Oh noes teh sky is falling!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You always seem to be ahead of the curve, it's other folks who've been doing the fretting...

Retired don’t mean dead . I still keep my nose to the wind…..in as many dimensions as I can - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...in#post7844505

Good to see (from another thread) that you’re not only a 4K ; but also, a 3D aficionado, as I wasn't aware of that.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by bhampton

...the video looks baaad.

Perhaps someday you’ll view that White Pointer pictured in your avatar in this video quality in the comfort of your home…http://www.newtec.eu/article/news/wo...-4k-uhd-at-ibc

Some day.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Retired don’t mean dead . I still keep my nose to the wind…..in as many dimensions as I can - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...in#post7844505

Good to see (from another thread) that you’re not only a 4K ; but also, a 3D aficionado, as I wasn't aware of that.

Yep, I love a bit of stereo action too. The 4K set has revitalised my 3D viewing thanks to its peerless 3D performance.

Originally Posted by bhampton

Some of this discussion reminds me of Laserdiscs.

Somehow (long time ago) they looked AMAZING.

Now, I can't possibly put up with how bad they look.

I'm wondering if some future tech could have this affect on Blu but I can't imagine it because Blu Ray looks ... ... ... AMAZING.

I need to go destroy the 2 titles I still own on LD (even though they will never come to a updated format) because if I try watching them it's going to make me mad because the video looks baaad.

Heh. I've watched a couple of LDs on my 4K set, and they didn't disgrace themselves. Helps that I've got a kickass player though (Runco LJR II).

[steve1971]

Originally Posted by pixler

I bought a lot of movies of DVD and then Blu-Ray came along and I was sold on this technology so I started re-buying movies I once had on DVD so I can get them on Blu-Ray. Now we have 4K technology but I'm not buying into it, at least not yet. Blu-Ray is good enough for me. I'm not going to keep re-buying movies everytime a new technology comes out. I might upgrade later down the road but it's too soon for a new format to come out. Blu-Ray is still new, it hasn't been around for very long. Technology needs to slow down. I just hope 4K doesn't phase out Blu-Ray any time soon.

I don't think you have to worry about 4K phasing out Blu ray anytime soon pixler. If anything 4K might make Blu ray even better then it already is if that's possible. I am like you though I am not buying into the 4K craze and am not re-buying movies every time there's a new Technology coming out. Blu ray and my HT setup is just fine for now and into the future. And lastly I agree Technology needs to slow down a bit. I call it too much too soon. Don't get me wrong I am all for Technology moving forward but don't over do it which I feel is happening as we speak. Could be wrong its just my view.

[singhcr]

The good thing with 4K BD even if you don't want to go 4K is that it should hopefully drive the use of 4K DI's for existing and new films.

In the theater, we would get more 4K DI's to watch.
If you are watching standard BD, then you would get the benefit of the 4K masters, even in 1080p form.

So you see, 4K BD is good for everyone!

[Tok]

Originally Posted by steve1971

I don't think you have to worry about 4K phasing out Blu ray anytime soon pixler. If anything 4K might make Blu ray even better then it already is if that's possible. I am like you though I am not buying into the 4K craze and am not re-buying movies every time there's a new Technology coming out. Blu ray and my HT setup is just fine for now and into the future. And lastly I agree Technology needs to slow down a bit. I call it too much too soon. Don't get me wrong I am all for Technology moving forward but don't over do it which I feel is happening as we speak. Could be wrong its just my view.

The thing with video technology is that we are reaching the point of diminishing returns. Analog, VHS -> Digital DVD a significant improvement was seen. TV screens got larger so DVD's limitations were more easily revealed. SD, DVD -> HD, Blu-ray again a significant improvement was revealed.

HD -> UHD although a 4x increase in resolution at typical viewing distances even with larger sets it remains to be seen if a majority consumers are going to be impressed.

Large scale UHD broadcasts are years away and even a physical format while a nice attempt is not going to bring masses at the high prices that are going to standard. 3D has been here for several years and it is still struggling, very little broadcast and high physical format prices.

The reality of UHD for the near to mid term is that the CE industry is just pulling an old trick from up their sleeve,,, upscaling. Why do you think they chose exactly doubling the resolution in each direction and not going with true 4K resolution? Because scaling works much easier with integer multipliers.

Sure I want technology to march forward but we don't need UHD yet.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by steve1971

I don't think you have to worry about 4K phasing out Blu ray anytime soon pixler. If anything 4K might make Blu ray even better then it already is if that's possible. I am like you though I am not buying into the 4K craze and am not re-buying movies every time there's a new Technology coming out. Blu ray and my HT setup is just fine for now and into the future. And lastly I agree Technology needs to slow down a bit. I call it too much too soon. Don't get me wrong I am all for Technology moving forward but don't over do it which I feel is happening as we speak. Could be wrong its just my view.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that this 4K Blu-Ray format would still require the purchasing of a new player to even use the discs (meaning 4K BD discs won't work in existing players). If that is the case, then for all intenstive purposes this is a new format that is separate from Blu-Ray as we know it now, just as the now defunct HD-DVD format was essentially a separate format from DVD.

It will still require upgrading/rebuying equipment the same as any other format that isn't based upon Blu-Ray would be.

The only way that I could see it making a smooth transition is if they could somehow make this 4K BD format work in existing BD players with 1080p output, but require a new player for 4K output. This way if people just want to upgrade their equipment in their "primary" viewing room, they could still watch the same disc in other rooms with regular BD players.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that this 4K Blu-Ray format would still require the purchasing of a new player to even use the discs (meaning 4K BD discs won't work in existing players). If that is the case, then for all intenstive purposes this is a new format that is separate from Blu-Ray as we know it now, just as the now defunct HD-DVD format was essentially a separate format from DVD.

It will still require upgrading/rebuying equipment the same as any other format that isn't based upon Blu-Ray would be.

The only way that I could see it making a smooth transition is if they could somehow make this 4K BD format work in existing BD players with 1080p output, but require a new player for 4K output. This way if people just want to upgrade their equipment in their "primary" viewing room, they could still watch the same disc in other rooms with regular BD players.

The UHD BD disc will be an extension to the BD spec. It will require a new profile player and BD drive most likely. The BD3D disc essentially was a new format also but they were close enough to the original BD that existing hardware could read them if they put out a single 2D/3D if authored that way.

So I agree it is a new format much like HD DVD was a successor to DVD in that many of the same companies that helped establish BD will be part of the creation of the UHD BD disc.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Tok

The UHD BD disc will be an extension to the BD spec. It will require a new profile player and BD drive most likely. The BD3D disc essentially was a new format also but they were close enough to the original BD that existing hardware could read them if they put out a single 2D/3D if authored that way.

So I agree it is a new format much like HD DVD was a successor to DVD in that many of the same companies that helped establish BD will be part of the creation of the UHD BD disc.

That's what I thought. And as such, "4K Blu-Ray" is as much a different format from Blu-Ray as we know it now as a format with a completely different name and different specs.

So someone saying that it means we don't have to worry about Blu-Ray being "phased out" because "4k Blu-Ray is a type of Blu-Ray" is silly since for all intensive purposes it is a completely new format.

If anything I hope they give it a completely new name (even if it is based on the Blu-Ray spec) since I think keeping Blu-Ray in the name will just do more to confuse the general public than anything. People will buy the discs thinking they can use them in their existing BD players and won't be able to.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

That's what I thought. And as such, "4K Blu-Ray" is as much a different format from Blu-Ray as we know it now as a format with a completely different name and different specs.

So someone saying that it means we don't have to worry about Blu-Ray being "phased out" because "4k Blu-Ray is a type of Blu-Ray" is silly since for all intensive purposes it is a completely new format.

If anything I hope they give it a completely new name (even if it is based on the Blu-Ray spec) since I think keeping Blu-Ray in the name will just do more to confuse the general public than anything. People will buy the discs thinking they can use them in their existing BD players and won't be able to.

True. The reality is this:

The CE makers have new UHD/4K panels they want to sell with no true native content to display. Upscaling is just snakeoil. It won't magically make a 1080i/p source UHD.

The only options for true UHD content are limited and I really question how good UHD downloads and streams will be. We all know that 1080p Netflix/iTunes/Vudu still is not close to true high bit-rate BD quality especially when viewed on a large display. They are counting on their core market being dumb.

I know as the LCD panels get bigger it is very easy to see the interpixel spacing (the screendoor effect) from a few feet away. Even UHD LCD will have SD. I have a SXRD projector which has very minimal SDE and 1080p looks pretty damn good on a 100in screen from 9ft away. I have no plans of upgrading for UHD resolution until the technology is cheap and I highly doubt I am going to rebuy much of my collection at UHD resolution.

I first started using a projection system with DVD. After getting accustomed to HD and BD with projection I could no longer watch DVD because it was severely lacking in quality. DVD was never meant to be blown up for projection. BD is 1080p which is essentially near 2K cinema resolution. Now I am all for 4K in the cinema where the screens are measured in 10s of ft. For a home cinema 1080p is more than enough for the vast majority of setups.

[Tok]

Plus I have a sinking feeling that UHD BD discs are going to mark the return of Laserdisc pricing.

I am not going back to paying $50+ for any single title let alone $30. When the Blu-ray first came out the industry thought $30 should be the minimum price for a BD. My limit for most titles is still $20 and that's for new releases or sale priced 3D discs. Anymore for most catalog titles the limit is quickly approaching $10.

I would guess the most serious BD buyers are very price savvy and look for the best deals. And there's the conundrum... the collector market has gotten used to buying the titles they want for low prices. If the studios think the hardcore collectors are going to fork over an arm and a leg just because something is native UHD they are going to be in for a big surprise. Hell, seven years in and BD is still the secondary video disc format to DVD. I just don't think the market is ready for another format.

I would guess that is why they are trying to present this as an extension to the BD format. It could very well backfire on the industry. I remember when we knew HD DVD and BD were around the corner I cut off buying DVDs cold turkey and sat on the sidelines for nearly a year. I have a feeling the industry is fearful of their core group of consumers stopping their purchase habits.

[blu-razor]

Yeah I'm stopping at blu rays.. until I come across my next money pit- endeavor

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Tok

I would guess the most serious BD buyers are very price savvy and look for the best deals. And there's the conundrum... the collector market has gotten used to buying the titles they want for low prices. If the studios think the hardcore collectors are going to fork over an arm and a leg just because something is native UHD they are going to be in for a big surprise. Hell, seven years in and BD is still the secondary video disc format to DVD. I just don't think the market is ready for another format.

Heh. Stick it in a limited edition steelbook and you'll have a fair few people thrusting their cash at you. My point being, there are plenty of people out there willing to pay a premium for a product that appeals to them. The phenom of the tight-arsed buyer (borne out of cheap DVD releases, which translates to a curious sense of entitlement when it comes to cheap Blu-ray prices) is a relatively new one, as the true "hardcore collectors" have had decades worth of practice at paying an arm and a leg for the movies that they want in the best possible format (guilty as charged!).

I've paid far more for certain Laserdisc and DVHS titles than I have for any DVD or Blu-ray release, so even if BD 4K releases come in at 50 simoleans each I'll eat 'em up and beg for more.

BD 3D has managed to coexist quite nicely with the standard BD format, and I think 4K will do the same. People keep pointing out that it won't become a standard etc etc, yet I don't think they're bursting any bubbles because no-one here has any illusions on that front. It'll be a niche of a niche for the longest time, but while people are buying them at those inflated prices then it'll chug along in the background.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Heh. Stick it in a limited edition steelbook and you'll have a fair few people thrusting their cash at you. My point being, there are plenty of people out there willing to pay a premium for a product that appeals to them. The phenom of the tight-arsed buyer (borne out of cheap DVD releases, which translates to a curious sense of entitlement when it comes to cheap Blu-ray prices) is a relatively new one, as the true "hardcore collectors" have had decades worth of practice at paying an arm and a leg for the movies that they want in the best possible format (guilty as charged!).

I've paid far more for certain Laserdisc and DVHS titles than I have for any DVD or Blu-ray release, so even if BD 4K releases come in at 50 simoleans each I'll eat 'em up and beg for more.

BD 3D has managed to coexist quite nicely with the standard BD format, and I think 4K will do the same. People keep pointing out that it won't become a standard etc etc, yet I don't think they're bursting any bubbles because no-one here has any illusions on that front. It'll be a niche of a niche for the longest time, but while people are buying them at those inflated prices then it'll chug along in the background.

Well some have more disposable income than others. I have a good education, but I am currently out of work and also have three young children to support. My days of supporting cutting edge video and audio technology is going to have to take a break. And the fact is there are a hell of lot families like mine in this economy.

If people want it and are willing to pay then fine, but how many physical formats can the market support. Blu is gaining on DVD, but it is still not the defacto standard for movies on disc. And now they think the market will support UHD discs. That's just crazy.

It took BD many years to get established as a viable format considering the format war and the maturation of the downloading/streaming business. It is going to be a long haul for a UHD format to grow anywhere even near BD's current level.

UHD discs are at best going to become this generations laserdisc and that might be the best thing for the format. Low volume and high prices means a niche market.

So I caution you if you think that are going to be enough consumers in your corner that will pay high prices for many titles. I can only think of handful of titles where a higher sticker price would not influence a purchasing decision.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Tok

Well some have more disposable income than others. I have a good education, but I am currently out of work and also have three young children to support. My days of supporting cutting edge video and audio technology is going to have to take a break. And the fact is there are a hell of lot families like mine in this economy.

If people want it and are willing to pay then fine, but how many physical formats can the market support. Blu is gaining on DVD, but it is still not the defacto standard for movies on disc. And now they think that the market will support UHD discs.

It took BD many years to get established as a viable format considering the format war and the maturation of the downloading/streaming business. It is going to be a long haul for a UHD format to grow anywhere even near BD's current level.

UHD discs are at best going to become this generations laserdisc and that might be the best thing for the format. Low volume and high prices means a niche market.

So I caution you if you think that are going to be enough consumers in your corner that will pay high prices for many titles. I can only think of handful of titles where a higher sticker price would not influence a purchasing decision.

The choice will exist, that's the key thing.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Heh. Stick it in a limited edition steelbook and you'll have a fair few people thrusting their cash at you. My point being, there are plenty of people out there willing to pay a premium for a product that appeals to them. The phenom of the tight-arsed buyer (borne out of cheap DVD releases, which translates to a curious sense of entitlement when it comes to cheap Blu-ray prices) is a relatively new one, as the true "hardcore collectors" have had decades worth of practice at paying an arm and a leg for the movies that they want in the best possible format (guilty as charged!).

I've paid far more for certain Laserdisc and DVHS titles than I have for any DVD or Blu-ray release, so even if BD 4K releases come in at 50 simoleans each I'll eat 'em up and beg for more.

BD 3D has managed to coexist quite nicely with the standard BD format, and I think 4K will do the same. People keep pointing out that it won't become a standard etc etc, yet I don't think they're bursting any bubbles because no-one here has any illusions on that front. It'll be a niche of a niche for the longest time, but while people are buying them at those inflated prices then it'll chug along in the background.

But I think the people willing to pay that premium now will be fewer this time around than it was during the Laserdisc days, which was already a very, very niche format during it's time.

And part of the appeal of Laserdisc, in addition to the better quality that it had over VHS, were offering the movies in their OAR and included bonus features that at the time were a unique, novel concept that certain people were willing to pay a premium for. Since then DVD and Blu-Ray have brought OAR and bonus features into the mainstream.

I don't really see what they can do to make a new 4K format appealing enough to collectors that they would be willing to pay $50+ per movie if that were in fact to be the price point given that it will comparatively be a much more marginal upgrade than VHS was to Laserdisc. There isn't going to be anything 'novel' like bonus features were at the time of Laserdisc to help sell the format. All that there will be is PQ and only PQ (we already have lossless audio).

I also think that part of the appeal of Laserdisc back at the time that while it came at a premium price at the time, you didn't really need a then-premium set up (i.e. a huge, top quality TV or sound system) to appreciate the advantages over VHS. Sure, those things certainly enhanced the experience further, but they weren't necessary. So while a single movie could cost $50, buying a movie here and there was a lot easier to justify.

With 4K, since it will be all about PQ and only PQ as far as any enhancements over current Blu-Ray go, it will more or less require the best 4K set up one can afford to appreciate it. People already had to get a nice 1080p set up in recent years, so it's a lot to ask.

Not to mention the dependence on the studios actually giving movies proper transfers in the first place. Look at all of the complaints of DNR, etc, that we have now with many releases. Those things will just stand out even more with 4K.

And knowing how these companies operate, it won't be long before they somehow try to sell the next big thing after 4K (8K?). I just think this many years and formats later, it will already be hard enough to get people to buy into another format with pricing akin to what we pay now for Blu-Ray, let alone premium Laserdisc-level prices.

You may be an exception, and there may be a few others out there, but I'm not sure if it's enough of an audience for it to be worth while.

[Geoff D]

I hear what you're saying guys, I do. But 3D proved that a section of the market was willing to upgrade their perfectly good 1080p TVs and BD players, even during these tough economic times, and IF 4K BD is similarly marketed as an extension of the technology, i.e. something to complement rather than replace (at least at the beginning ), then I firmly believe that it'll find its groove.

[Wendell R. Breland]

A damper has just been placed on my hopes of moving on to a Sony VPL-VW600ES 4K projector. The SRP is a fair amount more than some of us thought it would be . Will have to wait and see what the street price turns out to be.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

But I think the people willing to pay that premium now will be fewer this time around than it was during the Laserdisc days, which was already a very, very niche format during it's time.

And part of the appeal of Laserdisc, in addition to the better quality that it had over VHS, were offering the movies in their OAR and included bonus features that at the time were a unique, novel concept that certain people were willing to pay a premium for. Since then DVD and Blu-Ray have brought OAR and bonus features into the mainstream.

I don't really see what they can do to make a new 4K format appealing enough to collectors that they would be willing to pay $50+ per movie if that were in fact to be the price point given that it will comparatively be a much more marginal upgrade than VHS was to Laserdisc. There isn't going to be anything 'novel' like bonus features were at the time of Laserdisc to help sell the format. All that there will be is PQ and only PQ (we already have lossless audio).

I also think that part of the appeal of Laserdisc back at the time that while it came at a premium price at the time, you didn't really need a then-premium set up (i.e. a huge, top quality TV or sound system) to appreciate the advantages over VHS. Sure, those things certainly enhanced the experience further, but they weren't necessary. So while a single movie could cost $50, buying a movie here and there was a lot easier to justify.

With 4K, since it will be all about PQ and only PQ as far as any enhancements over current Blu-Ray go, it will more or less require the best 4K set up one can afford to appreciate it. People already had to get a nice 1080p set up in recent years, so it's a lot to ask.

Not to mention the dependence on the studios actually giving movies proper transfers in the first place. Look at all of the complaints of DNR, etc, that we have now with many releases. Those things will just stand out even more with 4K.

And knowing how these companies operate, it won't be long before they somehow try to sell the next big thing after 4K (8K?). I just think this many years and formats later, it will already be hard enough to get people to buy into another format with pricing akin to what we pay now for Blu-Ray, let alone premium Laserdisc-level prices.

You may be an exception, and there may be a few others out there, but I'm not sure if it's enough of an audience for it to be worth while.

It might grab the 3D crowd, especially if it offers glasses free eventually.
You make it sound like there are only around a dozen people interested in the next level of picture quality IMO. There are always people who want the best.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that this 4K Blu-Ray format would still require the purchasing of a new player to even use the discs (meaning 4K BD discs won't work in existing players). If that is the case, then for all intenstive purposes this is a new format that is separate from Blu-Ray as we know it now, just as the now defunct HD-DVD format was essentially a separate format from DVD.

It will still require upgrading/rebuying equipment the same as any other format that isn't based upon Blu-Ray would be.

The only way that I could see it making a smooth transition is if they could somehow make this 4K BD format work in existing BD players with 1080p output, but require a new player for 4K output. This way if people just want to upgrade their equipment in their "primary" viewing room, they could still watch the same disc in other rooms with regular BD players.

1) just as a note. There is no 4k BD yet, so take the rest with the appropriate grain of salt. Since maybe there won't be a BD 4k format (and for the rest of the discussion I will assume there will be)

2) I see 4K BD like 3D BD. If you consider 3D a different format than so be it, if not than it makes little sense to consider 4K a differewnt format.

3) HD-DVD is a bad analogy. It was a different format, that is why it also had a different name and logo. DVD was a red laser disk based media that was 650nm at one end of the color spectrum and HD-DVD (like BD) was at the other end at blue-purple at 405nm. That difference in technology is why HD-DVD and BD could have a lot more data on the same disk. The reality is that HD-DVD was much more closely related to BD than DVD.

4) your original question is a bit hard to answer, but I am guessing it will more or less be the same as we saw with 3D (since both 4k and 3D where the same fundamental disk as normal BD but with slightly more advanced features in the SW). With 3D (or even PiP and some other features added with each new profile) the Samsung player I bought in Sept 2006 could not handle them, so if I wanted to watch IM3 3D (like I did last night) I would have needed to replace it. My PC where I had a BD drive, meant that I needed to purchase the latest SW for 3D (since it was not a free upgrade). On the other hand my PS3 was freely upgraded and I did not need to replace or purchase anything to be able to watch in 3D.

I see 4K the same way. I would be surprised if most (or even if any) stand alone boxes will be upgraded for 4k, the same way none of them where updated for 3D. I would also not be surprised if I can use my PC with the BD drive I have but that I will need the newer WinDVD that won't be free. And I also won't be surprised if it is a free upgrade for the PS4/XBOne, and depending when it happens even possibly the PS3.