HDTVTEST (Vincent Teoh) Discussion Thread

[lgans316]

Having both techs under one roof makes it easier for me to decide which is the go to TV for movies. OLED is the safe bet for me despite the minor shortcomings which is always overstated and over discussed. My OLED outweighs the ZD9 in overall picture quality. The ZD9 looks great when there is a high APL bright scene. In challenging scenes I can see it struggle to control light and at times show milky blacks. It can also be a bloom city with certain type of scenes and this IMO is super distracting than near black issues on WOLED. I had the 75ZH8 briefly. Although it was producing a more refined picture than the ZD9, I was let down by weak contrast and blacks thanks to X-Wide angle.

Without owning and trying the TV tech, it is not easy to come up with a balanced opinion.

All that matters is you being happy with your TV but do not bury your heads in the sand and think the opposite tech is inferior.

[Geoff D]

Not inferior per se, I'm just not interested in swapping one set of artefacts for another. And you know I'd see all this shit on OLED. I'd get used to some of it over time, learn to distinguish what the TV is doing and what the source is doing, but contouring like that seen in VT's video would drive me utterly insane.

[lgans316]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Not inferior per se, I'm just not interested in swapping one set of artefacts for another. And you know I'd see all this shit on OLED. I'd get used to some of it over time, learn to distinguish what the TV is doing and what the source is doing, but contouring like that seen in VT's video would drive me utterly insane.

I have noticed such artifacts with bit starved contents especially in dark scenes.

On my 77, the only thing that is a bit annoying to me is coming out of near blacks soon which is what Sony chose to implement to overcome near black chrominance overshoot. Is this is big deal for me? No. Will this be a problem for those with Geoff Vision? Most likely.

Panasonic GZ1000 OLED IMO is better with near black handling than the Sony.

I do get that once you are attached and well connected with your TV, it is better to stay put with a known devil than burn your fingers and wallet with an unknown angel but if you have the room and budget, just try one for a month and return it if you dislike. This way you can adjust your expectations.

I think QD-OLED has a huge potential to leave both WOLED and LCD techs in the dust.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by INdetectableMAN

Some OLEDs may experience some kind of problem, insignificant, almost black.

This is true, and we will not deny it.

But the near-black issues that Full Array LED technology has are much worse, and it has a lot more near-black shit.

You've got blooming, DSE, cloudiness, shadow detail crushing, and all sorts of rear-backlight-related artifacts.

Says someone who has had Sony ZD9, XF900, Panasonic DX902 and Samsung Q9fn and Q90R.

They are good televisions, but in terms of problems and artifacts they are light years away from OLEDs.

It is an outdated technology, largely surpassed by new trends and technologies.

In your visual expert opinion which OLED TV today is the closest to référence accuracy reproduction wise? ...Colors, blacks, shadows, lights, whites, depth of field, contrast, HDR, uniformity, consistency, reliability, less artifacts, idéal brightness (candle nits), wide angles, definition, sharpness, horizontal, vertical, diagonal ... EVERYTHING including the kitchen sink?

[teddyballgame]

Originally Posted by lgans316

I think QD-OLED has a huge potential to leave both WOLED and LCD techs in the dust.

All you need now is QD OLED and you'll have the trinity

If they successfully marry the best parts from each tech then it's a winner. The individual pixel control and depth of OLED but with now with added brightness and color volume of LCD. The uniformity (if truely consistent) is a nice bonus. LG's uniformity was a known issue and and Sony would reportedly bin the panels for their master series. I think LG just didn't have any competition with OLED so they didn't bother to tweak the process. They have to go phOLED now at the high end but it should shift wOLED to a truly mid tier offering which average joes will appreciate. Have to admit it's kind of funny Samsung and Sony still pushing 8k LCDs as flagship. "big and bright" has always been the easiest way to sell an expensive TV though.

I've always struggled with high APL scenes on OLEDs. It's a good step that S95B can reportedly do ~200-220 nit at 100% white and now we know the colors can likely hold up too.
A90J hit something like 175-180nits I believe which was pretty good. It was a small but still appreciable gain from the traditional OLEDs without a heatsink which topped out at 150ish.

When I look at my TVs though I'm definitely not thinking "this isn't good enough" There's always something better (some people have 200" cinemascope screens etc) the trick is just don't worry about it. Always enjoy what you have and focus more on the content than the gear

[Waboman]

Originally Posted by teddyballgame

When I look at my TVs though I'm definitely not thinking "this isn't good enough" There's always something better (some people have 200" cinemascope screens etc) the trick is just don't worry about it. Always enjoy what you have and focus more on the content than the gear

Way too much logic for this place. Reported to the mods. Enjoy your vacation.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by teddyballgame

All you need now is QD OLED and you'll have the trinity

If they successfully marry the best parts from each tech then it's a winner. The individual pixel control and depth of OLED but with now with added brightness and color volume of LCD. The uniformity (if truely consistent) is a nice bonus. LG's uniformity was a known issue and and Sony would reportedly bin the panels for their master series. I think LG just didn't have any competition with OLED so they didn't bother to tweak the process. They have to go phOLED now at the high end but it should shift wOLED to a truly mid tier offering which average joes will appreciate. Have to admit it's kind of funny Samsung and Sony still pushing 8k LCDs as flagship. "big and bright" has always been the easiest way to sell an expensive TV though.

I've always struggled with high APL scenes on OLEDs. It's a good step that S95B can reportedly do ~200-220 nit at 100% white and now we know the colors can likely hold up too.
A90J hit something like 175-180nits I believe which was pretty good. It was a small but still appreciable gain from the traditional OLEDs without a heatsink which topped out at 150ish.

When I look at my TVs though I'm definitely not thinking "this isn't good enough" There's always something better (some people have 200" cinemascope screens etc) the trick is just don't worry about it. Always enjoy what you have and focus more on the content than the gear

Even a full five years later I still find myself marvelling at how good the ZD9 looks, especially when watching modern SDR content as the 140 nit peak brightness I run it at doesn't cause the same blooming/light bleed as what HDR does because it maxes out the backlight. I say 'modern' because old Blu-rays still look old, what with their aggressive yellow/green tints and nuked dynamic range, but SDR 1080p stuff from modern streaming shows looks insanely lush.

[Derb]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Even a full five years later I still find myself marvelling at how good the ZD9 looks, especially when watching modern SDR content as the 140 nit peak brightness I run it at doesn't cause the same blooming/light bleed as what HDR does because it maxes out the backlight. I say 'modern' because old Blu-rays still look old, what with their aggressive yellow/green tints and nuked dynamic range, but SDR 1080p stuff from modern streaming shows looks insanely lush.

It’s just good LED Backlight tech inside the ZD9.

In the end, it’s still LCD.

For all the praise OLED & QD OLEDs get, they are & will remain in the “RPTV” era of modern tech until manufacturers pull out real money to innovate MLED manufacturing.

Baby steps.

Until that happens will have to live with Organic Deuterium Panels.

[INdetectableMAN]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

In your visual expert opinion which OLED TV today is the closest to référence accuracy reproduction wise? ...Colors, blacks, shadows, lights, whites, depth of field, contrast, HDR, uniformity, consistency, reliability, less artifacts, idéal brightness (candle nits), wide angles, definition, sharpness, horizontal, vertical, diagonal ... EVERYTHING including the kitchen sink?

In my opinion a Panasonic OLED is the best there is today in terms of accuracy and image precision.

[wesslan]

Originally Posted by INdetectableMAN

In my opinion a Panasonic OLED is the best there is today in terms of accuracy and image precision.

Really like my HZ2000 and didn't see any of those overshoot problems vincent showed on other oleds so yeah panasonic is very far along with shadow detail and accuracy. But with the chip in 2021 JZ they took a step back and I hope this years LZ is back on track. Otherwise my hopes is with 2023 and mediatek pentonic.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Derb

It’s just good LED Backlight tech inside the ZD9.

In the end, it’s still LCD.

For all the praise OLED & QD OLEDs get, they are & will remain in the “RPTV” era of modern tech until manufacturers pull out real money to innovate MLED manufacturing.

Baby steps.

Until that happens will have to live with Organic Deuterium Panels.

Where was it said it wasn’t an LCD? I don’t do marketing sizzle.

[EddieLarkin]

Originally Posted by wesslan

Really like my HZ2000 and didn't see any of those overshoot problems vincent showed on other oleds so yeah panasonic is very far along with shadow detail and accuracy. But with the chip in 2021 JZ they took a step back and I hope this years LZ is back on track. Otherwise my hopes is with 2023 and mediatek pentonic.

Can confirm the HZ2000 does not have this issue anywhere near the level in Vincent's video. I watched both Wonder Woman and Arrival 4Ks relatively recently and they were both issue free throughout. That's not to say it doesn't exist, at low luminance levels (especially with compressed sources) you do get it slightly, and it is still annoying (and really the only negative point I can give against the TV after spaffing nearly 2000 hours into it this last year), but it does seem like Panny came up with some special sauce solution for the HZ series.

I was shocked when my friend got an A80J a few weeks ago and I went round to help set it up, it couldn't touch the Panny for this sort of processing (granted it wasn't calibrated). Thankfully he's no videophile, we tested a few streaming sources and I pointed out how shite Breaking Bad looked on Netflix because the heavy grain is just a total mush a lot of the time, and he couldn't see what I was talking about even when I literally had my finger on gigantic broken macroblocks...

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

Can confirm the HZ2000 does not have this issue anywhere near the level in Vincent's video. I watched both Wonder Woman and Arrival 4Ks relatively recently and they were both issue free throughout. That's not to say it doesn't exist, at low luminance levels (especially with compressed sources) you do get it slightly, and it is still annoying (and really the only negative point I can give against the TV after spaffing nearly 2000 hours into it this last year), but it does seem like Panny came up with some special sauce solution for the HZ series.

I was shocked when my friend got an A80J a few weeks ago and I went round to help set it up, it couldn't touch the Panny for this sort of processing (granted it wasn't calibrated). Thankfully he's no videophile, we tested a few streaming sources and I pointed out how shite Breaking Bad looked on Netflix because the heavy grain is just a total mush a lot of the time, and he couldn't see what I was talking about even when I literally had my finger on gigantic broken macroblocks...

Yeah, that's partly why I went off the A80J in the end, don't give a fook about how big/cheap it is if the processing isn't top-drawer. And the A90J was/is still so expensive even with the new models just around the corner, I'm not dropping three grand on it when the same or similar money could be spent on this year's model.

And yet the Pannys have that 24p stutter and botched Dolby Vision, the latter which I think you will attest to? (If not you then I'm misremembering, sorry.) It's not that TVs have to be 100% perfick but again, this is why the ZD9 is such a keeper and why I've been so reluctant to "upgrade" as it's just so good in everything that it does. There's genuine all-round class there, that it's in service of a filthy LCD panel would seem to be like putting a Rolls Royce engine inside a Ford Cortina but such a contraption would still slap!

[EddieLarkin]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And yet the Pannys have that 24p stutter and botched Dolby Vision, the latter which I think you will attest to? (If not you then I'm misremembering, sorry.)

Yes that's me, TV-led Dolby Vision is completely borked and unusuable on the HZ2000. Thankfully Player-led is fine, and the TV gives you the option to choose. The trade off there being that Player-led definitely isnt as bright as TV-led, at least on the S&M 10,000 nit demo reel. There doesn't seem to be a difference for more reasonable nit levels, and since the vast majority of real world DV content is sub-1000, I haven't let using player-led only worry me.

As for the 24p stutter I've never once noticed it, thankfully.

[lgans316]

Looks like QD-OLED has superb uniformity and almost zero vertical banding. This IMO is a great news for me who has been through multiple replacements to get a cleaner WOLED panel. Nothing like winning the panel lottery on the first attempt.

[unberechenbar]

Originally Posted by lgans316

Looks like QD-OLED has superb uniformity and almost zero vertical banding. This IMO is a great news for me who has been through multiple replacements to get a cleaner WOLED panel. Nothing like winning the panel lottery on the first attempt.

Weren't you looking to get a larger screen size though?

[lgans316]

Originally Posted by unberechenbar

Weren't you looking to get a larger screen size though?

Yep. No chance I am buying anything below 75 but at least it's nice to hear about screen uniformity of QD-OLED. Not a single complaint about vertical banding so far.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yeah, that's partly why I went off the A80J in the end, don't give a fook about how big/cheap it is if the processing isn't top-drawer. And the A90J was/is still so expensive even with the new models just around the corner, I'm not dropping three grand on it when the same or similar money could be spent on this year's model.

And yet the Pannys have that 24p stutter and botched Dolby Vision, the latter which I think you will attest to? (If not you then I'm misremembering, sorry.) It's not that TVs have to be 100% perfick but again, this is why the ZD9 is such a keeper and why I've been so reluctant to "upgrade" as it's just so good in everything that it does. There's genuine all-round class there, that it's in service of a filthy LCD panel would seem to be like putting a Rolls Royce engine inside a Ford Cortina but such a contraption would still slap!

I bet if you owned the 75" model, you'd be even more reluctant to 'upgrade.'

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by INdetectableMAN

In my opinion a Panasonic OLED is the best there is today in terms of accuracy and image precision.

No fuss ... Panny OLED is like Pioneer Kuro
For North Americans it's Sony or LG OLED

Originally Posted by wesslan

Really like my HZ2000 and didn't see any of those overshoot problems vincent showed on other oleds so yeah panasonic is very far along with shadow detail and accuracy. But with the chip in 2021 JZ they took a step back and I hope this years LZ is back on track. Otherwise my hopes is with 2023 and mediatek pentonic.

No muss ...

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

Can confirm the HZ2000 does not have this issue anywhere near the level in Vincent's video. I watched both Wonder Woman and Arrival 4Ks relatively recently and they were both issue free throughout. That's not to say it doesn't exist, at low luminance levels (especially with compressed sources) you do get it slightly, and it is still annoying (and really the only negative point I can give against the TV after spaffing nearly 2000 hours into it this last year), but it does seem like Panny came up with some special sauce solution for the HZ series.

I was shocked when my friend got an A80J a few weeks ago and I went round to help set it up, it couldn't touch the Panny for this sort of processing (granted it wasn't calibrated). Thankfully he's no videophile, we tested a few streaming sources and I pointed out how shite Breaking Bad looked on Netflix because the heavy grain is just a total mush a lot of the time, and he couldn't see what I was talking about even when I literally had my finger on gigantic broken macroblocks...

No fuss no muss ...

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

Yes that's me, TV-led Dolby Vision is completely borked and unusuable on the HZ2000. Thankfully Player-led is fine, and the TV gives you the option to choose. The trade off there being that Player-led definitely isnt as bright as TV-led, at least on the S&M 10,000 nit demo reel. There doesn't seem to be a difference for more reasonable nit levels, and since the vast majority of real world DV content is sub-1000, I haven't let using player-led only worry me.

As for the 24p stutter I've never once noticed it, thankfully.

Compromises, life is a set of compromises ... HDTV ... Vincent, his video tests, all that jazz.

Originally Posted by lgans316

Looks like QD-OLED has superb uniformity and almost zero vertical banding. This IMO is a great news for me who has been through multiple replacements to get a cleaner WOLED panel. Nothing like winning the panel lottery on the first attempt.

No rush ...
▪︎https://www.techradar.com/news/dont-...e-on-the-cards

[lgans316]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

No rush ...
▪︎https://www.techradar.com/news/dont-...e-on-the-cards

Wow. Never knew the price would drop as days go by and close to Black Friday lol.