Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[eddievanhalen]

Originally Posted by cgpublic

If you are suggesting that a superior TV with DV capability is not a better allocation of budget than a UHD disc player, in this instance one that costs anywhere from two to three times the amount of what a Sony X700/800 or LG UBK90 can be purchased (all three of which have been available for $150), you would be incorrect.

I'm a disabled person, I had an accident back in 2012 (stress from my job, I fainted, big guy, me, fell over my two shoulders which got very messed up even after a 9 hour operation and a year and a half of rehabilitation), I get a mean pension from Spanish goverment, 573 Euros/month. I sell NOS vacuum tubes when I can get them at reasonable prices, teach English when I have the chance but both things don't get me much money.
Short story: I'M FLAT BROKE.
But happy with my dirty cheap Panasonic 420 that somebody from this forum whose name I won't say made me the favour of getting it for me and shipped it from the UK to Spain without asking anything in return.
I don't doubt that Dolby Vision looks great but properly played (like on a Panasonic UHD BD player with its HDR Optimizer) HDR10+ is no joke, it has the potential to look as good as Dolby Vision on a proper set up.
Don't let the numbers fool you or judge a book by its cover, HDR10 looks great.

[eddievanhalen]

Originally Posted by cgpublic

I’m not sure I understand your meaning, just say whatever you want to say.

Setting aside projectors and addressing TVs, you either place a higher importance on the display or the player when determining your budget, it’s that simple.

What I stated was the $350 premium of the UB820, or $850 premium of the UB9000, would be better spent on a superior/larger TV.

So, you either agree, or you don’t. Taking in to account your 20 calibrating TV sets, whatever that’s worth now that FW updates arrive every few weeks and most sets have SDR, HDR10/+ and DV.

Furthermore, instead of calling the feature ‘HDR Optimizer,’ let’s call it what is, a tone-mapping function, which only works with HDR10, not Dolby Vision.

So, in effect, what you are saying is that Panasonic’s tone-mapping function should take precedence not only over every other technical specification including screen size and nits, but that Panny’s implementation is not only superior to Dolby Vision and every manufacturer’s own tone-mapping function, e.g., LG, it’s a ‘must have.’

In what way? I’m curious. Because, in large part, most viewers can’t tell the difference between 1080p and UHD, HDR10 and DV, so it must be something special.

I just hope it’s not one of those ‘things,’ where people start freezing frames and stating, “Now we can see the difference here in the sky.”

Of course we can.

Of course, of course... of course.

Panasonic UHD BD players DO look special. A friend of mine owns the 820 paired with an LG OLED and the picture quality is outstanding. He has a Sony X-800, just like me (we both like and have SACD discs) and comparing the Sony X-800 on his OLED set with the Panasonic 820 makes the Sony look like a joke.

[adamjankowski]

I had the Sony X-800 prior to this Panasonic. I played both players on a Sony Bravia 4K TV and the Panasonic 820 made a DRASTIC difference in picture quality.

I recently got a hell of a deal on an LG OLED, and of course it now looks even better. I can't compare players on the OLED, but on that Sony Bravia, it made a WORLD of difference.

[rickardl]

After applying my STD settings for the display, I now have ended up with
HDR Optimizer to On (as before)
DR Conversion Adjustment to 0
Tone Curve (Black) to 0
so basically everything default/0 except the HDR Optimizer.
For some titles (Die Hard), the HDR Optimizer seems to make no difference on/off
while on others (CE3K), it makes a clearly visible difference, why is that?
EDIT: ok, I think I found it:

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Now, with SDR2020 the HDR Optimizer DOES do something. The reason a lot of you aren't seeing any difference between on and off is because the majority of titles on the market are mastered to 1000 nits. With HDR Optimizer OFF, the player is defaulting to a 1000 nit based tone map. With it ON, the player is adjusting the tone map based on the MaxCLL or MaxDML (which is 1000 for A LOT of movies!!!). If MaxCLL is less than MaxDML, it uses CLL. If MaxCLL is higher than DML, it uses DML. If MaxCLL is 0 it uses DML. If all are zero, it uses 1000.

Question is if this also is valid with SDR/BT.709 output? I assume so...

Also, anyone knows what the 'Display' and 'Picture Type' settings really does?
Display to "Normal" or "Projector" - what would be best for the Samsung Plasma PS64F8500?
Picture Type to "Normal" or "Cinema" "Fine Cinema" etc?

Originally Posted by rickardl

So... I am using the UB820 with a 2013 Samsung Plasma PS64F8500...
Yes, I know I don't get/have HDR or 4K but I wanted to view some of the new 4K releases (such as Alien and Black Hawk Down) even though would be downscaled.
So far I am very pleased, looks great IMHO!
But I wonder if there are some settings which would maximize my (limited) viewing experience a bit more.
I have set
Video Format to 1080p
4K Output to Off
24p Output to Automatic
Dolby Vision to On
HDR10+ to On
Colour Mode to YCbCr (automatic)
Deep Colour Output to Auto 12-bit prio
HDR/Colour Gamut Output to SDR/BT.709
HDR TV Type to Basic Luminance LCD and Projector
HDCP Output Setting HDCP 1.4 Limit
Content Type Flag to Automatic

HDR Opimizer to On
DR Conversion Adjustment to -2
Tone Curve (Black) to +2
All Noise Reductions to 0 (I think they defaulted higher?)

Also, when viewing a normal blu-ray, I get some other options:
Display to "Normal" or "Projector" - what would be best for 2013 Plasma?
Picture Type to "Normal" or "Cinema" "Fine Cinema" etc?

[DVD Josh]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

Just say whatever you want to say. Unless he buys a Z9 or Q9, he will still need HDR Optimizer. But what do I know, I’ve only been calibrating for more than 20 years

So it sounds like from what you are saying is that someone like me (with a ZD9) would not really see much benefit from the 820's optimizer.

[sapiendut]

You will still see benefits in movies such as Aquaman or any other movies mastered above 1,000 nits and still it’s very visible, but as those types of movies are not the norm (at least for the time being) you don’t need it as much as other people using TVs other than Z9 and Q9. Literally the only TV that doesn’t require Optimizer is Dolby Pulsar.

[cgpublic]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

I'm a disabled person, I had an accident back in 2012 (stress from my job, I fainted, big guy, me, fell over my two shoulders which got very messed up even after a 9 hour operation and a year and a half of rehabilitation), I get a mean pension from Spanish goverment, 573 Euros/month. I sell NOS vacuum tubes when I can get them at reasonable prices, teach English when I have the chance but both things don't get me much money.
Short story: I'M FLAT BROKE.

Sorry to hear of your situation, but it was for this very reason I suggested your best bet was to unload the Samsung and purchase an inexpensive, mid-tier FALD LCD, keep your X800, and forego/sell your Panny, for exactly the reason I stated in my post.

The best investment of your limited funds is a superior/larger TV, which with recent developments/price drops, are now much more affordable.

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

But happy with my dirty cheap Panasonic 420 that somebody from this forum whose name I won't say made me the favour of getting it for me and shipped it from the UK to Spain without asking anything in return.

You would be even happier with a new superior/larger TV, which might be possible if you unload both the Sammy and the Panny.

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

I don't doubt that Dolby Vision looks great but properly played (like on a Panasonic UHD BD player with its HDR Optimizer) HDR10+ is no joke, it has the potential to look as good as Dolby Vision on a proper set up.
Don't let the numbers fool you or judge a book by its cover, HDR10 looks great.

Well, I never suggested that the Panny's tone mapping function doesn't provide a benefit, although some have cited at a cost, i.e., increased banding, but to suggest that the function somehow supplants DV or a superior panel/TV is simply not the case.

[cgpublic]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

Panasonic UHD BD players DO look special. A friend of mine owns the 820 paired with an LG OLED and the picture quality is outstanding. He has a Sony X-800, just like me (we both like and have SACD discs) and comparing the Sony X-800 on his OLED set with the Panasonic 820 makes the Sony look like a joke.

Originally Posted by adamjankowski

I had the Sony X-800 prior to this Panasonic. I played both players on a Sony Bravia 4K TV and the Panasonic 820 made a DRASTIC difference in picture quality.

I recently got a hell of a deal on an LG OLED, and of course it now looks even better. I can't compare players on the OLED, but on that Sony Bravia, it made a WORLD of difference.

Originally Posted by sapiendut

You will still see benefits in movies such as Aquaman or any other movies mastered above 1,000 nits and still it’s very visible, but as those types of movies are not the norm (at least for the time being) you don’t need it as much as other people using TVs other than Z9 and Q9. Literally the only TV that doesn’t require Optimizer is Dolby Pulsar.

Sorry not sorry.

[Fendergopher]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

You will still see benefits in movies such as Aquaman or any other movies mastered above 1,000 nits and still it’s very visible, but as those types of movies are not the norm (at least for the time being) you don’t need it as much as other people using TVs other than Z9 and Q9. Literally the only TV that doesn’t require Optimizer is Dolby Pulsar.

Recent titles like Black Hawk Down resolve highlight detail up to 8000 nits, so pretty much any consumer HDR display can benefit from the optimizer depending on the content. I wonder though how the optimizer affects films with very high MaxFALL on OLEDs considering their very aggressive ABL? Does it help retain APL at all or is it mainly effective at retaining highlights?

[sapiendut]

Really? I never thought any movie was graded beyond 4000 nits.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

Really? I never thought any movie was graded beyond 4000 nits.

Sony have done several that go way higher than 4k nits. Even one of the first ever UHDs, Fury Road from Warners, has MaxCLL that goes above 9k nits. The PQ EOTF is based around a 10k nit container after all, it just doesn't use it all of the time. And even though the 4k nit Pulsar is at the pinnacle of current HDR pro grading tech they can use waveforms or temporary tone maps to visualise >4k nit information.

[sapiendut]

Wow! Thank you for the info!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Fendergopher

Recent titles like Black Hawk Down resolve highlight detail up to 8000 nits, so pretty much any consumer HDR display can benefit from the optimizer depending on the content. I wonder though how the optimizer affects films with very high MaxFALL on OLEDs considering their very aggressive ABL? Does it help retain APL at all or is it mainly effective at retaining highlights?

I think the Optimiser is built around the MaxCLL first and foremost, then the MaxMDL if CLL is not available, that it's primarily about the brightest part of the image above whatever arbitrary level is selected (500, 1000, 1500 etc) and then mapping only those parts of the content that exceed that arbitrary figure, thereby preserving the majority of the APL in any given shot, though a high-brightness full-field image would obviously get toned down.

If you have something that has an exceedingly high (>1k nit) average brightness as well as high peak brightness, like several Sony titles I could mention, then yeah, setting the Optimiser particularly low like sub 500 would then impact the APL as well simply by association. I don't see how it would help with getting around ABL though because either way the overall brightness of the image would be dimmed, either by the Optimiser reducing APL in the scenario described whereby the ABL wouldn't need to intrude, or the Optimiser passing the APL untouched whereby the ABL would kick in anyway.

[eddievanhalen]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I think the Optimiser is built around the MaxCLL first and foremost, then the MaxMDL if CLL is not available, that it's primarily about the brightest part of the image above whatever arbitrary level is selected (500, 1000, 1500 etc) and then mapping only those parts of the content that exceed that arbitrary figure, thereby preserving the majority of the APL in any given shot, though a high-brightness full-field image would obviously get toned down.

If you have something that has an exceedingly high (>1k nit) average brightness as well as high peak brightness, like several Sony titles I could mention, then yeah, setting the Optimiser particularly low like sub 500 would then impact the APL as well simply by association. I don't see how it would help with getting around ABL though because either way the overall brightness of the image would be dimmed, either by the Optimiser reducing APL in the scenario described whereby the ABL wouldn't need to intrude, or the Optimiser passing the APL untouched whereby the ABL would kick in anyway.

After reading your post I tested several titles that make a gentle use of HDR with the HDR Optimizer on and off like Ghost In The Shell, Arrival and Blade Runner 2049 and it barely makes a difference if at all.

[LordoftheRings]

Some spells "Optimizer" correctly. ...Others not.

[eddievanhalen]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Some spells "Optimizer" correctly. ...Others not.

Have I? English is not my mother languaje, I'm Spanish.

[ronboster]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

Have I? English is not my mother languaje, I'm Spanish.

No he wasn't referring to your post, he was taking a shot at Geoff.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

Have I? English is not my mother languaje, I'm Spanish.

You have it correct...with a "z". Your language is perfectly fine, I'm French (Wuebec).

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

After reading your post I tested several titles that make a gentle use of HDR with the HDR Optimizer on and off like Ghost In The Shell, Arrival and Blade Runner 2049 and it barely makes a difference if at all.

Yes, because there's nothing there for the Optimiser to map down, all three have been mastered with very low average brightness levels as well as low peak brightness, though zmarty's waveform analysis video of Arrival showed that it had some 600-nit highlights IIRC (oh, for the days when we'd get HDR YouTube videos from experts and not idiots). Ghost in the Shell gets VERY bright during certain moments in the climax, though it's not worth leaving the Optimiser on during the whole movie just for that one moment, which shows how clunky a solution it still is. There's some very slight banding during the opening sequence which the Optimiser made worse as well.

[eddievanhalen]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yes, because there's nothing there for the Optimiser to map down, all three have been mastered with very low average brightness levels as well as low peak brightness, though zmarty's waveform analysis video of Arrival showed that it had some 600-nit highlights IIRC (oh, for the days when we'd get HDR YouTube videos from experts and not idiots). Ghost in the Shell gets VERY bright during certain moments in the climax, though it's not worth leaving the Optimiser on during the whole movie just for that one moment, which shows how clunky a solution it still is. There's some very slight banding during the opening sequence which the Optimiser made worse as well.

On Star Trek Into Darkness while on the planet Nubiru Kirk and Bones jump to the see to meet the underwater Enterprise while they are diving there are plenty of different shades of blue, wouldn't this scene with many shades of the same color be prone to banding? I can't see any with the HDR Optimizer on.
Also, on 2001 A Space Oddyssey at the beginning with the Earth and the Sun rising behind it with different shades of red and orange and later during the sun set, wouldn't these two scenes be also prone to banding. I've seen none with the HDR Optimizer on. But I also have to keep in mind that my TV is only 49" despite I sit at only 1.20/1.40 meters from it. A small set can hide artifacts.