Oh noes teh sky is falling!

[blacklion]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

A good marketing campaign designed to make the consumer think they need something can easily get them to buy into it and make up for a substandard product....however this doesn't apply to blu-ray's, as we all know it is an excellent product!

SA-CD and DVD-A are excellent products

[gates70]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

A good marketing campaign designed to make the consumer think they need something can easily get them to buy into it and make up for a substandard product....however this doesn't apply to blu-ray's, as we all know it is an excellent product!

They can have the best marketing campaign they want but a lot of it has to do with word of mouth, forumns, and beleive it or not, our HT setups ! I don't know how many people up to now have come over to my place to experience Blu for the first time and are now hooked and want one. It just takes one bad thing on a forum somewhere for people to start doubting and wait to see what happens with the new technology ie the format war between HDDVD and Blu.

[blacklion]

HDMI handshake issues and firmware updates problems are certainly not helping things either. A lot of young people hear and re-tell horror stories about DRM in blu-ray and reckon they'll just keep torrenting.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by blacklion

SA-CD and DVD-A are excellent products

Yeah, it's a real shame the industry didn't give it a good push, pricing and support was poor, and few people had the hardware to gain any advantage in it over traditional CDs.

At least HDTVs are getting to the point of being standard, so everyone should have something to gain by buying in Blu-ray instead of DVD. So even if most people still only hear audio on crappy stereo, the visuals will be justifiable upgrades for them.

Originally Posted by blacklion

HDMI handshake issues and firmware updates problems are certainly not helping things either. A lot of young people hear and re-tell horror stories about DRM in blu-ray and reckon they'll just keep torrenting.

If they're already stealing movies and don't find it against their morals, NO purchased media of this kind will ever appeal to them.

This is a large reason why digital distribution won't be going anywhere. Most of the supporters are people who steal everything and never pay for movies anyway.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

This is a large reason why digital distribution won't be going anywhere. Most of the supporters are people who steal everything and never pay for movies anyway.

That's an extreme over generalization. I'll be switching to whatever digital service can match the PQ/AQ of blu-ray... the very moment that comes along (be it next year or 30 years from now,) because I want the convenience that it will offer. Having my entire catalog of titles in a database, rather than walking over to the shelves and searching through the spines of DVD/BD cases, is just much more convenient and much more in keeping with the digital age. I don't steal digital content ever. I don't even make my own back ups of titles I own because it is illegal in the US.

[gates70]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

That's an extreme over generalization. I'll be switching to whatever digital service can match the PQ/AQ of blu-ray... the very moment that comes along (be it next year or 30 years from now,) because I want the convenience that it will offer. Having my entire catalog of titles in a database, rather than walking over to the shelves and searching through the spines of DVD/BD cases, is just much more convenient and much more in keeping with the digital age. I don't steal digital content ever. I don't even make my own back ups of titles I own because it is illegal in the US.

In the hopes the hard drive doesn't crash and lose all your collection in one shot !

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by gates70

In the hopes the hard drive doesn't crash and lose all your collection in one shot !

When the time comes... there will be solutions for all those doom and gloom scenarios. I'm not one of those people that is afraid of the future.... the future is after all... inevitable.

[blacklion]

Originally Posted by gates70

In the hopes the hard drive doesn't crash and lose all your collection in one shot !

Back-up, back-up and back-up yet again...thank God for $100 1tb drives

[blacklion]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

Yeah, it's a real shame the industry didn't give it a good push, pricing and support was poor, and few people had the hardware to gain any advantage in it over traditional CDs.

At least HDTVs are getting to the point of being standard, so everyone should have something to gain by buying in Blu-ray instead of DVD. So even if most people still only hear audio on crappy stereo, the visuals will be justifiable upgrades for them.

Somehow, I don't think the zillions of kids growing up on mp3, iPod, youtube etc will ever step up to HD audio or video especially on a physical disc. A whole generation is getting used to 'gud enuf' music and video through crappy headphones and tiny screens. It wasn't just the lack of industry support and marketing; the emergence of mp3 roughly at about the same time was a major part of the premature death of SA-CD and DVD-A and the industry responded too little, too late. I can easily see blu-ray going the way of SA-CD and DVD-A if the studios don't come to their senses.The time is now if blu-ray is to go mainstream, before the next big thing rolls in.

If they're already stealing movies and don't find it against their morals, NO purchased media of this kind will ever appeal to them.

This is a large reason why digital distribution won't be going anywhere. Most of the supporters are people who steal everything and never pay for movies anyway.

But why do I have to get punished for their misdeeds with DRM that gives me hassles just to play a movie I bought on a BD player that I also bought? DRM is a big joke for the teenagers and college kids that are ripping BDs and making them available on the torrent sites. Right now, the industry is punishing the honest for the crimes of the dishonest. We don't strip-search people going into a bank or a gas station just because we know violent robberies happen at those locations routinely.

Its us the legit buyers of HD equipment and BD discs who get punished with HDCP that will not let us use component cable that works 99.9% of the time but forces us to use crappy HDMI that never works consistently. I don't understand a business model that relies on pissing off your existing customers and scaring away potential customers.

Installing DRM on BDs is a complete waste of time and an annoyance to legit customers. All those engineering majors have all the time on their hands and access to super-computers and free broadband to devise ways of defeating any form of DRM. Also I just ABSOLUTELY freakin hate to be forced to watch that effed-up FBI warning and trailers before I can watch a movie that I paid for with my hard earned money. If I want to watch ads, I'll watch TV.

There's also the human element. Once the master copies of any movie is released to the theaters, you can bet there'll be a copy on a plane to Shanghai or Hong Kong that very same night. Within weeks, bootleg DVDs with no DRM are available and will play via HDMI because the copy protection has been ripped out. How long before people figure its just easier and cheaper to buy bootleg because you have full assurance that it'll play without any firmware updates since the DRM is ripped out?

[Sponge-worthy]

All the Blus that I have attempted to play on my HDMI-enabled setup have played just fine. In that regard, I don't feel that I am being 'punished' by DRM.

[blacklion]

Originally Posted by ryan69969

All the Blus that I have attempted to play on my HDMI-enabled setup have played just fine. In that regard, I don't feel that I am being 'punished' by DRM.

Good for you! I had problems playing BDs on my PS3 phat which only went away after a firmware update. I've also has problems connecting a Pioneer BD player to the TV via a receiver with an HDMI cable - v1.3 made by Mediabridge and purchased from amazon.com. But the same cable worked fine connected from a Pioneer DVD player direct to the TV. So yes, I've been punished by DRM.

[krazeyeyez]

Originally Posted by blacklion

Good for you! I had problems playing BDs on my PS3 phat which only went away after a firmware update. I've also has problems connecting a Pioneer BD player to the TV via a receiver with an HDMI cable - v1.3 made by Mediabridge and purchased from amazon.com. But the same cable worked fine connected from a Pioneer DVD player direct to the TV. So yes, I've been punished by DRM.

Sony is NEVER behind on firmware updates, so i do not see your problem? I have only hit one movie i had to update firmware on and sure enough, it was out, i updated, all worked well.

I don't understand the argument against drm or whatever, and i really don't see the argument against HDMI which i LOVE, i do see the complaint about limiting analog since many of my friends either don't have HD tv's yet, or do but old models with no hdmi (also in the example case of 1 hdmi input that is broke), but in most these cases limiting the output would not effect picture.

I have yet to experience any of the HDMI problems you are explaining, except for a bunk port on my receiver which after verifying as you did it was not the cord by hooking it up to the tv, i hooked it up to an alt port in my receiver and it worked just fine.

AS for torrent people lol, 98% of the people i know fall into that category and i fully agree with whoever already said that those people would never buy anything anyways, BD's could be downloadable, no copy protection, etc... etc... and if they so much as charge a dollar, those people will just rip it off the net. I only see drm hurting those people and o well.

@robinandtami - agree their are exceptions but most the people already downloading media etc... are not legit, i do know people that fall into your category although i am not one, i like cases and physical media, i think most the younglings growing up today have become so accustomed to FREE media on the net as the standard they will never pay for it, so the market would truly be niche.

[trekdude]

Blu-ray has two major problems.
1. Compared to DVD movie prices, Blu-ray movies are expensive. Many people I talk to don't think the benefit of BR is worth paying $6-$10 more per movie.

2. Many people - regular people, not people like us who visit blu-ray forums - don't see a huge difference in quality. If they do see a difference they would rather spend their money on other things. The extra cost for a player or movie isn't worth it to them. That's why many people have expensive HDTVs and don't get HD cable. To them the extra cost is not worth it.

Digital downloads
For many people - not people like us - the reduced quality of digital downloads is fine. The audio on my ipod isn't as good as a CD, but I still listen to it. The same is true for lots of people with movies.

DVD had an advantage
DVDs and Blu-ray discs look the same to the regular guy or woman. A DVD looks much different than a VHS tape so it was easier for the regular person in a wal-mart or target to understand the difference.

Blu-ray will continue to expand, but so will digital downloads. For people like my wife who don't care about audio and video quality and want easy access then digital downloads will be an attractive option.

In the end it probably won't be one or the other. People will have options. Price drops for movies and players will help too.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by trekdude

That's why many people have expensive HDTVs and don't get HD cable. To them the extra cost is not worth it.

That's true. I know a lot of people who have HDTV's and don't have a single HD source hooked up to them. They just wanted the sexy look of the flat tv in their house, and could care less about the quality of the picture that shows up on them.

[blacklion]

Originally Posted by krazeyeyez

Sony is NEVER behind on firmware updates, so i do not see your problem? I have only hit one movie i had to update firmware on and sure enough, it was out, i updated, all worked well.

I don't understand the argument against drm or whatever, and i really don't see the argument against HDMI which i LOVE, i do see the complaint about limiting analog since many of my friends either don't have HD tv's yet, or do but old models with no hdmi (also in the example case of 1 hdmi input that is broke), but in most these cases limiting the output would not effect picture.

I have yet to experience any of the HDMI problems you are explaining, except for a bunk port on my receiver which after verifying as you did it was not the cord by hooking it up to the tv, i hooked it up to an alt port in my receiver and it worked just fine.

AS for torrent people lol, 98% of the people i know fall into that category and i fully agree with whoever already said that those people would never buy anything anyways, BD's could be downloadable, no copy protection, etc... etc... and if they so much as charge a dollar, those people will just rip it off the net. I only see drm hurting those people and o well.

@robinandtami - agree their are exceptions but most the people already downloading media etc... are not legit, i do know people that fall into your category although i am not one, i like cases and physical media, i think most the younglings growing up today have become so accustomed to FREE media on the net as the standard they will never pay for it, so the market would truly be niche.

Good for you that you've never had any problems with DRM and you love HDMI! I have and I don't. How about the studios respect my freedom of choice in the use of cables to hook up my HD set-up?

In my experience and that of people I know, the HDMI handshake problem is most prevalent with connecting HD sources thru AV receivers especially with DVR boxes and some models of BD players. HDMI just never works consistently unlike component cable. Sometimes, its the HDMI port that's bad or outdated (v1.2 or 1.1) or its the cable that's bad or v1.2. Its often completely luck of the draw. Seems to me that HDMI technology was rushed into the market incomplete and the constant changes to the standard worsen the problem.

Despite DRM and HDMI, BD movies are still being pirated willy-nilly - so what's the point pissing people off with an copy protection technology that was rushed to market incomplete? So what's the point then installing the DRM that makes discs take 30-40 seconds to load up and then force me to watch stupid FBI warnings and trailers before I can get to the movie?

No matter what form of DRM is invented or implemented, there will always be kids and pirates to defeat it and rip the movies.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

I don't even make my own back ups of titles I own because it is illegal in the US.

It is not illegal to make your own backup in the U.S. as long as the backup is stored and not used unless the primary copy is destroyed. The copyright law permits any consumer to make a backup copy for their personal use (as a backup).

[krazeyeyez]

Originally Posted by blacklion

No matter what form of DRM is invented or implemented, there will always be kids and pirates to defeat it and rip the movies.

I don't think these companies actually believe that stuff will STOP piracy, i think it is intended to help make it more difficult and making those people "jump through hoops" in order to do it. It is pretty obvious in the computer world any wall can be broken, and hole exploited, but the harder it becomes the less likely every 12 year old kid out there is gonna be ripping like they do with dvd.

I have never heard of anyone who had as much trouble as you seem to have had from their HDMI's, i have heard of handshake issues, and i understand in the beginning HDMI had a variety of specs, but as far as i know this has been pretty much resolved, and in the cases they have not, a firmware update is usually in order for one component or both. Please do not respond with a good for you, i am not saying this is the standard just trying to understand. I have some very tech handicapped friends who actually manage to do just fine with hdmi.

Now this i am not sure about considering the post about limiting analog, but is component capable of carrying a 1080p signal, because if it can't i don't understand why you would want to go that route anyways.

[krazeyeyez]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

It is not illegal to make your own backup in the U.S. as long as the backup is stored and not used unless the primary copy is destroyed. The copyright law permits any consumer to make a backup copy for their personal use (as a backup).

This is news to me because you have to remove copyright type stuff to do it, i will definitely have to look into this, but it was my understanding that you couldn't do this, and i wish you could, so i could actually seek out advice on how to do it, since i have purchased multiple seasons of many tv shows to replace a single disc, and usually a single episode for some extreme cash.

[blacklion]

Originally Posted by krazeyeyez

I don't think these companies actually believe that stuff will STOP piracy, i think it is intended to help make it more difficult and making those people "jump through hoops" in order to do it. It is pretty obvious in the computer world any wall can be broken, and hole exploited, but the harder it becomes the less likely every 12 year old kid out there is gonna be ripping like they do with dvd.

I have never heard of anyone who had as much trouble as you seem to have had from their HDMI's, i have heard of handshake issues, and i understand in the beginning HDMI had a variety of specs, but as far as i know this has been pretty much resolved, and in the cases they have not, a firmware update is usually in order for one component or both. Please do not respond with a good for you, i am not saying this is the standard just trying to understand. I have some very tech handicapped friends who actually manage to do just fine with hdmi.

Now this i am not sure about considering the post about limiting analog, but is component capable of carrying a 1080p signal, because if it can't i don't understand why you would want to go that route anyways.

My understanding is that component cable can indeed carry 1080p but the BD association's standards for CE manufacturers specifies that native 1080p output is restricted to HDMI only and that upscaling to 1080p is also via HDMI only. There are quite a number of custom/professional installers and AV experts who say this. Take a look at these sites -

Let's get this myth out of the way - component video cable can pass 1080p and even higher video 100 percent of the time with no failures, no handshake issues and no EDID confusion. However, with no copy protection, Hollywood studios are scared that consumers will steal movies. The next time you are in Shanghai, check on any street corner to see if the latest blockbusters from that week aren't for sale, often in HD. The reality is that, for every digital measure, there is a digital countermeasure. With HDMI, we have a studio-friendly format that is an installer and consumer
nightmare.

Top AV installers and integrators to this day absolutely hate HDMI. The one-cable solution should have made their lives exponentially easier, but in reality, the copy-protected and slow format is often at the heart of compatibility issues that makes running a whole-home-automation system on Windows Vista seem perfectly reasonable.

http://hometheaterreview.com/hdmi-14...heater-market/

Analog component video cables can pass 2K and 4K video content but don't have copy protection so Hollywood understandably says no to that idea, although there are already enough copies of top grossing films selling on the streets of Beijing. Most installers would make more money and have fewer service calls if they could connect via analog component cable or if they could use HDMI without the HDCP copy protection.

http://hometheaterreview.com/what-if...tually-worked/

Look at this article also on component vs HDMI -
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articl...icomponent.htm


There are allegations that when HDMI was launched, the Hollywood studios put out so much smoke-and-mirrors that component cable cannot carry 1080p and that you positively have to use HDMI to get 1080p. Whereas the truth is that they were promoting HDMI primarily because of HDCP which cannot be implemented over component. If these allegations are true, these are the sort of things that disillusion young people and entrench distrust.


Please don't get me wrong. I've only had two (2) DRM/HDMI/firmware issues since I began investing in BD last year. First was with my PS3 and then the HDMI cable that wouldn't work with a BD player when routed through a receiver but worked perfectly with an upscaling DVD player when connected direct to the TV. Its just those two instances and firmware updates or switching the cable routing solved the problems. BTW, all my HDMI cables are Belkin or Mediabridge 1.3 purchased from amazon except those that came with my OPPO machines. I never had those problems when I used component cables. These issues were irritating and made me spend extra money. One reason why I spent an extra $100 to get a Pioneer 1019 receiver instead of a 919 was as a back-up measure for HDMI handshake issues; the 1019 can upscale input via component to 1080p and output via HDMI to the TV.

I love BD. I love the superb PQ and AQ that I get from my BD players and PS3s with my AV receiver and 5:1 surround system. I've invested in this technology and I'm loving what I'm getting. I wish more people would discover and share the joys of BD. But I'm concerned that the greed and lack of foresight of the studios and the BD association will result in BD going the way of SA-CD and DVD-A sooner that it would have to when digital downloads prevail.

I think BD has a chance of going and remaining mainstream for another 10-15 years if the studios get their act right but if their greed prevails, BD will remain a niche product for audiophiles while DVD remains dominant until digital downloads take over. Its not the end of the world if that happens but it would be really unfortunate.

[krazeyeyez]

Well assuming hdmi issues remain the exception rather then the norm, they will still help promote the format and HD in general since we all know J6P, believes that more money = more quality (monster cable), and less is more (1 cable as opposed to many, or 1 ipod opposed to many cd's). They don't investigate these things, and in most cases couldn't wrap their heads around it even if they did, to them HDMI/USB is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I agree that piracy is going strong, i see DVDrips on par with DVD all the time, but i have yet to see one person i know get a BD quality rip no matter how many times they have tried, and in the case of my best friends room mate he has really been trying for a long time to no avail (he thinks i am nuts for still buying cd's let alone BD and i quote "wants to show me" lol) if only he knew!