Oh noes teh sky is falling!

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by Astrakan

Exactly. Which is why I personally believe in a future where people will be able to buy devices, not unlike PVRs in their design and functionality, that will connect to download services like Netflix or Amazon. It will then be simple and straightforward enough for the average user.

If downloads don't graduate from using the current complex delivery methods they definitely won't be the next big thing. Which is why the powers that be won't let it stop at that.

KM

I am not sure if this service is available everywhere, maybe not but here in Montreal Videotron, a cable provider offer movies, TV series to be ordered from your DVR or cable box and a lot of it is old stuff, older movies, old TV series. Some of it is actualy free as well. You can get new movies also for a price, I find them rather high so I never bother but it's been around for a while so I am thinking people must be using it somehow.

[john_1958]

what crazy person wants downloads

[brettallica]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

This is exactly what I have been saying for a long time. The digital age is coming; exactly when.... we don't know yet, but I feel it's very likely to be the next big thing after blu-ray. I think that if Blu-Ray wants to survive longer into the digital era, it should go ahead now and provide the advanced features and convenience that the digital era will bring with it. This will keep many people from moving on to the digital formats as soon as they come along.

It would be so easy to do right now, today. And it could be done in a way that the anyone who already had enough techno knowledge to put their blu-ray player on their home network could surely use. A firmware update to network capable players to allow ripping movies to a networked storage drive would be step one. It could be an option enabled through the service menu, so that when a disc is inserted into the BD drive, the user will be asked if they would like to play from disc or copy to storage. Those who are not interested would just turn this option off and automatically play from disc. The addition of a library app to sort organize the moves and show the covers and descriptions would make it complete.

This would be a great way to

1. give people who desire the digital convenience that they want now
2. bring more people to blu-ray when they see this new way of delivering content
3. hold on to people after the digital era comes of age.

I would like to develop this product (and its related applications) with you. When do we get started?

I envision a slightly more elaborate setup, although the same in principle and overall end result. Ultimately, I believe the rip and store would best be done within an all-encompassing monster computer, as sending such a large amount of data over a network connection (even on gigabit routers and switches) would scare me.

[KrugStillo]

Sadly, where I currently live on the east coast (Massachussetts) people still use VCR's and Vinyl is actually a very big collector market. Yes when I lived in Chicago, IL for 6 years people were more up on the newer tech but not in the outskirts of this country. I worked with a guy who wouldn't get cable because he didn't mind just watching the local stations. When the digital changover happened he bought a converter box and basically uses it as an antenna to get his local channels. Still no cable, now do you think this guy is gonna buy a computer and digitally download his content? No way and he is not that old. Granted the youth of america is good with portable downloading devices but when they get old enough to care they will want some sort of theater or stereo setup for thier homes and that's when they will have to decide if it's better to own physical media or have a Hard Drive that can hold it. Let's just put it this way if a major disaster happens I can plug my home theater into a gas powered generator and still watch my movies without any internet or otherwise connection. So I think that kind of says it all. Plus Harddrives can be wiped, even the worst looking disc may still play.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by KrugStillo

now do you think this guy is gonna buy a computer and digitally download his content?

Nope.... and I don't think he's going to get a blu-ray player either

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by brettallica

I would like to develop this product (and its related applications) with you. When do we get started?

I envision a slightly more elaborate setup, although the same in principle and overall end result. Ultimately, I believe the rip and store would best be done within an all-encompassing monster computer, as sending such a large amount of data over a network connection (even on gigabit routers and switches) would scare me.

It could be done over a standard ethernet connection or wireless N. Wireless G could handle 1080P video and DD audio, but it would probably be better to use N for lossless audio. Some standalone BD players would probably take a few hours to rip a full quality copy, but the PS3 with it's cell processor should be able to easily rip a full quality copy while you watch it the first time and be done before the film is over.

[brettallica]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

It could be done over a standard ethernet connection or wireless N. Wireless G could handle 1080P video and DD audio, but it would probably be better to use N for lossless audio. Some standalone BD players would probably take a few hours to rip a full quality copy, but the PS3 with it's cell processor should be able to easily rip a full quality copy while you watch it the first time and be done before the film is over.

Even though I just quoted you, I won't quote you on that.

Would you not be freaked out about the data copying in such a configuration? I wouldn't even think about doing that wirelessly. That would be totally cool if you could rip, watch, and store all in one step. It definitely would make the whole process a ton easier, especially for less than tech savvy people.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by brettallica

Even though I just quoted you, I won't quote you on that.

Would you not be freaked out about the data copying in such a configuration? I wouldn't even think about doing that wirelessly. That would be totally cool if you could rip, watch, and store all in one step. It definitely would make the whole process a ton easier, especially for less than tech savvy people.

I'm not sure why I should be freaked out? Can you elaborate?

[brettallica]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

I'm not sure why I should be freaked out? Can you elaborate?

I'm just saying...writing all that data. So you'd be copying from the Blu-ray player, to your media server, over the network. That would freak me out. I would fear data loss/corruption/etc, especially when dealing with files of such a large size, like 50GB. Do you follow what I'm saying? It could be that I misunderstood the way your system is going to work, too.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by brettallica

I'm just saying...writing all that data. So you'd be copying from the Blu-ray player, to your media server, over the network. That would freak me out. I would fear data loss/corruption/etc, especially when dealing with files of such a large size, like 50GB. Do you follow what I'm saying? It could be that I misunderstood the way your system is going to work, too.

I think I see what you are saying. It wouldn't be an issue for a player with an onboard HDD. A player without one would need a USB stick or memory card to cache the data between the rip and transmission to the storage drive; but as long as you had a way to cache as you go, corruption should not be an issue.

[brettallica]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

I think I see what you are saying. It wouldn't be an issue for a player with an onboard HDD. A player without one would need a USB stick or memory card to cache the data between the rip and transmission to the storage drive; but as long as you had a way to cache as you go, corruption should not be an issue.

OK. I've got you now. So your Blu-ray player would have a hard drive built into it...ideally anyway. That's more like what I was saying earlier, about having an all-encompassing computer (with tons of storage space) that will do the rip and play the Blus. I wouldn't be comfortable passing that kind of volume over a network connection, even at gigabit speed.

Time to collaborate and build a prototype.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by brettallica

OK. I've got you now. So your Blu-ray player would have a hard drive built into it...ideally anyway. That's more like what I was saying earlier, about having an all-encompassing computer (with tons of storage space) that will do the rip and play the Blus. I wouldn't be comfortable passing that kind of volume over a network connection, even at gigabit speed.

Time to collaborate and build a prototype.

Well technically you'd only need to have enough storage space to cache a little ahead of yourself as you go... not cache the entire movie's worth of data. Also... a true movie collector would need a dedicated multi-drive media server to hold a good sized collection. For the casual collector, an external USB drive could fit the bill if they really didn't want to pass it over the network. But looking ahead to the bigger picture, if you sent the data to a networked media server, you could then watch your movies on any licensed player in the house assuming the DRM could be worked out of course.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Marquoz

2a) $200 for a 1TB external drive which will hold around about 200 movies. So storage on an external drive for ease of portability is about $1 per movie. That's not too much of an added cost. Not much point in having it on a 50GB flash drive, that seems a very inefficient way to store movies.

you missed the point, he said you would go to the store, and buy "boxed" movies with covers and stuff (just like disks now) but on flash media. You can't go to a store and buy 200 movies (or to any one that can calculate 20) on one drive.

[Marquoz]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

you missed the point, he said you would go to the store, and buy "boxed" movies with covers and stuff (just like disks now) but on flash media. You can't go to a store and buy 200 movies (or to any one that can calculate 20) on one drive.

Oh crap, I don't know why I added the extra 0. I did 2 for 100 gig, 20 for 1000 gig, and 200 for 1 TB. I wish hard drives worked like that!

I don't see why an external drive wouldn't be able to work in the place of a flash drive though, if it's a USB input it should be able to work the same, unless the device stores a bunch of flash drives internally it spits out? Ideally it would have USB and maybe SD slots for differing types of storage media.

[Marquoz]

Originally Posted by brettallica

I'm just saying...writing all that data. So you'd be copying from the Blu-ray player, to your media server, over the network. That would freak me out. I would fear data loss/corruption/etc, especially when dealing with files of such a large size, like 50GB. Do you follow what I'm saying? It could be that I misunderstood the way your system is going to work, too.

I don't think there would be that much of a problems sending that over a wireless network. I've uploaded and downloaded multiple gig programs before and never had an issue. There is error checking during the download process and if there's an error that packet is resent. Same thing with dropped packets. If the network has a strong enough signal, there won't be any issues. Of course if somebody was going to be doing that on a regular basis, chances are good they would have a hardwired network running to the system for the transfers.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by krazeyeyez

your correct my comparison of views of tech from a few years ago or less are exactly like your predictions taken from 1950 sci-fi fiction LMAO. I would think you could do better

not at all, like them you refuse to take a realistic look at how tech evolves and what people want.

based on what may i ask? digital downloads of music is becoming much wider spread with the amount of services offering content as well as varying degree's of cost and features. Now most piracy is not gunning for entire albums, but those money maker hits, ready to be uploaded at the push of a button, YET they do it. If you don't see room for studios to make a profitable model you are looking at this as RIGHT NOW when the discussion is a few years down the road or more.

and yet even though there are many benefits to DL music (buy a single instead of an album, you will move it to your portable, so why add an extra step, files are extremely small, you want your music to be portable....) CD still owns more then 50% of the market after 10 years. While movies don't have any benefits from going digital (I want the whole movie, a movie is 1.5+ hours, you don't need your whole library at a time, unless you are a kid portability is not needed- you can't jog or rive and watch at the same time....)


but yet people bring music as an example of the death of hard media. Now don't get me wrong, if we add pirating then DL most likely wins but pirated content does not put money in the content owners pocket and so they won't be influenced by it.

When a new format comes out you transfer, after all these are digital files, your argument here is faulty because you ask as if suddenly all your movies won't play anymore, hmmmm, hard media anyone?

not at all, you miss the point. Maybe you don't buy movies, but I have several hundreds VHS, several thousands DVDs and several hundreds BDs. I don't care about obsolete formats, my VHS tapes have long been in a box and I started boxing my DVDs. Yes when one says "just transfer them" it sounds easy. But let's take a simple example, I most likely have way more 20-25 TB of content on BD right now and many have much more. How long will it take if this content was on my HDDs to transfer it to an other HDD on an other device? What if it is not a new player/format/profile, but a dead HDD and you can and need to DL it from the “provider” again? Yes if someone does not buy movies then just transfer it makes sense but for anyone with a collection, any one that upgrades often…. it would be a real chore.

But let's also look at the other side, if copying from one device to an other is easy, what is to stop someone from making a copy from their device to the device of their friends?

How long will backwards compatibility last mr. 60's sci-fi, we gonna have 32 different laser lens in one massive unit.

I don't know, as long as it is disks for ever, if it is something else then I doubt they will make them backwards compatible, then again there where DVD/VHS combos and there is a BD/VHS combo so who knows. The point is not something more then one generation, but for instance when my nieces and nephews are visiting sometimes they want to see something they saw before on DVD which is not yet available on BD. Why do you think DVD combos came out, people that bought them could have bought a VHS and a separate DVD player, but people don't like to have more devices then they really need (that is why they also build TVs with DVD players built in). If the guy buys a new digital player either because his old one broke, or he wants something better or features his old one did not have, why would he keep two connected to his TV and not want to "use" his old movies with the new one?

As for how long it would take to download, yeah i got 300+blu's now and damn near a 1000 dvd's with all the tv series i bought into. But you are also looking at this as a right now thing. My internet service has jumped from less the 8mbps to 20mbps in less then a year. How fast will it be two years from now?

if you are talking about your whole collection 300*50= 15TB (and I guess your collection is still growing)
@ 20mbps that would be 70 days at top speed,
@ 100mbps that would be 15 days at top speed,
@ 200mbps that would be a week

on the other hand if you mean a movie, for a BD50
@ 20mbps that would be 6h at top speed,
@ 100mbps over an hour


the question is not when the guy that now pays a fortune for internet and has 20 or 50 or 100 mbps or 200mbps (as soon available in Japan) but when will most people have that? do you know that less then 25% of the world population has access to the internet and it is a (many believe impossible) dream that by 2015 we would be at 50%? do you know that the latest US stats (2008) ~20% of housholds did not have access to the internet? did you know of the people with "high speed" (as defined by the US government) many 45% had the lowest tier defined as between 200kbps and 2.5mbps? Do you think none of these people watch/have movies or that all of these people will have much more the 20 or 100mbps in a time frame that does not make your comments seem like someone in the 0’s talking about the end of the last century?

As someone who is obviously an adopter of new tech you seem mighty hard pressed to notice how fast tech is advancing these days.

no, I worked in the field for many years and have good contacts to people in the field I am just looking at what is realistic instead of saying stupid things just because I have higher tier internet BW and wondering what can I do with it and thinking everyone else is in the same boat.

New forms of lossless compression could make transferring blu-ray size files no problem at all.

obviously you know nothing about compression

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Marquoz

Oh crap, I don't know why I added the extra 0. I did 2 for 100 gig, 20 for 1000 gig, and 200 for 1 TB. I wish hard drives worked like that!

no problem, it happens.

I don't see why an external drive wouldn't be able to work in the place of a flash drive though, if it's a USB input it should be able to work the same, unless the device stores a bunch of flash drives internally it spits out? Ideally it would have USB and maybe SD slots for differing types of storage media.

because most movies are sold as singles, some are also available in box sets like Planet of the apes which had 5 or ST:TOS collection which had 6. But very few are sold in more then 10 so talking about TB drives is a bit useless for shopping. Like most people trying to shove DL on everyone what is said does not make much sence because it tends to be reactionary, but if I understand him correctly, his model is that you can either buy the DL direct to home or you buy it on a stick and use it (like a BD) or copy to server(like DC). My guess he was going with Toshibas insane plan that did not work, where at the store they have blank flash drives and the store copies the data to it as well as prints a label and packaging, so that it looks like packaged media but is made on the fly. It was DVD quality, but it did not work (flash is much much much more expensive then disks, people in the test markets did not like being forced to wait for the transfer when they could just pick up the DVD and walk out in a minute)

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Marquoz

I don't think there would be that much of a problems sending that over a wireless network. I've uploaded and downloaded multiple gig programs before and never had an issue. There is error checking during the download process and if there's an error that packet is resent. Same thing with dropped packets. If the network has a strong enough signal, there won't be any issues. Of course if somebody was going to be doing that on a regular basis, chances are good they would have a hardwired network running to the system for the transfers.

I think his point was that if you are streaming it needs to be real time. All that error correction and resending missing packets has a heavy overhead. That is why he did not have an issue with none live transfer or Ethernet.

[krazeyeyez]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I think his point was that if you are streaming it needs to be real time. All that error correction and resending missing packets has a heavy overhead. That is why he did not have an issue with none live transfer or Ethernet.

If you are refering to me, my real point was that people who quickly dismiss downloads/streaming as no where in sight are misguided. I can fully see this taking a strong market share in the world and not taking 20 years to develop into a viable option. This also does not mean hard media disappears entirely but that it coexists with a market share of potential people that are quite a bit larger then i think you are willing to admit.

Just for the record since i saw you say it again, i in no way said you would go to a BM store like best buy and buy flash drives instead of discs lol as that would be stupid, what i meant was that tech advances and price falls at a fast pace these days, and it is not to hard to in vision downloads as simply a distribution service and from their the choices are up to you, so that those who do want something tangible on a shelf could still have flashsticks or data holders of some kind or even a disc itself, if keeping that collection on the shelf is so important. Hell i am sure customizable options for printable inserts would go over pretty well with the crowd on this site.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by krazeyeyez

If you are refering to me, my real point was that people who quickly dismiss downloads/streaming as no where in sight are misguided. I can fully see this taking a strong market share in the world and not taking 20 years to develop into a viable option. This also does not mean hard media disappears entirely but that it coexists with a market share of potential people that are quite a bit larger then i think you are willing to admit.

NO, the world does not revolve around you
R&T talked about streaming a BD while watching it to a home server over wi-fi. brettallica he would be nervous doing that over wi-fi, Marquoz who I quoted said there is no issue DL large files because there is error correction and tools to help with such matters. That is why I quoted Marquoz and I said that the issue was not the filke size but the tasks at hand (i.e. copying the data to the server while streaming to a device and watching the movie at the same time.

Just for the record since i saw you say it again, i in no way said you would go to a BM store like best buy and buy flash drives instead of discs lol as that would be stupid, what i meant was that tech advances and price falls at a fast pace these days, and it is not to hard to in vision downloads as simply a distribution service and from their the choices are up to you, so that those who do want something tangible on a shelf could still have flashsticks or data holders of some kind or even a disc itself, if keeping that collection on the shelf is so important. Hell i am sure customizable options for printable inserts would go over pretty well with the crowd on this site.

it might be what you meant, but not what you said,

Originally Posted by krazeyeyez

Only instead of a DISC you have a flash stick.

on the other hand your new post shows a total lack of understanding, do you think any collector buys for the sake of having useless trinkets taking up space? It is the benefits of ownership that we like (and if you have 300+ BDs then you should understand). It is the fact that unless my house burns down, chances are my collection is safe (let’s face it, even if someone brakes in they might steel equipment but they won’t spend hours putting my movies in a box to take them with them), it is the fact that I can see what I want when I want. How many times did you go to the rental place and “there is no more copies of that movie because it is old and no one rents it and shelf space is needed” or you wish a movie would be made available (like song of the south which is not PC enough for Disney to release it on DVD or BD) it is about my nephew coming over and asking “can I borrow Scooby Doo: the mystery begins” and being able to say yes. It is all about having complete control and watching what you want when you want and making sure it is safe when you are not watching it. Now I know you will say when you DL to own how is it different? Tell me what legal service that exists now lets me legally back up my movies, lets me lend them out, what guaranty do I have films won’t be “dropped” and could be ported as tech evolves so I can keep all the movies I bought even if I don't ever watch them again?