Oh noes teh sky is falling!

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

(1) The post I was referring to is #282 “Overall digital revenue in the first half of the year was up more than 24% to more than $3 billion, with EST revenue up more than 50%, DEG reported, crediting the increase to convenient access to digital collections and greater availability of digital at retail."

(2)I said around 1 Billion, seems safe to say it would be over 1 B by now

(3)I said it was a critique, I did not say it was unbiased. The link was included to show the source. He effectively compared what is happening to physical disk revenue and digital revenue. I took the 4.63 to be the author's typo. Total home entertainment spending is of no interest to me, just physical (BD) vs EST.

My interest in following EST vs BD revenue going forward is that if the perception that the 4K Ultra HD download surpasses or just equals 2K BD quality, the number of people who insist on having physical media will decline and probably accelerate. Since Sony just introduced their Ultra HD service, the historical figures aren't going to reflect any impact. They are important, though, because they show how rapidly EST revenue has been growing.

If Sony has its way, those who prefer physical media will be served by ‘mastered in 4K BDs’, while the rest will be content with digital.

I have been interacting with owners of the Sony 4K Ultra HD TV’s and the Sony Media Server. The Sony 4K download service just started in early Sept. These owners are very enthusiastic about the quality of the True 4K downloads and rentals they are watching. I have tried to get them to provide a comparison of a True UHD 4K movie with a 2K BD. No one seems interested enough to bother buying a physical disk of the same movie to do this.
I may rent a BD of After Earth from Redbox and see if Best Buy will let me compare it to the Sony Ultra 4K demo, which has clips of After Earth. running on their 65" UHD

Over on AVS, the last time I looked, there were 87 pages on a thread for the 4K Ultra HD Sony TVs. They are more concerned about solving issues and providing feedback on set up for their Sony TVs and Media Servers than they are about what will or will not happen to physical media.

Something else to watch is the content on the Sony download service. You can bet the other studios are watching this very closely. Once the initial kinks are worked out, I expect to see Sony come to some agreement on opening up the download service to other studios for content provision. Or, perhaps they will all set up a hub, where all studios provide rental and downloadable Ultra HD content.

Sony is keeping tight control during this early adopter phase. The FMP-X1 media server is really not far removed from a prototype. A few people in foreign countries actually purchased them, only to find out the download service is not available and the media server will not work in their country. Sony plans to provide the service internationally in the future, but the Media Server will be a different model.

A hack of their content security would be a major blow to this rollout.

Sooooooooo, a 4k download that matches bluray quality will appease 4k fans/or bluray fans. How does that work exactly? Can I presume 8k downloads will match 4k bluray? Isn't the point of 4k downloads the true 4k quality they may/will provide.

[Tok]

Is raygendreau really pagemaster and THXGuru?

[Tok]

Only dumbasses have DVD only players hooked up to HDTV sets. BD players can be had for easily under $100 and catalog software can be bought for under $10.

BD is doing just fine.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Trevorriley

Blu-ray may be popular in some ares but it is still not widely used. Compared to DVD, it is a little more expensive and there are very few players to play it.

Very few players? Is that a joke? J&R is currently selling 34 different models. Best Buy sells at least 46.

In dollars, in the U.S., Blu-ray constitutes 29% of physical media sales year to date. In 2012, Blu-ray did almost $2.2 billion in sales in the U.S.

DVD in dollars is still the majority of sales, but that's partially because there are far more titles available on DVD. But I agree with those who feel that anyone who has an HDTV, but still only watches DVD, is an idiot (unless they're having severe financial problems, but they did buy that TV).

[Tok]

I'm guessing a lot of these streaming trolls backed a certain failed HD disc format. A lot of the vocal ones won't be happy until BD is gone just so they can say 'haha I told you it would fail'

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Sooooooooo, a 4k download that matches bluray quality will appease 4k fans/or bluray fans. How does that work exactly? Can I presume 8k downloads will match 4k bluray? Isn't the point of 4k downloads the true 4k quality they may/will provide.

if you are interested, take a look at the Amazon reviews and comments, the comments on the Sony Store and the 88 pages of user comments and posts on the AVS Sony TV thread, from people that actually own the products. I didn't get interested in this until just two weeks ago when I saw the True 4K demo running on the Sony at Best Buy. It stopped me in my tracks. It was impressive.

Originally Posted by Tok

Is raygendreau really pagemaster and THXGuru?

I don't even know who they are.

I'm not Blu-ray's arch enemy; I tend to adopt new technology, but not until the glitches are worked out.

I have rented physical media since VHS. I still use Redbox for convenience and price. I used Netflix for years. I have always preferred Blu-ray for PQ and AQ quality. If you look to the left, you can see that I own a couple 100 BDs and 3DBDs. If I perceive 4K download to be superior or equal to 2K BD, I doubt that I will buy any more BDs. When I look at comments on Amazon and AVS and see the" Wows" and "Spectacular", well its time to ask questions. I am exactly where I was when the HD DVD vs BD war was on in 2006. I choose a PS3 to get into it, because if HDDVD won the battle, I would still have a game console. So I will upgrade to the PS4 for a similar reason. Next will be an upgrade to the Sony 4K Ultra TV, possibly the 65". In the mean time I will find a way to compare a movie on BD and True 4K download, before I make a buying decision. There is too much enthusiasm for how any existing media, whether it be download or physical, looks on these Ultra HD sets. I see no reason to wait around for a spec and equipment delivery of physical 4K disks.

[Tok]

I don't believe people posting on the quality of downloading to a 4K server this soon. It's called hype at this point.

Remember Sony's fake movie reviewers of the past.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Tok

I don't believe people posting on the quality of downloading to a 4K server this soon. It's called hype at this point.

Remember Sony's fake movie reviewers of the past.

Yes, that accounts for some of the responses. People will justify their new purchases. That is one of the reasons I want a first hand comparison. I'm surprised no one has posted screen caps on AVS Forum.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

if you are interested, take a look at the Amazon reviews and comments, the comments on the Sony Store and the 88 pages of user comments and posts on the AVS Sony TV thread, from people that actually own the products. I didn't get interested in this until just two weeks ago when I saw the True 4K demo running on the Sony at Best Buy. It stopped me in my tracks. It was impressive.

I don't even know who they are.

I'm not Blu-ray's arch enemy; I tend to adopt new technology, but not until the glitches are worked out.

I have rented physical media since VHS. I still use Redbox for convenience and price. I used Netflix for years. I have always preferred Blu-ray for PQ and AQ quality. If you look to the left, you can see that I own a couple 100 BDs and 3DBDs. If I perceive 4K download to be superior or equal to 2K BD, I doubt that I will buy any more BDs. When I look at comments on Amazon and AVS and see the" Wows" and "Spectacular", well its time to ask questions. I am exactly where I was when the HD DVD vs BD war was on in 2006. I choose a PS3 to get into it, because if HDDVD won the battle, I would still have a game console. So I will upgrade to the PS4 for a similar reason. Next will be an upgrade to the Sony 4K Ultra TV, possibly the 65". In the mean time I will find a way to compare a movie on BD and True 4K download, before I make a buying decision. There is too much enthusiasm for how any existing media, whether it be download or physical, looks on these Ultra HD sets. I see no reason to wait around for a spec and equipment delivery of physical 4K disks.

IMO, it doesn't come across like that. I am (just my opinion) picking up a definite download bias from you. Maybe,it's just me.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

I see no reason to wait around for a spec and equipment delivery of physical 4K disks.

Then what are you waiting for, place your order!!

But I will tell you again, many (most?) of the folks here don't care to purchase content that is not covered by the First Sale Doctrine.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

IMO, it doesn't come across like that. I am (just my opinion) picking up a definite download bias from you. Maybe,it's just me.

It's not just you.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Tok

It's not just you.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

IMO, it doesn't come across like that. I am (just my opinion) picking up a definite download bias from you. Maybe,it's just me.

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Then what are you waiting for, place your order!!

But I will tell you again, many (most?) of the folks here don't care to purchase content that is not covered by the First Sale Doctrine.

Originally Posted by Tok

It's not just you.

My bias is toward the best quality PQ available, based on my perception. I am not married to physical disk media. I'll go where the quality is. There is no point in taking it personally.

I have just discovered why I was so struck by the color palette on the 4K Sony. It is the support of xvYCC. In another thread I compared the BD spec to the eyeIO 4K Ultra HD codec spec. The download spec supports xvYCC. Until Sony released the Mastered in 4K BDs, as far as I can tell, no previous BD has used it. All of my equipment supports xvYCC, including my Pioneer AVR. Time for me to buy one of the Mastered in 4K BDs. EDIT After extensive discussion with Sony support, neither my Sony BDP S-570 nor my Sony Bravia KDL40HX800 support xv color. So, I have no way of seeing the xvYCC extended color gamut on my equipment.


Extended Color Gamut in Display Devices Based on xvYCC Specification


As described above, a CRT TV based on the BT709 standard can only represent 55% of the Munsell Color Cascade (see Figure 4.1). In 2006, Sony launched BRAVIA, the world's first LCD television based on the xvYCC standard. An LCD TV with LED backlighting can represent 82% of the Munsell Color Cascade, while a Sony GxL projector with a laser light source can represent up to 97% of the colors (*3) (see Figure 4.2 and 4.3). This is indicative of the performance that can be achieved when the xvYCC standard is applied to extended-gamut display devices.

Check Figs 3.2 and 3.3 comparing BT.709 and xvYCC in the next link.

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/technol.../xvycc_01.html

Samsung Displays also support xvYCC.

xvYCC (Extended-gamut YCC) is a new color space (color range) standard for televisions, computer monitors, digital camcorders and cameras, etc. xvYCC supports up to 1.8 times more colors than the current standard.

Every piece of equipment in your string from player to AVR to Display must support xvYCC. I believe you have to turn Super-White on in the PS3. The rest of the equipment deals with it automatically.

So anyone that has a Mastered in 4K release wont see the wider range of colors available on the disk if they don't have equipment that supports the Extended -gamut YCC. Since the Ultra 4K Sony TVs support xvYCC the owners are seeing the Mastered in 4K disks in all their glory. This also explains why the Media player uses a separate HDMI connection for the AVR, since many AVRs may not support xvYCC.

xvYCC is a standard usually shown in equipment specs as xv Color

IEC 61966-2-4 Ed. 1.0 b:2006

Multimedia systems and equipment - Colour measurement and management - Part 2-4: Colour management - Extended-gamut YCC colour space for video applications - xvYCC

standard published 01/17/2006 by International Electrotechnical Commission

[Geoff D]

No, the separate HDMI is there because there's very little pass-through kit that supports HDCP 2.x. Even if someone's HDMI receiver is "4K ready" it STILL won't handle the output from the Sony server because of the HDCP revision. At least the extended colour can be ignored by whatever non-compatible devices it's being routed through, whereas HDCP 2.x is not backwards compatible with 1.x devices.

So, if someone wants 5.1 sound out of the media server into their amp then they have to use the split HDMI. Note that there's no optical output on the server because the audio on these 4K movies is 5.1 PCM, which is too much for toslink to take. There's no lossy 5.1 legacy audio on these downloads because there's no standard in place that says there must be lossy support, unlike Blu-ray.

If the PS4 does indeed carry the same 4K Unlimited download service, I hope that lossy is supported because it's only got the one HDMI...

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

No, the separate HDMI is there because there's very little pass-through kit that supports HDCP 2.x. Even if someone's HDMI receiver is "4K ready" it STILL won't handle the output from the Sony server because of the HDCP revision. At least the extended colour can be ignored by whatever non-compatible devices it's being routed through, whereas HDCP 2.x is not backwards compatible with 1.x devices.

So, if someone wants 5.1 sound out of the media server into their amp then they have to use the split HDMI. Note that there's no optical output on the server because the audio on these 4K movies is 5.1 PCM, which is too much for toslink to take. There's no lossy 5.1 legacy audio on these downloads because there's no standard in place that says there must be lossy support, unlike Blu-ray.

If the PS4 does indeed carry the same 4K Unlimited download service, I hope that lossy is supported because it's only got the one HDMI...

Do your player and avr support xv color (xvYCC). You can find it in the equipment specs. Do you own any movie in BD as well as Mastered in 4K (they are the only BDs that have xv Color)?

As I said before all equipment in the string must support xvYCC and must be connected with high speed HDMI cables.

If you do have this, I would be interested in a comparison of the BD and the MI4K BD.

Regardless of the HDCP issue, avoiding passthrough eliminates the risk that the xvYCC is not delivered to the display. I found some posts from you In another thread comparing the same movie on BD and MI4K. Is all the equipment in your chain, from player to Display supporting xvYCC?
The metadata for xvYCC on the disk will NOT pass through any equipment that does not support xvYCC

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

My bias is toward the best quality PQ available, based on my perception.

You are assuming ever title released on 4K will be stunning with their increased resolution, I wager many (most) catalog titles will not. That is why I have repeatedly stated that I will move to 4K ASAP but will be VERY selective in titles that I purchase.

I have just discovered why I was so struck by the color palette on the 4K Sony.

IMO, you are a victim of whacked out display settings, you should reserve your judgements till you can see a display that has been properly D65 calibrated.

xvYCC is very old news, Mastered in 4K BDs is old news, some comments here.

I have already posted the next improvement in color gamut will come with Rec. 2020

It is quite OK to be enthusiastic 4K, it is not OK to come here and post all this BS about how physical is in decline, streaming and downloads is the future, etc.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

(1) The post I was referring to is #282 “Overall digital revenue in the first half of the year was up more than 24% to more than $3 billion, with EST revenue up more than 50%, DEG reported, crediting the increase to convenient access to digital collections and greater availability of digital at retail."

I am still not sure of your point. No one questioned the articles that you quoted from. Steedeel had asked you how do you knowin $ how BD sales fared vs digital sales

(2)I said around 1 Billion, seems safe to say it would be over 1 B by now

by the end of the year? I would guess so, for mid Oct (Now)? probably not even close. at the end of the third quarter 2012 EST was 516.55 http://www.dvdinformation.com/pressr...L_10.26.12.pdf and there was 187.12 for the third quarter.

It was 490.62M at the end of the second quarter, you would need well over 250% growth (close to 300%) versus last years third quarter to get to over 1B by now.

(3)I said it was a critique, I did not say it was unbiased. The link was included to show the source. He effectively compared what is happening to physical disk revenue and digital revenue. I took the 4.63 to be the author's typo. Total home entertainment spending is of no interest to me, just physical (BD) vs EST.

this makes no sense what so ever. If the guy is manipulating the numbers to try and show a preposterous conclusion why would you use it at all? And how can you say you don't care about totals when you asked me to look at that second point that had nothing to do with EST and the only part that did cover BD (the total) was completely wrong?

My interest in following EST vs BD revenue going forward is that if the perception that the 4K Ultra HD download surpasses or just equals 2K BD quality, the number of people who insist on having physical media will decline and probably accelerate. Since Sony just introduced their Ultra HD service, the historical figures aren't going to reflect any impact. They are important, though, because they show how rapidly EST revenue has been growing.

are you nuts? I don't mean to be mean but it is a serious question.

1) I am a fan of 4k, but let's be honest 4K will be insignificant (In sales numbers) for years.
2) why are you assuming crappy "4k" DL that are no better then 2K BD would be the only choice? Wouldn't (like today) the person that does not care for quality use DL/streaming and the person that does care about quality pick the physical format because with the 100GB BD and(like some films) he ease of splitting it on two disks means that the physical copy can look a lot better?
3) you are back at the issue people brought up from the beginning. You discus EST growing fast. I get that 50% growth looks like a lot but it is not, it all depends on the size. To give an example a new born baby that doubles in size is not news worthy, on the other hand if an NBA player grows by 50% it would be news worthy. At the end of the first half of 2013 sales were just above 4B and EST just under 0.5B that is the market is over 8x larger then EST at .5x growth it will take a long time to cover the difference.

If Sony has its way, those who prefer physical media will be served by ‘mastered in 4K BDs’, while the rest will be content with digital.

how do you know that and who cares (I mean why assume "sony will have their way?"?

I have been interacting with owners of the Sony 4K Ultra HD TV’s and the Sony Media Server. The Sony 4K download service just started in early Sept. These owners are very enthusiastic about the quality of the True 4K downloads and rentals they are watching. I have tried to get them to provide a comparison of a True UHD 4K movie with a 2K BD. No one seems interested enough to bother buying a physical disk of the same movie to do this.
I may rent a BD of After Earth from Redbox and see if Best Buy will let me compare it to the Sony Ultra 4K demo, which has clips of After Earth. running on their 65" UHD

I call BS on this. I don't know if it is you or them, but if I am not mistaken
The Amazing Spiderman
Total Recall (2012)
The Karate Kid (2010)
Salt
Battle Los Angeles
The Other Guys
Bad Teacher
That's My Boy
Taxi Driver
The Bridge on the River Kwai

these films come on the server. All of them have been available on BD long before the 4k server came out and most (if not all) before it was announced. I don't think it makes sense to talk about them needing to run out and buy the BD. They would have already had it for any movie they were actually interested in.

Over on AVS, the last time I looked, there were 87 pages on a thread for the 4K Ultra HD Sony TVs. They are more concerned about solving issues and providing feedback on set up for their Sony TVs and Media Servers than they are about what will or will not happen to physical media.

do you blame them, I have yet to see anyone that is not a troll care. The same way iTunes has existed for well over a decade and yet CD still plays a major role in the US and is the lions share of revenue in the world movies on physical media will survive strongly compared to virtual media. Why would anyone care if they can see what they want on the format they want what some other idiot does?

Something else to watch is the content on the Sony download service. You can bet the other studios are watching this very closely. Once the initial kinks are worked out, I expect to see Sony come to some agreement on opening up the download service to other studios for content provision. Or, perhaps they will all set up a hub, where all studios provide rental and downloadable Ultra HD content.

Sony is keeping tight control during this early adopter phase. The FMP-X1 media server is really not far removed from a prototype. A few people in foreign countries actually purchased them, only to find out the download service is not available and the media server will not work in their country. Sony plans to provide the service internationally in the future, but the Media Server will be a different model.

A hack of their content security would be a major blow to this rollout.

This is useless. The media server is a patch to sell expensive 4K TVs, it is meant to quiet the person that has the $ and wants quality (or the latest gadget), if you don't get that, you are missing everything. That is also why it was rigged so that it won't work with anyone else's TV and why there are all those issues.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

IMO, it doesn't come across like that. I am (just my opinion) picking up a definite download bias from you. Maybe,it's just me.

no it is not

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

no it is not

Thought not

[Wendell R. Breland]

Normally I do not read reviews of direct view display devices (am a projector kind of guy ) but today just noticed a review of the Sony XBR-65X900A in my print copy of Home Theater Magazine, September 2013, Volume 20, No. 7. NOTE: Home Theater Magazine purchased Sound & Vision and merged the two under the Sound & Vision banner.

A link to the article here. Have not read the online version so I do not know if it is word for word with the print article. The layout is different. Some may get a chuckle from the following: