4K Movies Releases - Page 177 - Blu-ray Forum

vargo · 06-12-2014, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

How much bandwidth (in Mbps) do you think that HEVC encoded Rec. 2020 compliant 4K transmissions from stored content delivered at 60fps would require given the current state of encoding?

It depends on the source and what picture quality you are going for.

Today if we ask someone what bitrate H.264 encoded 1080p 'requires' we will get a whole range of answers.

It's the same with HEVC. More so in fact due to how it falls apart more gracefully when bitrate starved. 'Low quality' HEVC can be quite watchable.

Steedeel · 06-12-2014, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

One way or another….we’ll bait Peter into getting involved.

Let's hope so. Regardless, he has been a good sport so fair play to the man.

Well, it's here Penton man! Just saw decent odds for Portugal so may have a little flutter on them and Italy. Not worth going for all the faves anyway.

Penton-Man · 06-12-2014, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steedeel

30?

Quote:

Originally Posted by singhcr

I'm guessing 30 Mbps as well.

Perhaps a tad high but not a bad guess at all especially if you’re not concerned about live feeds with sports programming or delivering higher chroma subsampling like 4:2:2 from stored content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by singhcr

I can't wait to watch the Cup! I am heading out from work early and I brought earplugs to wear while I am in my cubicle this month as I don't want to overhear any of the scores. One downside of increased interest from casual fans is that they like to talk and not watch, which is a problem for those who are going to be watching the games later in the evening after work.

You got the fever too.

My nationalistic heart (at least until the result of the U.S. vs Ghana match on Monday) is with the good ole U.S. of A. - http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/...brazil-n129006

If we don’t make it out of the group then I switch allegiances accordingly and can still

enjoy the tournament with the caveat that the players aren’t worn out

from their long league seasons with their club teams…..i.e. will Messi and others show up in top form? or will the long campaigns with their clubs in the premier/elite leagues take a toll like the Belmont did with California Chrome.

For those wondering, my money…. is on/with a Brazil vs. Argentina final.

Penton-Man · 06-12-2014, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vargo

It depends on the source and what picture quality you are going for.

Well, as a home theater enthusiast forum we’re ‘going for’ a picture quality which will provide a compelling viewing experience superior to that of 8bit Rec.709 1080p resolution Blu-rays.

The source? Let’s make it easy. Non-sports content captured with something like a Sony F55 camera or 5K Red Epic and encoded with a commercial HEVC encoder like which Netflix is currently using -

Penton-Man · 06-12-2014, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Let's hope so. Regardless, he has been a good sport so fair play to the man.

Indeed he has.

Peter, if you don’t know who Geri was (from the last page) and couldn’t recognize him by his Spanish football kit or defensive prowess, here he is in civilian clothes with Shakira (and their little one) last week at one of my old stomping grounds down the road from DC's Uptown theater….http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ional-zoo-too/

Penton-Man · 06-12-2014, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Well, it's here Penton man! Just saw decent odds for Portugal so may have a little flutter on them and Italy. Not worth going for all the faves anyway.

Steed, can you view those NBC Nightly News video clips (which I occasionally post) in your neck of the woods?

If so, are you pulling a *sickie* if England gets to the quarter-finals?
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/wo...ngland-n128971

I’m just wondering how much economic world productivity is lost during the World Cup tournament?

Steedeel · 06-12-2014, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Steed, can you view those NBC Nightly News video clips (which I occasionally post) in your neck of the woods?

If so, are you pulling a *sickie* if England gets to the quarter-finals?
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/wo...ngland-n128971

I’m just wondering how much economic world productivity is lost during the World Cup tournament?

No can do friend. Would just have to miss game.

vargo · 06-12-2014, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well, as a home theater enthusiast forum we’re ‘going for’ a picture quality which will provide a compelling viewing experience superior to that of 8bit Rec.709 1080p resolution Blu-rays.

The source? Let’s make it easy. Non-sports content captured with something like a Sony F55 camera or 5K Red Epic and encoded with a commercial HEVC encoder like which Netflix is currently using -

At the encoding speed that Netflix find acceptable, the HEVC encoder they are using barely outperforms H.264. They are not happy with it at all currently. So you are talking about 60Mbps+ to achieve reference quality 'superior than Bluray' 4K60. Although nobody is commercially shooting reference quality 4K yet anyway, especially not on toys like RED.

The test model can do it with lower bitrate albeit massively longer encoding times. Eventually commercial encoders will achieve the promised efficiency in reasonable time but right now nobody is willing to spend 100s of times longer to encode something twice as efficient as H.264.

Nobody is going to even attempt to broadcast or stream reference quality 4K though, not in the near future.

singhcr · 06-12-2014, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Perhaps a tad high but not a bad guess at all especially if you’re not concerned about live feeds with sports programming or delivering higher chroma subsampling like 4:2:2 from stored content.

You got the fever too.

My nationalistic heart (at least until the result of the U.S. vs Ghana match on Monday) is with the good ole U.S. of A. - http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/...brazil-n129006

If we don’t make it out of the group then I switch allegiances accordingly and can still

enjoy the tournament with the caveat that the players aren’t worn out

from their long league seasons with their club teams…..i.e. will Messi and others show up in top form? or will the long campaigns with their clubs in the premier/elite leagues take a toll like the Belmont did with California Chrome.

For those wondering, my money…. is on/with a Brazil vs. Argentina final.

I am with you my friend. I hope the US does well and I really want to support them, but my gut feeling is that they will not make it out of the group. If they can beat Ghana, they have a good chance of advancing if they can at least tie against Germany or Portugal. However, I am used to having other teams to root for as I am a long suffering Minnesota Timberwolves fan. I like Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Portugal, Spain, the Netherlands, etc so I can still enjoy things if the US does not advance.

I am expecting a Brazil-Spain final, personally. Argentina seems to have a habit of fading away later in the tournament, but anything is possible. Heck, the US almost beat Brazil (lost 1-0) in 1994 during the Round of 16.

Richard Paul · 06-13-2014, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Should do one geek-i-fied post before the World Cup begins, so ponder this -

Lots has been made in the press citing ~ 15Mbps as a target rate for HEVC encoded 4K content on rollout from various entities, e.g. Netflix, etc.

How much bandwidth (in Mbps) do you think that HEVC encoded Rec. 2020 compliant 4K transmissions from stored content delivered at 60fps would require given the current state of encoding?

With the Main 12 profile my guess is that it could be done at about 25 Mbps for broadcast quality video.

Penton-Man · 06-13-2014, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vargo

At the encoding speed that Netflix find acceptable, the HEVC encoder they are using barely outperforms H.264. They are not happy with it at all currently. So you are talking about 60Mbps+ to achieve reference quality 'superior than Bluray' 4K60. Although nobody is commercially shooting reference quality 4K yet anyway, especially not on toys like RED.

The test model can do it with lower bitrate albeit massively longer encoding times. Eventually commercial encoders will achieve the promised efficiency in reasonable time but right now nobody is willing to spend 100s of times longer to encode something twice as efficient as H.264.

Nobody is going to even attempt to broadcast or stream reference quality 4K though, not in the near future.

Yes, I’m familiar with Netflix’s encoding technology team’s public comments (which, b.t.w., taken in piecemeal fashion, have turned off some techs from smaller entities (with less $$) having visions of HEVC deployment investment in the near future).

Anyway, no matter what the spatial resolution, I don’t consider “a compelling viewing experience superior to that of 8-bit Rec.709 Blu-rays” the same thing as ‘reference quality 4K’, which I would consider to be the mezzanine files given to Netflix by the studio(s)….that’s ‘reference’ quality.

My point is that if the BDA chooses to implement UHD-1 type parameters (i.e. better than 8bit Rec.709, in other words, better bit depth, color space and dynamic range, not to mention ever considering 4:2:2 chroma subsampling which would add even additional bandwidth headroom) for a compelling user experience with 4K Blu-rays in order to differentiate themselves from other forms of content delivery in the marketplace (e.g. streaming), that be do-able with Blu-ray discs.

Penton-Man · 06-13-2014, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vargo

...but right now nobody is willing to spend 100s of times longer to encode something twice as efficient as H.264.

Not sure if this is public knowledge or not, but I don’t consider it to be confidential, so, fact is, Netflix’s encodes times are ~10x longer with HEVC over that of H.264 to achieve the same picture quality.

Penton-Man · 06-13-2014, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steedeel

No can do friend. Would just have to miss game.

Well, I'd like to see England do well this time. So Good Luck.

Penton-Man · 06-13-2014, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by singhcr

I am expecting a Brazil-Spain final, personally. Argentina seems to have a habit of fading away later in the tournament, but anything is possible.

My heart is with Brazil but I think Argentina might take it all. Yesterday's effort wasn't awe-inspiring. They must step-up if they have plans on becoming champion.

Penton-Man · 06-13-2014, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by singhcr

I can't wait to watch the Cup! I am heading out from work early and I brought earplugs to wear while I am in my cubicle this month as I don't want to overhear any of the scores. One downside of increased interest from casual fans is that they like to talk and not watch, which is a problem for those who are going to be watching the games later in the evening after work.

Figure all bets are off if you have little monsters either visiting for the summer holiday

, or your very own little monsters at home when you get back from work….

vargo · 06-13-2014, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Anyway, no matter what the spatial resolution, I don’t consider “a compelling viewing experience superior to that of 8-bit Rec.709 Blu-rays” the same thing as ‘reference quality 4K’, which I would consider to be the mezzanine files given to Netflix by the studio(s)….that’s ‘reference’ quality.

You asked in the context of a home theatre enthusiast so I answered in that context - reference quality in the same way that we commonly talk about the very best Blurays.

With such questions, especially when asked in vague terms, there is always potential for nitpicking over language and that's not something that interests me.

Quote:

My point is that if the BDA chooses to implement UHD-1 type parameters (i.e. better than 8bit Rec.709, in other words, better bit depth, color space and dynamic range, not to mention ever considering 4:2:2 chroma subsampling which would add even additional bandwidth headroom) for a compelling user experience with 4K Blu-rays in order to differentiate themselves from other forms of content delivery in the marketplace (e.g. streaming), that be do-able with Blu-ray discs.

Well, the way that you phrased the question was "at this current state of encoding" and right at this moment in time it's not doable or practical. (im nitpicking deliberately because you asked for it

).

But by the time a 4K Bluray format would take to hit the market, yes, for sure it's doable. More space would be nice though, in the very least higher density via track pitch and mark length a la BDXL seems like a no-brainer. I would be disappointed if they did not go that route.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Not sure if this is public knowledge or not, but I don’t consider it to be confidential, so, fact is, Netflix’s encodes times are ~10x longer with HEVC over that of H.264 to achieve the same picture quality.

Yes I was referring to the test model in that sentence.

scorpiontail60 · 06-13-2014, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vargo

It depends on the source and what picture quality you are going for.

Today if we ask someone what bitrate H.264 encoded 1080p 'requires' we will get a whole range of answers.

It's the same with HEVC. More so in fact due to how it falls apart more gracefully when bitrate starved. 'Low quality' HEVC can be quite watchable.

1080p @ 30 FPS using H.264 requires at least 20 Mbps to prevent detail loss and present image quality close to its source.

Therefore 1080p @ 60 FPS would require 40 Mbps.

4K is 4x the resolution of 1080p so it would require 160 Mbps.

However, HEVC is twice as efficient as H.264 so the bitrate could be halved to 80 Mbps.

Therefore:

Good looking, artifact free, full-detail 4K @ 60 frames per second using the HEVC codec would therefore require a bitrate of at least 80 Mbps.

Good looking, artifact free, full-detail 4K @ 30 frames per second using the HEVC codec would require a bitrate of at least 40 Mbps.

And of course, 24 FPS is 80% of the framerate of 30 FPS so 4K movies @ 24 frames per second using the HEVC codec would requite a bitrate of at least 32 Mbps.

Anything less than these bitrates will see a varying degree of detail loss and thus defeat the purpose of 4K visuals - perfect picture quality.

Isn't math fun?

Steedeel · 06-13-2014, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well, I'd like to see England do well this time. So Good Luck.

Thanks, same to your troops. Especially Jozy.

PeterTHX · 06-13-2014, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scorpiontail60

1080p @ 30 FPS using H.264 requires at least 20 Mbps to prevent detail loss and present image quality close to its source.

Therefore 1080p @ 60 FPS would require 40 Mbps.

Bitrate doesn't scale linearly like that, for one thing the data compression depends on the picture radically changing from frame to frame. More frames does not mean different information. A 60fps version of a 20Mbps stream may only require a tiny bit more bitrate.

Resolution differences are often the reason for biggest increases in bitrate (other than fast motion and other rapid changes). A single 4K frame has 4 times the amount of information a 2K one does. But (again) you don't need 4 times the bitrate to accommodate that. Just as 1080p has roughly 6x the resolution over 480i, Blu-rays have roughly 2-4x the bitrate of DVDs.

scorpiontail60 · 06-13-2014, 10:41 PM

You are mistaken.

DVDs are authored using MPEG-2 and usually see ~6-8 Mbps bitrates.

Most Blu-rays are authored using H.264 and usually see ~24-34 Mbps bitrates.

As H.264 is twice as efficient as MPEG-2, that is equal to 48-68 Mbps MPEG-2 bitrates.

Blu-rays therefore typically have 8x the bitrate of their DVD equivalent.

06-13-2014, 10:41 PM	#3540
scorpiontail60 Banned Member since:Aug 2011 Blu-ray reviews:1	You are mistaken. DVDs are authored using MPEG-2 and usually see ~6-8 Mbps bitrates. Most Blu-rays are authored using H.264 and usually see ~24-34 Mbps bitrates. As H.264 is twice as efficient as MPEG-2, that is equal to 48-68 Mbps MPEG-2 bitrates. Blu-rays therefore typically have 8x the bitrate of their DVD equivalent.

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