Oh noes teh sky is falling!

[biznus97]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

Bingo! Give this guy the biggest cigar you have!

Pro-B

While I understand a lot of what you are saying, I think there are many people on the forums that try to downplay the success that DVD had. Like you, I don't think Blu-ray is doing badly when you consider the market, the alternatives, etc. I just don't think people should expect your average Joe to buy movies the same way and in the same numbers they may have years ago. Also like you I am a film collector. If I can't get the film on Blu then DVD will have to do. I can't say that I'm not a bit disappointed that my wishlist still has so many upgrades left on it. But in this economy, companies are releasing what sells which isn't always what I want.

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by biznus97

While I understand a lot of what you are saying, I think there are many people on the forums that try to downplay the success that DVD had. Like you, I don't think Blu-ray is doing badly when you consider the market, the alternatives, etc. I just don't think people should expect your average Joe to buy movies the same way and in the same numbers they may have years ago.

Well, I don't And if there are people trying to downplay DVD's success they either also have an agenda or simply do not understand how the market has changed. It is naive to try to criticize and belittle DVD.

DVD was a success story for its time. Blu-ray is also a success story for its time.

But people should understand this (which you also touch upon in your post): You cannot compare DVD's market performance to Blu-ray's market performance to determine success (whatever your definition is). There are different forces directing these markets.

The market changed, the economic climate changed, the studios changed or many simply no longer exist. What was then was then. What is happening now means something different, success is measured differently. That's all there is to it.

So all these charts where someone would try to prove that DVD sold that many units in a certain year while Blu-ray sold this many units now mean nothing. They exist in different realities. What matters is that the format continues to grow and that Blu-ray's catalog gets bigger and bigger.

Pro-B

[biznus97]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

Well, I don't And if there are people trying to downplay DVD's success they either also have an agenda or simply do not understand how the market has changed. It is naive to try to criticize and belittle DVD.

DVD was a success story for its time. Blu-ray is also a success story for its time.

But people should understand this (which you also touch upon in your post): You cannot compare DVD's market performance to Blu-ray's market performance to determine success (whatever your definition is). There are different forces directing these markets.

The market changed, the economic climate changed, the studios changed or many simply no longer exist. What was then was then. What is happening now means something different, success is measured differently. That's all there is to it.

So all these charts where someone would try to prove that DVD sold that many units in a certain year while Blu-ray sold this many units now mean nothing. They exist in different realities. What matters is that the format continues to grow and that Blu-ray's catalog gets bigger and bigger.

Pro-B

You nailed it .

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

DVD was a success story for its time. Blu-ray is also a success story for its time.

Dvd was a mass acceptance success, it replaced VHS and opened up the idea of "home video collecting" to millions of people. Dvd is now pretty much done.

Blu ray is a success because of the level of quality it can produce. Right now, sale prices have hit rock bottom at $4.99 for a lot of titles. Dark Knight Rises combo pack is going for as low at $17.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

I did. And without knowing your collection, I am fairly certain that I had a much bigger LD collection because I had to work with different distributors directly

how many lds did you have?

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

Dvd was a mass acceptance success, it replaced VHS and opened up the idea of "home video collecting" to millions of people. Dvd is now pretty much done.

First point, I agree. Second point, I don't.

Where are you getting this idea that DVD is done? I will be willing to address various numbers and charts showing sales trends from the last two years if you post them here to back up your claim.

Originally Posted by pagemaster

Blu ray is a success because of the level of quality it can produce. Right now, sale prices have hit rock bottom at $4.99 for a lot of titles. Dark Knight Rises combo pack is going for as low at $17.

I don't agree with you. There are budget releases and there are releases with standard price tags (18$+ and up) - just as it was and still is the case with DVD.

Originally Posted by pagemaster

how many lds did you have?

In the thousands.

Pro-B

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

First point, I agree. Second point, I don't.

Where are you getting this idea that DVD is done? I will be willing to address various numbers and charts showing sales trends from the last two years if you post them here to back up your claim.

When they start packing a dvd, blu ray and digital download in a complete pack, it is pretty telling that dvd is dead and blu ray is dying.....on a mass consumption level.

[Steedeel]

Page master, if bluray is dying, how can it be around in future? Don't forget, it is collectors that drive the market. Just my opinion, but you cannot seem to make your mind up?

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Page master, if bluray is dying, how can it be around in future? Don't forget, it is collectors that drive the market. Just my opinion, but you cannot seem to make your mind up?

When I say blu ray is dying, what I mean is that mass acceptance and being the preferred home video source by the masses is not going to happen. Streaming and down loading will be the main source of watching movies at home.

Redbox use will also slowly decline over time.

Eventually, blu ray will level off on sales and it will be mostly collectors and enthusiasts who will support it, very similar to the laserdisc experience. Of course there will be a market for blu ray but it will be very limited.

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

When they start packing a dvd, blu ray and digital download in a complete pack, it is pretty telling that dvd is dead and blu ray is dying.....on a mass consumption level.

I see. So you don't have numbers or links to offer here to supplant your claims.

I am sorry, but what you claim isn't telling to me.

Originally Posted by pagemaster

Eventually, blu ray will level off on sales and it will be mostly collectors and enthusiasts who will support it, very similar to the laserdisc experience. Of course there will be a market for blu ray but it will be very limited.

This is also a skewed statement. I wrote earlier - DVD's growth and "success" was driven primarily by enthusiasts, according to Universal's Kornbleau, approximately 10% of them.This type of support/market breakdown was never present with LD.

More importantly, Blu-ray is now well beyond LD both in terms of presence on the market place and support by the distributors.

I am sorry, but what you have written above does not make sense and it is not supported by facts.

Pro-B

[metaridley]

Originally Posted by Brown

I am a blu-ray collector, but I admit I fear for the format. Despite greater releases in the past few years, the number of blu-ray catalog titles seems woeful when compared to DVD at similar points of development. And when it comes down to non-cinematic fare, blu-ray is a victim of its fanbases' obesssion with the "perfect pretty picture." Now most readers here hardly care about it, but DVD took off when parents bought countless videos for their children. Not just Disney features. Barney. Sesame Street. TV shows also were spit out right and left. (How ironic is it that the old complaint about black bars is being thrown at 4x3 programming by some people that claim to respect AOR?) And what about porn? It certainly helped the success of DVD, but it hasn't done anything for blu-ray.

But what industry has excelled in providing these essential niches? Streaming services. Netflix and other companies have poured more and more children's and television programming to the public. And what do Barney, Magnum P.I., and porn have in common? They weren't filmed to look like Avatar, and no one minded.

However, as I wrote, your average reader here (the loyal base of the format's support, I suppose) could care less about anything other than James Cameron's next glitterfest so the studios aren't going to put money into upgrading most older TV series. Forget about Barney, too. But don't be surprised when history lumps blu-ray somewhere between laser disc and DVD. (And I owned plenty of LDs and hopelessly wait for the day when, despite the low quality PQ, someone puts out a blu-ray containing David Bowie or New Order videos.)

There's a place for non-cinematic, SD programming on blu-ray. A company could easily throw an entire season of SD television on a single disc. But then they would have to somehow explain this low-tech option to a thick-headed public and deal with the PQ fascists who don't believe SD video should ever disgrace their precious blu-ray disc. Never.

You seem to be all over the place here and I really can't figure out what your point is or what you're angry at. Also, "PQ fascists"? I don't even know what this means. People want Blu-ray to look as good as possible and this is a bad thing?

[blonde_devil]

2 reasons - they are still producing dvds and the wow factor was gone.

with dvd, it was a huge step up from vhs. even with a regular old tv, you suddenly had 5.1 surround sound, commentary, alternate angles(if they used it), etc. you can say laserdisc had the same but that was overpriced and therefore not something most people got into. but this was different and cheaper so it caught people's attention. but to the average person, what is the difference between dvd and HD-DVD/Bluray other than the price? nothing really. sure the picture is clearer and the sound is better but that doesn't matter to everyone. a lot of people still don't have HD channels at home so the average dvd is still better than what they see on tv so it is good enough. it seems like there is no real wow factor to get people to stop buying dvd movies and start buying bluray.

the other factor is that bluray has been along for how many years now and they still sell dvd copies. worse than that, they package them up with the bluray. kind of a mixed message. it is like the PS3 - Sony complained that people were buying the PS2 version of a game instead of the PS3 version so instead of stopping production on PS2 games, they made it so new PS3 machines couldn't play the PS2 games. If studios stopped putting newer releases on dvd(leave that for things like older shows where the quality doesn't warrent a bluray release), dropped the prices by about 25%, and then just released the movies on bluray, it would catch on fast because people have no choice. you can't open a Starbucks across the street from another Starbucks and expect both to be super busy - one has to disappear at some point.

[MStallard]

Hi guys, new here but I was just scouring the interwebs and looking into products and I came across the community and thought I would put in my two cents!

I would have to disagree with some of the stuff on here. I do think that in time blu-rays will become more popular. It deals with the economy, the price of blu-rays, and upgrading/phasing out DVD players for new equipment.

I work for a transfer company and we convert old home movies from either film 8mm, super 8mm, 16mm, and tapes both consumer and professional and we have seen a huge increase in the amount of customers that want their stuff transferred to blu-ray. It's great because of the amount of content that can be stored on the Blu-ray and it's high def capabilities.

I think in time we will see more consumers embrace blu-ray. Consumers are hesitant by nature I think, look at all the people regretting investing into HD DVDs, or ask others about Betamax. The industry has to prove to the consumers that the blu-ray format is here to stay and I THINK that it slowly is showing us that.

[Javy3]

Originally Posted by octagon

I've got a different question: why do so many people care whether Blu-ray meets or surpasses various DVD-related yardsticks?

Household penetration is more than respectable, players are more than affordable, we're getting a wider and wider selection of well-produced catalog titles every year and discs are dirt cheap.

DVD was phenomally successful. It had over 90% household penetration. That's up there with phones and tvs. It's a really high bar.

Does it really matter if Blu-ray hits those levels or not?

People care for different reasons but many care because they want their shows to be released on Blu ray instead of DVD. There are still TV shows like Young Justice, Green Lantern Animated, Thundercats and many others that were HD on TV but released on DVD instead of Blu ray.

Having Blu ray reach those levels will guarantee a Blu ray release of your favorite show.

[lobosrul]

Originally Posted by Brown

I had a couple points. First that blu-ray has ignored interests (catalog TV, children's programming, porn) that propelled DVD to its heights, and yes, some of this is due to PQ elitism. Sure, we all want new releases to look glorious but why do so many have such disdain for anything less than Avatar-quality glitz? Blu-ray isn't just about high-def. It has great storage capacity (e.g., the Alien Anthology disc that holds all the SD documentaries) and promise. However, so many people around this site seem merely concerned with perfect PQ. And companies are listening, and they've forsaken these interests and allowed services such as Netflix to sweep in and take advantage.

I want blu-ray to succeed, and I want all types of programming on disc. However, what do I read on forums? Supposed film fans that don't buy digibook releases because the spines don't match the height of their other discs. PQ snobs that sight-unseen ridicule Echo Bridge or Mill Creek releases when no other companies seem willing to put out the films EB or MC have licensed. (I guess movies are better left unseen unless they are all given fresh 4K remastering, right?) There are self-proclaimed "OCD sufferers" here willing admit that they don't purchase double- or triple-features because these releases confound alphabetical ordering of their collections. Forum discussions about films that ignore the quality of the actual movie in favor of slip cover or cover design debates.

And these people represent the loyal customer base that sustains blu-ray? The base that has the ear (or watchful eye) of industry marketers who decide what makes it onto disc? No, I am not angry about this state of affairs. Just puzzled. Puzzled that the obsession over PQ is part of what is holding back the growth of blu-ray. Sure, PQ is important, but it is not everything.

You hit the nail on the head! The reason BD doesn't have 90%+ market share is many of its customers care about PQ. If we would only accept slapped-together releases, digital download would die tomorrow, and DVD's would cease to be manufactured by next week! God forbid we want things to be done right! Poor poor Universal being bullied by us OCD elitist PQ snobs, into re-releasing Gladiator. We should have just accepted the disappearing arrows and obnoxiously heavy DNR and EE. Its ALL our fault. Why, I'm going out straight after work to buy The Longest Day. Who cares if its digitally altered so bad it looks like the actors are made of wax. I'm sure it would have cost, what, absolutely nothing extra, to put out a decent quality release.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Brown

Sure, PQ is important, but it is not everything.

Exactly, that is why dvds are sometime a much better value than the same movie in blu ray. Seriously, a movie like "Hope Floats" might be $4.99 on dvd, I pity the fool who needs or thinks they need to buy the blu-ray for $17.99 or so.

Now, when it comes to a movie like Avatar, Patton, Sound of Music, yes blu-ray is a must have as long as the price premium is not to high, I am not saying rip us off at $39.99, but it has to be reasonable. This is very similar to the days of laserdisc where widescreen and 5.1 dolby or dts sound was extremely important compared to what was available on vhs. Blu-ray will be the modern version of the laserdisc.....

A movie like Dark Knight Rises begs to be seen in 1080p on blu ray, the whole IMAX sequences make it worth it, and then there is the sound. Was Batman Forever on laserdisc with 5.1 Dolby much better than the vhs tape better? of course it was.

Blu ray is for select titles and experience, (Dark Knight with IMAX sequences, master audio for certain movies) it is a premium experience....I am looking at my dvds as I type, would it really be necessary to buy and upgrade from dvd-blu ray for a title like Mrs. Doubtfire, or Green Card, or maybe Rain Man? Most people wouldn't do it in the vhs-laserdisc era......I would call the person a complete idiot if they did it in the dvd-blu ray era.....

[lobosrul]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

Blu ray is for select titles and experience, (Dark Knight with IMAX sequences, master audio for certain movies) it is a premium experience....I am looking at my dvds as I type, would it really be necessary to buy and upgrade from dvd-blu ray for a title like Mrs. Doubtfire, or Green Card, or maybe Rain Man? Most people wouldn't do it in the vhs-laserdisc era......I would call the person a complete idiot if they did it in the dvd-blu ray era.....

Well its certainly not necessary, but I wouldn't call that person an idiot. Even something shot on 16mm film, if given a proper restoration, can see a pretty big jump in PQ from DVD to BD. 35mm, very easily so.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

......I would call the person a complete idiot.....

I'm sure that would cause that person many sleepless nights too.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by lobosrul

Well its certainly not necessary, but I wouldn't call that person an idiot. Even something shot on 16mm film, if given a proper restoration, can see a pretty big jump in PQ from DVD to BD. 35mm, very easily so.

Yes I agree, something like the 4K restorations of James Bond makes it worth it. But we are talking about serious collectors here. The average person did not care about Batman Forever on laserdisc in 5.1 Dolby Digital widescreen (but the enthusiast did).....and the average person would not care either about the IMAX sequences on a blu ray.

Blu ray is a premium experience for certain types of movies.....the rest are just fine on dvd, or streaming....and yes even youtube.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

Blu ray is a premium experience for certain types of movies.....the rest are just fine on dvd, or streaming....and yes even youtube.

The types that were shot on film?