Oh noes teh sky is falling!

[krazeyeyez]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

Yes, like I said PPV is limited to new releases (then again those are the most popular). But let me ask you this forget your fanatic love of Netflix for one second and answer me this. PPV existed long before Netflix and Redbox. So let’s go back to those early years where the choices for a rental of the top 30 new releases where PPV and the rental store. Why didn’t everyone just watch the PPV but they went to the corner rental place and rent those same new movies? Ifd people where as lazy as you think then rental places would have dropped new releases a long time ago.

Nothing exists in a vacuum, many factors play a role on whether someone decided to go to a video store, or use ppv.... i still go to Blockbuster even with their insane prices, because i like the suggestions and discussions that arise with the people that work there, redbox would be cheaper but their is an added value for me of a personal experience. PPV to a cable box, is a far cry from the freedom and capabilities that a disc gave you at that time. Now netflix matches that functionality of a disc.

Now i am not one of the extremists that say blu-ray is gonna die because of streaming, the same as i don't think any limitations of internet bandwidth will stop the potential of these new enterprises. Things can be upgraded and will, if you think with the advent of smart phones, and laptops, and tvs with built in streaming and more and more streaming movie and music services cropping up every day... that the internet rapture of sorts will be coming soon i think you are mistaken. I doubt one guy on an internet forum knows more about the infrastructure of these new models then the corporations themselves.

As i see it streaming and blu-ray will co exist, i just don't ever see blu-ray entering the level that dvd did.... for many many people streaming will be a better option supplemented by physical media, for those like me streaming will be the supplement and physical media will be the main source of entertainment. Heck even blu-ray fanatics must think so, just skim the blu-ray player section of this forum alone, and see how many people want a player with wifi for netflix or some other service and its at the top of their feature priorities. Its a viable and great new advancement for movie fans, and it sucks but just like gamers, and die hard reds, those that put themselves in the "fanboy" category are really gonna miss out.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

Yes, like I said PPV is limited to new releases (then again those are the most popular). But let me ask you this forget your fanatic love of Netflix for one second and answer me this. PPV existed long before Netflix and Redbox. So let’s go back to those early years where the choices for a rental of the top 30 new releases where PPV and the rental store. Why didn’t everyone just watch the PPV but they went to the corner rental place and rent those same new movies? Ifd people where as lazy as you think then rental places would have dropped new releases a long time ago.

They didn't have cable? They were already at the grocery store? Personal preference? Apparently enough people DID choose PPV.... seeing as it's still around and all.

You seem to have an all or nothing attitude. It's not like the theater, blu-rays, dvd's, streaming, PPV, and cable/satellite channels can not ALL be a part of someone's total movie enjoyment package.... and for most of us, probably even you, that is exactly the case.

FYI... I wasn't comparing streaming music to streaming movies. The point I was making is that the internet is huge.... and for any ONE site to be using 20% of it at any given time is just huge and DOES SHOW GROWTH; even if the millions of others on the net at that time were just checking email and web browsing, it's still a feat. And yes..... most businesses would be QUITE happy with 15% annual growth. I don't see way you choose to classify that as "really slow."

As much as you seem to think I have a bias towards streaming (I don't... as I stated in my fist post in my thread MOST of my movie watching is still done on blu-ray) your statements make it seem as though you have a strong bias against it. I don't understand that, as it is simply another choice.... and more choice is ALWAYS better for the consumer.


PS
http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/09/i...iness-in-2010/

While much of the news lately has surrounded subscription internet movie and TV services the video on-demand market was up nearly 40% last year and is expected to keep growing. According to stats from IHS Screen Digest, video revenue for the Apple iTunes store grew 60 percent last year, but saw its overall market share shrink from 74.4 to 64.5 percent. This is mostly explained as a side affect of the Kinect driving up Microsoft Xbox 360 sales at the end of last year and introducing its Zune store to a new market of families looking for digital entertainment.The up and comer to watch for 2011 appears to be the Wal-mart/Vudu combo, currently fourth in line behind Sony but poised to grow by showing up on more devices and increasing its promotional efforts. Of course, as NewTeeVee points out, the ultimate wild card in all of this is the launch of Ultraviolet buy-once/watch-anywhere DRM later this year (without support from Apple or Disney) and the effect it could have by causing consumers to see digital downloads as a viable option instead of the fragmented mess they are now -- good luck with that.

[victorvondoom88]

Originally Posted by Blu-ray Neo

Blu-ray will be around for years to come. The argument that Blu-ray will fall to streaming is just downright moronic. Tell that to the tens of millions of people that purchased 1080p HDTV's, PS3's, and other BD players. Aside from that fact, there are literally millions of people that do NOT have access to broadband internet and the internet companies don't really have the tech just yet to stream BD quality audio/video.

Ding,Ding,Ding We have a winner!

[victorvondoom88]

Oh and to the Op why are you worried for your collection if the day ever comes where blu-ray is obsolete will your collection cease to exist? Be rendered unplayable or simply disintegrate before your very eyes?

I'm sure there are people still enjoying there HD-DVD,VHS,Betamax,Cassette tape collections. I still have 20-30 Laser Discs they still worked last time I checked.

[krazeyeyez]

well.... i am pretty sure they are not their yet on the audio side of things, but i am pretty sure their are quite a few companies now streaming full 1080p

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by krazeyeyez

well.... i am pretty sure they are not their yet on the audio side of things, but i am pretty sure their are quite a few companies now streaming full 1080p

My Internet connection is 2mbps at best. To match Blu-ray's video capabilities, I would need over 36mbps consistently. Many in the US have no Internet at all, and of those that do, a connection similar or worse than mine is typical.

So basically, we need to overcome a few things:

#1: Not everyone has Internet connections.
#2: Most people who do have a connection need it to be over 18 times faster to best current physical media (ignoring the fact that physical media may advance even further in the time it takes ISPs and streaming services to catch up).
#3: Many people are technophobes or unable to deal with technology more complicated than "insert disc, press play". Things like harddrives, networks, and downloads may require professional help for these people.
#4: Many people simply prefer physical media and do not wish to risk investing in digital licenses for digital files that could be lost by hardware failure or by the service provider merely ceasing service.

Yes, streaming will grow more, and frankly, I'd be surprised if streaming wasn't the primary option for rental pretty soon, with all brick-and-mortar movie rental stores going out of business. But will it kill off Blu-ray/DVD? Hell no. Not a chance. Plus, Netflix is still making plenty of bank on rental-by-mail, so even if they don't like it, they're still relying on physical media for revenue in one way.

[Canada]

My Grandma, never ever get Blu ray but she doesn't own a computer and would make it impossible for her to get films that are streamed, she can only do physical media.

[krazeyeyez]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

My Internet connection is 2mbps at best. To match Blu-ray's video capabilities, I would need over 36mbps consistently. Many in the US have no Internet at all, and of those that do, a connection similar or worse than mine is typical.

So basically, we need to overcome a few things:

#1: Not everyone has Internet connections.
#2: Most people who do have a connection need it to be over 18 times faster to best current physical media (ignoring the fact that physical media may advance even further in the time it takes ISPs and streaming services to catch up).
#3: Many people are technophobes or unable to deal with technology more complicated than "insert disc, press play". Things like harddrives, networks, and downloads may require professional help for these people.
#4: Many people simply prefer physical media and do not wish to risk investing in digital licenses for digital files that could be lost by hardware failure or by the service provider merely ceasing service.

Yes, streaming will grow more, and frankly, I'd be surprised if streaming wasn't the primary option for rental pretty soon, with all brick-and-mortar movie rental stores going out of business. But will it kill off Blu-ray/DVD? Hell no. Not a chance. Plus, Netflix is still making plenty of bank on rental-by-mail, so even if they don't like it, they're still relying on physical media for revenue in one way.

I guess if your talking specs your right, as far as what the eye can see, and those that don't care about bit rates etc, what they perceive... HD being delivered looks pretty good. To most 1080p is 1080p, in fact to many 480i with an upconvert dvd player is considered HD. Just think streaming is catching up, and has some serious advantages as far as marketability and growing access to households over blu. If they drop the ball on educating the public, its their fault, and frankly i don't care.

As for netflix, can't leave everyone out in the cold, that does not have or want streaming service, much like the studios can't just discontinue dvd today in favor of bluray just because its the "future".

I agree that blu-ray is not going anywhere soon, and i didn't even read the start of this thread, i just hopped in when i saw some serious bashing of streaming and its capabilities. I love blu-ray but i also love streaming, and can't wait to add it to my HT.

P.S. most of the HD streaming i have seen has been on 2-4mbps connections, and it looked absolutely great. Stargate universe amazed me as i had only seen it on standard cable before getting my buddy into the series.

[ack_bak]

Per the DEG year end numbers, digital growth (digital rental and sales) is actually slowing. From 2008 to 2009 the segment grew $500M. From 2009 to 2010 it grew $400M, or $100M less than the year before.

Anyone thinking that Blu-Ray, let alone DVD, are going away anytime soon is just kidding themselves.

While it is true that cheap streaming is rapidly growing via the likes of Netflix, Netflix streaming is limited to mostly lower tiered releases and certainly not the latest blockbuster releases just coming out on Blu-Ray/DVD. While I think cheap streaming will impact optical disc sales and rentals, I just don't see it replacing it. The studios are not going to give Netflix their new releases and big catalog titles so Netflix can stream it for cheap. And of course there is the quality debate. The vast majority of Netflix streaming content is not even low bit 720p, nor does it have 5.1 audio.

It is clear to me that there is going to be a place for optical disc for at least another 10 years, and perhaps, much longer than that. Look at CD sales. Globally CD sales still makeup 70% of all sales for the record studios.

[nolfoc]

Originally Posted by afrobean

my internet connection is 2mbps at best. To match blu-ray's video capabilities, i would need over 36mbps consistently. Many in the us have no internet at all, and of those that do, a connection similar or worse than mine is typical.

So basically, we need to overcome a few things:

#1: Not everyone has internet connections.
#2: Most people who do have a connection need it to be over 18 times faster to best current physical media (ignoring the fact that physical media may advance even further in the time it takes isps and streaming services to catch up).
#3: Many people are technophobes or unable to deal with technology more complicated than "insert disc, press play". Things like harddrives, networks, and downloads may require professional help for these people.
#4: Many people simply prefer physical media and do not wish to risk investing in digital licenses for digital files that could be lost by hardware failure or by the service provider merely ceasing service.

Yes, streaming will grow more, and frankly, i'd be surprised if streaming wasn't the primary option for rental pretty soon, with all brick-and-mortar movie rental stores going out of business. But will it kill off blu-ray/dvd? Hell no. Not a chance. Plus, netflix is still making plenty of bank on rental-by-mail, so even if they don't like it, they're still relying on physical media for revenue in one way.

+1

[Deadset]

Originally Posted by Rob71

Let's just put it this way. I'm sure the maternity wards will be standing room only in 8-9 months.

Sturgis week for me. That puts you in the ward in May, not a bad month at all.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Blu-ray Neo

Blu-ray will be around for years to come. The argument that Blu-ray will fall to streaming is just downright moronic. Tell that to the tens of millions of people that purchased 1080p HDTV's, PS3's, and other BD players. Aside from that fact, there are literally millions of people that do NOT have access to broadband internet and the internet companies don't really have the tech just yet to stream BD quality audio/video.

You may try and argue that I'm a minority, but that's a baseless argument. I'm the majority. HDTV adoption has tripled over the last 2 years and is expected to continue growing. Blu-ray adoption is growing slowly, but steadily. I think the biggest cause for the slow reception to BD is pretty clear unless you're Rip Van Winkle.

With the economy in the toliet and national unemployment rate being in the 18% range, that would have an effect on people's spending habits wouldn't you say?

A majority of Americans (myself included) will always support a physical form of media. I have over 4,000 DVD's and I'm approaching the 400 mark with Blu-ray. Sometimes I enjoy just looking at my bookshelf and showing others my collection.

As a former HD DVD supporter, Blu-ray is going to be the dominant form of media available. PERIOD! They're not going anywhere.

Sorry, these are not really valid arguments. They're completely subjective and anecdotal and not based on any facts. I'm not claiming that Blu-ray won't be around, but your arguments don't cut it. You can claim that you're the majority, but that's certainly not the case for the following reasons:

First of all, up until this year, the majority of HDTV owners had NO HD source of content. It's only since the cable companies started not charging for HDTV channels (although many charge for the upgraded set-top box) that the majority of HDTV owners have HDTV source material and my bet (although I can't prove it) is that a fair percentage of those actually watch the SD version because they don't know any better and they're used to tuning in the lower channel number (although some cable systems now have software that asks if you want to watch the HD version when you tune in the SD version.)

Just because someone has HDTV doesn't mean they care enough about PQ and AQ to purchase Blu-ray. I think they eventually will, but only because we're going to start seeing the disappearance of DVD-only players, except at the extreme low-end.

You yourself admit that there has been a "slow reception to BD". So you can't have it both ways. You can't claim that there's been a slow reception to BD but also claim it will always be here, because media that's not widely adopted disappears. Look at Betamax, Laserdisc, RCA videodisc, DVD-Audio, SACD, Mini-disc, HD-DVD, etc.

You claim that the majority of users will want a physical format (and I count myself in that category), but the music industry has proven that's not the case. Young people who are used to buying music as a download want video as a download or stream. Not just because they don't like physical media, but because the world is moving towards a "play it anywhere on any device" environment. And if the music industry has proven anything, it's that people care more about convenience than quality. Who would have guessed that at the same time that TVs are getting larger and larger, so many people would be satisfied watching video on a 3" screen?

You admit to the economy being poor. That means people living with their parents longer and except for those who managed to stay rich, far fewer McMansions, because people can no longer rely upon the equity in their homes being a piggy bank (and that's if they can obtain a mortgage in the first place). So people will be living with less space. That lends itself far more to a downloadable world where people don't maintain large collections of physical media. (People think I'm nuts when they see my LP/CD collection.)

If you own 4000 DVDs and 400 Blu-rays, you are indeed a unique exception to the vast majority of people, so you can't use yourself as an example of anything, especially since it would take you about six years, watching four hours a day, to watch all your videos just once each, which leads me to assume that you don't actually watch most of the videos that you buy.

In 2010, the DVD market in the U.S. was about $9.1 billion. At an average price of let's say $14, that's 5.7 units per household and 2.13 units per capita. In 2010, the BD market in the U.S. was about $1.645 billion. At an average price of $20, That's .72 units per household and .27 units per capita. That's still small enough that it could still disappear, especially if the economy once again gets worse. My bet is that once you get out of the top 20 titles, most BD releases lose money.

So do I think Blu-ray is a format that will last for a while? Sure. But not for the reasons you state. I think it's got three more years to prove itself. Luckily, the movie industry is still in far better shape than the music industry, which is now at half its 1999 peak.

[ack_bak]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Sorry, these are not really valid arguments. They're completely subjective and anecdotal and not based on any facts. I'm not claiming that Blu-ray won't be around, but your arguments don't cut it. You can claim that you're the majority, but that's certainly not the case for the following reasons:

First of all, up until this year, the majority of HDTV owners had NO HD source of content. It's only since the cable companies started not charging for HDTV channels (although many charge for the upgraded set-top box) that the majority of HDTV owners have HDTV source material and my bet (although I can't prove it) is that a fair percentage of those actually watch the SD version because they don't know any better and they're used to tuning in the lower channel number (although some cable systems now have software that asks if you want to watch the HD version when you tune in the SD version.)

Just because someone has HDTV doesn't mean they care enough about PQ and AQ to purchase Blu-ray. I think they eventually will, but only because we're going to start seeing the disappearance of DVD-only players, except at the extreme low-end.

You yourself admit that there has been a "slow reception to BD". So you can't have it both ways. You can't claim that there's been a slow reception to BD but also claim it will always be here, because media that's not widely adopted disappears. Look at Betamax, Laserdisc, RCA videodisc, DVD-Audio, SACD, Mini-disc, HD-DVD, etc.

You claim that the majority of users will want a physical format (and I count myself in that category), but the music industry has proven that's not the case. Young people who are used to buying music as a download want video as a download or stream. Not just because they don't like physical media, but because the world is moving towards a "play it anywhere on any device" environment. And if the music industry has proven anything, it's that people care more about convenience than quality. Who would have guessed that at the same time that TVs are getting larger and larger, so many people would be satisfied watching video on a 3" screen?

You admit to the economy being poor. That means people living with their parents longer and except for those who managed to stay rich, far fewer McMansions, because people can no longer rely upon the equity in their homes being a piggy bank (and that's if they can obtain a mortgage in the first place). So people will be living with less space. That lends itself far more to a downloadable world where people don't maintain large collections of physical media. (People think I'm nuts when they see my LP/CD collection.)

If you own 4000 DVDs and 400 Blu-rays, you are indeed a unique exception to the vast majority of people, so you can't use yourself as an example of anything, especially since it would take you about six years, watching four hours a day, to watch all your videos just once each, which leads me to assume that you don't actually watch most of the videos that you buy.

In 2010, the DVD market in the U.S. was about $9.1 billion. At an average price of let's say $14, that's 5.7 units per household and 2.13 units per capita. In 2010, the BD market in the U.S. was about $1.645 billion. At an average price of $20, That's .72 units per household and .27 units per capita. That's still small enough that it could still disappear, especially if the economy once again gets worse. My bet is that once you get out of the top 20 titles, most BD releases lose money.

So do I think Blu-ray is a format that will last for a while? Sure. But not for the reasons you state. I think it's got three more years to prove itself. Luckily, the movie industry is still in far better shape than the music industry, which is now at half its 1999 peak.

I disagree that Blu-Ray has to prove itself. DVD is on a massive decline and digital is not going to be able to pickup the slack. Many new release movies are selling 20-60% of their copies on Blu-Ray and this will continue to increase as more people buy hardware that supports Blu-Ray and are exposed to Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray is growing faster than digital sellthrough. I don't see Blu-Ray needing three more years. It is here to stay now. In none of the data we have does it appear there is anything that will replace optical disc within three years. It just is not going to happen. And I question if it could even happen sooner than 7 years.

[in2video2]

Originally Posted by ack_bak

I disagree that Blu-Ray has to prove itself. DVD is on a massive decline and digital is not going to be able to pickup the slack. Many new release movies are selling 20-60% of their copies on Blu-Ray and this will continue to increase as more people buy hardware that supports Blu-Ray and are exposed to Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray is growing faster than digital sellthrough. I don't see Blu-Ray needing three more years. It is here to stay now. In none of the data we have does it appear there is anything that will replace optical disc within three years. It just is not going to happen. And I question if it could even happen sooner than 7 years.

And further the release of catalogue classic movies has increased so quickly that major studios are beginning to realize they are worth investing in restorations for HDTV on Blu-Ray - which in turn widens the already growing Blu-Ray audience base.

[nolfoc]

Originally Posted by in2video2

and further the release of catalogue classic movies has increased so quickly that major studios are beginning to realize they are worth investing in restorations for hdtv on blu-ray - which in turn widens the already growing blu-ray audience base.

+1

[Flatnate]

All the talk about comparing physical media to streaming seems pointless to me in a way. Yeah young people don't care about owning physical media but one song isn't much more than 5 megs. Sure I'd probably give up blu-ray if I could download an entire movie to my Kaleidescope like HTPC in .. well even a half hour but I can barely buffer 480p out of Netflix. So this talk of three years for Blu-ray to prove itself is bogus because the ISP's will never upgrade the pipeline to me that fast... in fact even if I wanted to download a hard file from somewhere, the bandwidth police would probably see my usage and slow my line down even further, take me the better half of a week to get it! So what other option do you have for that kind of quality in my shoes?

[nolfoc]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

All the talk about comparing physical media to streaming seems pointless to me in a way. Yeah young people don't care about owning physical media but one song isn't much more than 5 megs. Sure I'd probably give up blu-ray if I could download an entire movie to my Kaleidescope like HTPC in .. well even a half hour but I can barely buffer 480p out of Netflix. So this talk of three years for Blu-ray to prove itself is bogus because the ISP's will never upgrade the pipeline to me that fast... in fact even if I wanted to download a hard file from somewhere, the bandwidth police would probably see my usage and slow my line down even further, take me the better half of a week to get it! So what other option do you have for that kind of quality in my shoes?

im 26 and consider that fairly young and hate computers and everything about streaming and what not..

[Flatnate]

I hear ya man I'm 30, my inlaws are from the northern part of Minnesota and so I spent a good amount of time up there. So, I was talking with a buddy in Minneapolis. I told him I still bought CD's and his jaw just hit the floor. I tried to explain to him "hey everyone up here is buying CD's, rural america keeps the format alive because bandwidths is non existent". Not to mention my dad will never download an MP3 before he dies. He'll have a CD player in his truck till they pull him from the road.

On another note, I should mention I'm a professional pilot. There is a lot of talk about satellite and wireless technology being explored under Obama's plan for rural internet expansion but they are finding that the wireless frequencies being proposed by the FCC interfere with the wide area augmentation system relied on by the next generation GPS based air traffic control system. This puts that whole thing at risk of falling apart as I highly doubt the FAA is going to let the cornerstone of their work towards modernization over the past decade go in the pooper because of some proposal from a start up rural ISP.

[slick1ru2]

The future is DLC. Apple is the business model. People like George Lucas are behind it. That is what many in the distribution end of the industry want. They want to not really sell you a movie. They want to sell you the right to watch it. You don't own it, so you can't legally sell it. DRM. But it seems that some of the ISPs are not cooperating. In Canada, they just dropped bandwidth from caps of 250gb a month to a tenth of that. You can buy extra monthly dl gb, like $4 per gig. As for the arguements on what Blu-ray streaming rates are compared to current bandwidth rates, its going to be compressed. Netflix can stream 720p and doesn't need a ton of bandwidth to do it. Netflix is moving out of calling itself a DVD renting company to a streaming media company. They know that ISPs are their lifeblood and have just started posting data for average streaming rates per ISP. They are monitoring line quality and hope that by releasing the information monthly, their customers will contact their ISP when their connection is not good enough to stream Netflix's HD content. Which does, btw, look very good, better then normal HD TV content at 1080i.

[Cevolution]

Originally Posted by nolfoc

im 26 and consider that fairly young and hate computers and everything about streaming and what not..

Originally Posted by Flatnate

I hear ya man I'm 30, my inlaws are from the northern part of Minnesota and so I spent a good amount of time up there. So, I was talking with a buddy in Minneapolis. I told him I still bought CD's and his jaw just hit the floor. I tried to explain to him "hey everyone up here is buying CD's, rural america keeps the format alive because bandwidths is non existent". Not to mention my dad will never download an MP3 before he dies. He'll have a CD player in his truck till they pull him from the road.

On another note, I should mention I'm a professional pilot. There is a lot of talk about satellite and wireless technology being explored under Obama's plan for rural internet expansion but they are finding that the wireless frequencies being proposed by the FCC interfere with the wide area augmentation system relied on by the next generation GPS based air traffic control system. This puts that whole thing at risk of falling apart as I highly doubt the FAA is going to let the cornerstone of their work towards modernization over the past decade go in the pooper because of some proposal from a start up rural ISP.

I don't hate computers but I'm certainly not too fond of them. I'm 29 years old, I still buy cd's, and exactly like u said about your dad (my dad's also the same), that will never change until the day I die (if they or physical discs are still available when I'm 70). Sure I download from time to time , like just recently I downloaded Drew McIntyre's wwe theme song from itunes, only because its not available on cd yet, but as soon as it comes on cd, I couldn't care less if the cd costs $20, i'll be buying it even if that's the only song I like on the cd, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Alot of people who choose to download also like whats popular at the time, but that's not me, I personally really hate most but not all music that comes out today. Let's face it, the music that comes out today won't be sort after in 20 years (seriously if physical media is still available who's going to walk into a store and ask for a Christina Aguilera album for 1999 in 20 years time, nobody), because it's throw away stuff popular in the moment.

Young people and people who prefer to stream/download aren't the whole, maybe when people in their teens or early 20's are 70 then physical media will be gone but until then and while people want physical media then we will be given that option. Besides streaming is just a rental service, so if your a person who used to borrow movies from blockbuster a lot then it's understandable that u will choose streaming. Most people who prefer to hire only want to watch the movie once or maybe twice, and after they have seen it (unless its one of their favorite movies) then they don't care if they ever see it again. Not everyone is like that thought, there is also a lot of people who like movies in general and collected them, whether the movie is popular or not, and that will never change.

I think blu-rays and other forms of physical media will always coexist with streaming, it's really irrelevant which 1 ends up having the greater market share, because it's about giving the consumer options, we don't like being told what to do, we like being able to make up our own minds and choose for ourselves.