll be MIA throughout next week while down in San Diego (and I’m not planning on doing any stinkin AV reporting…if anything, only a fun pic or two) so meanwhile by the time I return I hope to see you and other posters, Geoff, Dan, Richard…too numerous now to mention, hoist this thread thru the 400,000 viewership mark with some style….

Note:
For the nostalgic film fans who really liked Top Gun that might get hungry and yearn for some barbecue while in town for CEDIA. Just up the road (minutes by bike or auto) from the San Diego Convention Center, there’s this….http://kcbbq.net/

As you should remember this scene -

Maverick and Goose "Great Balls Of Fire" (Top Gun) - YouTube

[DanBa]

Apparently, LG is still interested in supporting all HDR formats.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54741598

[Pieter V]

Why HDR10 Plus? Panasonic explains @ IFA 2017 - YouTube

LG IFA 2017 Interview: 77" Wallpaper OLED TV, Technicolor Mode, HDR10+ - YouTube

HDR10+ Dynamic Metadata Explained & Comparison Demo vs HDR10 - YouTube

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Hmmm. Given the problems that Dobly has had/still has with implementing DV on disc then adding another dynamic system into that mix so that you'd have three formats on a disc (HDR10/10+/DV) opens up a whole 'nuther can of mastering/authoring worms, and it sounds like more trouble than it's worth to me.

I don't agree with that if the authoring can be sorted out, then having both on the same disc would be absolutely perfect and idea for consumers and avoid anyone being left out. Everyone gets dynamic metadata, everyone wins.
Having all 3 on the same disc is a utopia which I didn't think was possible, I thought that you could only have one optional layer.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I notice you’re from Germany .

Did you or any of our other readers get a chance to attend the ^ session at IFA which I specifically called folks attention to?

Yes, I'm from Germany. But no, I didn't. I wasn't at IFA, so I'm afraid I can't help you with that.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

I don't agree with that if the authoring can be sorted out, then having both on the same disc would be absolutely perfect and idea for consumers and avoid anyone being left out. Everyone gets dynamic metadata, everyone wins.
Having all 3 on the same disc is a utopia which I didn't think was possible, I thought that you could only have one optional layer.

When you're doing a Dolby Vision pass for UHD Blu then the HDR10 layer is a fundamental component of how it all works, being both derived from and the technical basis for the proper Dolby Vision output. Point being, the HDR10 layer is created from the Dolby original, it's an intrinsic part of that chain so where does HDR10+ fit in re: the creation of its own metadata from source in that specific environment? I suppose the tech gurus could take the same HDR source master (not the DV/HDR10 offshoots) and run that through their HDR10+-O-Matic to create their own metadata, but seeing as the HDR10 layer has already been trimmed from the Dolby master specifically then the HDR10+ data could be making choices not best suited to the Dolby-derived base layer.

I know that's as clear as mud, I'm even confusing myself, but I just think that the HDR10+ workflow would be FAR cleaner if dealing with a freshly graded HDR10 base layer that's its own thing and not an offshoot from the Dolby master. Yes, I also know that with everything on there then everybody wins but it sounds like too much hassle to me with far greater potential for mistakes.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by DanBa

"In CTA-861-G, the HDR Dynamic Metadata Extended InfoFrame is used by a source device [external media player] for identifying and delivering HDR dynamic metadata to a sink device [ST 2094 based Dynamic HDR TV].
The HDR Dynamic Metadata Data Block is used for signaling a sink device’s specific HDR dynamic metadata support capabilities to a source device."

HDMI 2.1 for HDR10+ is required on 4K Blu-ray players in order for A/V receivers to pass the information thru correctly.

[Ruined]

Cool. With Panasonic onboard, along with Samsung, I think HDR10+ is going to be the future HDR metadata of choice on UHDBD. Its just a matter of time before its adopted as the standard of choice.

As Panasonic stated, "with HDR10+ being an open standard it allows us to bring it much farther down the range." The extra cost savings allows for implementation on cheaper sets and greater penetration.

Given HDR10+ and DV do the same thing, yet HDR10+ is both open and has superior HDR10 backwards compatibility across all media types, HDR10+ appears the better dynamic solution overall IMO. I personally wouldn't buy an expensive TV set at this point without HDR10+ to be safe. If HDR10+ does indeed become the standard then the amount of titles a DV set could use dynamic metadata on will be limited.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Ruined

...HDR10+ is both open and has superior HDR10 backwards compatibility across all media types...

What do mean by superior?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

What do mean by superior?

All hdr10+ metadata is backwards compatible with HDR10. Except on UHDBD generally Dolby Vision will revert back to SDR instead of HDR10 on an hdr10 set.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Ruined

All hdr10+ metadata is backwards compatible with HDR10. Except on UHDBD generally Dolby Vision will revert back to SDR instead of HDR10 on an hdr10 set.

Are you referring to a PJ setup, flatscreen, or both in your backward reference?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Are you referring to a PJ setup, flatscreen, or both in your backward reference?

Both.

The key difference though is that projectors don't support either Dolby Vision or HDR10+ as no way to dynamically measure brightness on screen. So unlike a flatscreen currently no way to do dynamic of any sort at all on a projector and may not be for a very long time.

So all HDR10 projectors will revert to SDR by default with Dolby Vision metadata, except on UHDBD where a HDR10 layer is mandated unlike other UHD sources.

On the other hand, all HDR10 projectors will operate at HDR10 for all HDR10+ metadata from all UHD sources.

So for projector users HDR10+ is clearly the better standard to root for IMO.