Oh noes teh sky is falling!

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

First, I have no idea what you mean with slipcovers being a negative of physical media. Also I have never heard of anyone making a big deal with deterioration and in my almost 25 years of collecting several thousand CD/DVD/BD I never once had “deterioration” playback issues (I did have one case where I had to wash a disk because it was full of gooey BBQ ribs sauce and once where a friends kid broke a disk because he had a fight with his brother but never deterioration that affected playback). The space argument I have heard before many times but to me it sounds more like an excuse since with a few feet of useless wall space you can have thousands of movies in a space that is useless (i.e. people don’t tend to walk around a room glued to the walls) and even if that is not enough, something like [img] http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...L._AA1500_.jpg [/img] can hold 1000 disks and is 23.5x15.5x7 so unless someone is in jail or the military I don’t get why it would be an issue even in a small apartment.
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Second, why do I like physical media?

1)The main reason is what can be called ownership (why I buy instead of rent) or control. Basically I can watch what I want, where I want, when I want in the quality I want. If I decide to go to my HT now and watch _____ I can, if I want to throw _____ in my car and go watch it at a friends, I can.....
2) Even though this is not a big deal, it is a lot easier and faster to pick a film off a wall than digitally
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Lastly, as for what is not to like with virtual (I prefer that term over digital since CD’s, DVDs, BDs and 4K BDs are digital)
Lets divide it into two parts (even though they don’t need to be distinct.)

Streaming:

Two years ago one of my sister’s bought a new home and moved into it, she was without internet for a few days because when they could be there the cable guy could not and vice versa, same thing happened to a friend that changed ISP, my other sister has a cottage and no internet, so it is easy for me to throw in some BDs and go there and watch them there but we would not be able to stream anything there. What happens when you have internet problems or when the streaming provider has issues (PSN was down for around 3 weeks and last Christmas Netflix was down for a few hours)....

Also what happens when the place you got your film from closes down (plenty of companies go out of business or merge)? What if they lose the contract with the studio (happened a few times already, that is why on places like Netflix there is content that was there at some point but is no longer there), the director decides he prefers the new cut and pulls the old one (or the director/studio decides the film is no longer PC or does not represent their new image)?

Streaming works as a rental but not purchasing but I am not interested in renting

And let’s not forget BW and caps, who will pay for me to bump up both of those so that in the month of Oct I can watch 30-50 horror films in 4k (while my GF watches something else at least for some of those days)?.

DL:

DL might fix what I want when I want (assuming a connection is not needed on playback), but I can’t imagine it would be as easy as putting a BD in my pocket and bring it to my friends to watch it (or like this summer when I went to my sisters cottage for a week and threw 30 BDs in my bag) and so there is an issue with where I want. Also space/cost becomes a big issue fast, how many GB will a 4k movie be, and how much HDD will I need for my eventual collection? a 2TB drive works and space might not be an issue if we are discussing Joe that has a handful of film’s but what happens when it is in the thousands (for example I have over 3k DVDs and well over 1.5k BDs), who will pay for all those 2TB drives I will need (since I will most likely need hundreds of them)? What happens if an HDD drive fails (something that has happened to me three times) or I want to upgrade equipment (and what if the place I got the film from closed down or merged with a different company)?

Slipcovers, digibooks, anthologies (Alien) Trilogies (Lord of the Rings), etc are subject to physical deterioration, no matter how careful you are.

Originally Posted by Anthony P

lol, so if we assume a film being ~100GB (to keep it simple) and someone has 1000 movies you are saying paying for 100 TB worth of disks is not enough, you should go with 200TB for backup?

"Prediction: The cost for 128 kilobytes of memory
will fall below U$100 in the near future.
Creative Computing magazine
December 1981, page 6

At $100 for 128 kilobytes, the price of 256 megabytes comes to $200,000"

In 2013 it costs as little as 6 cents to store a Gigabyte.

A history of storage prices: http://ns1758.ca/winch/winchest.html Also: http://siimcenter.org/books/archivin...s-technologies

The current price of the Sony Media Player is around $700, not much different than the introductory price of the PS3. Current pricing of 4K media and hardware is in the Early Adopter phase. It will come down rapidly as it approaches mainstream. Currently, about 50 Ultra HD movies will fit on the 2 TB Sony Media Player Drive. I have no doubt that we will see more efficient compression algorithms in the future. By the time 4K is mass market, storage costs will probably not be an issue whether you maintain your collection in the cloud or on your own storage system.

If you want the latest and greatest, you do what you have to do. There are always tradeoffs.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Slipcovers, digibooks, anthologies (Alien) Trilogies (Lord of the Rings), etc are subject to physical deterioration, no matter how careful you are.

Not sure what you mean by that statement but I can tell you that I have some LPs that are more than 46 years old and they still look new. Many of my CD's are 30 years old and they look new and play fine. And unlike the Sony FMP-X1 they work with any brand of device that the player is connected to and does not require a internet connection in order to play.

Perhaps you would be more happy in a streaming/downloading forum. This is the Blu-ray forum, no one is forcing you to be here!!

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Not sure what you mean by that statement but I can tell you that I have some LPs that are more than 46 years old and they still look new. Many of my CD's are 30 years old and they look new and play fine. And unlike the Sony FMP-X1 they work with any brand of device that the player is connected to and does not require a internet connection in order to play.

Perhaps you would be more happy in a streaming/downloading forum. This is the Blu-ray forum, no one is forcing you to be here!!

There is page after page and thread after thread in this forum about physical deterioration and issues with BD packaging. This includes damages in shipment, difficulty in tag removal, BDs destroyed by someone trying to repair frayed storage pockets in anthologies with superglue, torn slipcovers etc.

All of those issues cease to exist with streaming and downloading. From the studios perspective, packaging and physical distributing costs are eliminated.

Your last comment is ludicrous. I have been here for several years and I am well aware of what the forum is and is not.

I suggest you go back and read the OP and the first few pages to see how this discussion developed.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

There is page after page and thread after thread in this forum about physical deterioration and issues with BD packaging.

It is just plain silly to try and imply there is a major problem here. I have 400 Blu-ray titles and out of that 400 there was a broken swing holder on a multi disc set and maybe a cracked case or two. No big deal, replacement cases are readily available and cheap. In the early days I detested all the security tapes that were applied to cases. For the most part those have disappeared.

Most of us here have no interest in purchasing titles that are not covered by the First Sale Doctrine. PERIOD

If you want to wave the downloading/streaming flag then you are in the wrong place.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

It is just plain silly to try and imply there is a major problem here. I have 400 Blu-ray titles and out of that 400 there was a broken swing holder on a multi disc set and maybe a cracked case or two. No big deal, replacement cases are readily available and cheap. In the early days I detested all the security tapes that were applied to cases. For the most part those have disappeared.

Most of us here have no interest in purchasing titles that are not covered by the First Sale Doctrine. PERIOD

If you want to wave the downloading/streaming flag then you are in the wrong place.

Agreed. As long as people place them back in the case after watching, there should be no problem. To use that as a pro-streaming argument is clutching at straws in my opinion.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Thanks Steed, I always wondered what she meant.

No problem.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Slipcovers, digibooks, anthologies (Alien) Trilogies (Lord of the Rings), etc are subject to physical deterioration, no matter how careful you are.

I still have absolutely no idea what you are talking about? I have books that are well over 100 years old, I have CDs that are well over 20, can you describe exactly what you mean with a slip or a trilogy can deteriorate. Do you mean a slip can get torn since it is paper? yeah, but honestly I don't care that much about the slips I care about the movie and the easy answer is just don't tear it. As for trilogies and anthologies that is even more incomprehensible, what is the difference to a single movie? Are you talking again of the possible deterioration of the "box" (i.e. some come in cardboard packaging). if so that is the dumbest anti-physical media argument I have ever heard. Paper/cardboard can last almost for ever and even if does "deteriorate" you can just change it packaging.

"Prediction: The cost for 128 kilobytes of memory
will fall below U$100 in the near future.
Creative Computing magazine
December 1981, page 6

At $100 for 128 kilobytes, the price of 256 megabytes comes to $200,000"

In 2013 it costs as little as 6 cents to store a Gigabyte.

A history of storage prices: http://ns1758.ca/winch/winchest.html Also: http://siimcenter.org/books/archivin...s-technologies

The current price of the Sony Media Player is around $700, not much different than the introductory price of the PS3. Current pricing of 4K media and hardware is in the Early Adopter phase. It will come down rapidly as it approaches mainstream. Currently, about 50 Ultra HD movies will fit on the 2 TB Sony Media Player Drive. I have no doubt that we will see more efficient compression algorithms in the future. By the time 4K is mass market, storage costs will probably not be an issue whether you maintain your collection in the cloud or on your own storage system.

If you want the latest and greatest, you do what you have to do. There are always tradeoffs.

I did not say The Sony was expensive. But it is a useless device since it is not supported by all the different studios and only works with a very limited number of TVs. so who cares what it costs only the person that needs to be bleeding edge and a tone of disposable income (or is dumb as rocks) will buy it. It is a stop gap like D-VHS except a lot less useful so it is only good for the person that can't wait a couple of years for a real format and 4that can affords to waste 700$ plus what he pays for the films.

Second, maybe for you it is all about fake resolution and way over compression. But even if we get more efficient codecs I hope that they are used to make a better image and not just to make it a bit worst but a lot smaller.

thirdly. You miss the point. Yes storage will be cheaper with time. I just pointed out the obvious the obvious that you are missing. I go and buy a BD for X$, I don't need to add anything for storage, there is zero extra to it. On the other hand let's say I buy the 100GB 4K DL file, let's use your 6 cents per GB and assume , like you said, I also have a backup, that would mean I need 200GB * 6 cents or simply put 12$ for storage. All I am saying is that only a fool won't add that to the cost of "owning" that film. So if the film on physical media costs 20$ will the studio sell me the DL of the film for let's say 5$ so that it compensates for the 12$ for storage and 3$ of extra ISP costs/film? or would the film really cost me 35$ (20 for the film and 15 for storage)? Even if it becomes less with time and it becomes 12$ or 7$ or 5$ in the future that is immaterial and is still an extremely high premium for DL and when one takes into account that I already paid as low as 2.50$/film for BD (5$ double features from reputable retailers) it becomes an extremely high premium no matter how low the prices per GB become, it only stops becoming an issue when we are in the cents/TB range and any such discussion misses advances in movies (let's face it when DVD came out movies were under 5GB then most under 10GB when BD came out it was under 25GB today most are barely under 50GB and with 4K we are talking 100GB what happens when we move to 4K3d or other advancements (like 60fps instead of 24) that will require even more capacity?

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

There is page after page and thread after thread in this forum about physical deterioration and issues with BD packaging. This includes damages in shipment, difficulty in tag removal, BDs destroyed by someone trying to repair frayed storage pockets in anthologies with superglue, torn slipcovers etc.

but none of that is an issue with physical media, it is an issue with some person that has OCD WRT packaging.


All of those issues cease to exist with streaming and downloading.[/quote]
No they don't. If someone is not happy because they ordered the BD from Amazon and it did not come with a slip and so he is complaining in a thread how is the issue solved? Does every virtual copy come with a slip? after all that is what that guy ants and is complaining about.

From the studios perspective, packaging and physical distributing costs are eliminated.

no, replaced. There will always be distribution costs since they need to be distributed.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

Paper/cardboard can last almost for ever and even if does "deteriorate" you can just change it packaging.

Lots of neat stuff for those that need to replace or just make something different. A good place to start is this Blu-ray.com sticky, here.

ADD: Just noticed that thread has 2,340,452 views.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Lots of neat stuff for those that need to replace or just make something different. A good place to start is this Blu-ray.com sticky, here.

ADD: Just noticed that thread has 2,340,452 views.

I’ve got that beat with a thread that started about a year later and has been locked for over a year. Scroll down to ~ 2,900,000 and counting…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/forumdisplay.php?f=61

And, there’s not one pic of me fondling a blu-ray case.

[raygendreau]

Some wanted to stop with VHS and Beta, some with DVD. Technology and innovation wont wait for you.

Netflix 4K streaming with 15 Mbps connection coming In 2014.

http://www.multichannel.com/distribu...ream-4k/145595


Also : "RMG is shipping 4K content in H.264/MPEG-4 to those screens using a cloud-based platform in tandem with standard Internet connections. And like Sony’s recently launched Video Unlimited 4K service and ODEMAX’s budding 4K movie download offering, RMG’s evolving 4K effort requires a specialized 4K-capable media player at each TV."

http://www.multichannel.com/blogs/ba...aking-flyer-4k

The bigger issue is whether enough people see a difference in BD vs 4K to warrant a move by the industry to begin manufacturing players, etc. I doubt that there will be disc media until it is clear that a market will develop to support it. It is less risky to provide content via streaming and download.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/c...eview/2756083/

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

There is page after page and thread after thread in this forum about physical deterioration and issues with BD packaging.

1st point: I've bought several thousand pieces of disc-based movie/music software during my time on this planet, and of the 5-inch variety I can count the number that have failed on one hand, I kid you not. Laserdiscs were a bit more iffy, but the infamous 'disc rot' was down to poor manufacturing and not a deterioration of the tech itself. My oldest LD is the Criterion version of Invasion Of The Body Snatchers, which is 27 years old. Oldest CD is 25 years. Hell, even my oldest DVD has got 16 years on the clock!

As for packaging problems: shit happens. Whenever things get handled by humans there's a chance of damage or deterioration, that's down to the random chance and inevitable decay that are both inherent to life itself. Sorry to get all philosophical, but the point is that nothing's perfect. With regard to streaming/downloading, what happens if x video service goes down, or your drive fails, or the rights for x movie at x service expire? How do you loan that movie to friends, family or co-workers? Can you sell it on if you don't want it? Et cetera, et cetera...

[cricepng]

If 4K were to rely on a streaming/download model, it will not stand a chance of gaining real support internationally. Most countries do not have unlimited, high-speed, cheap Internet. As it is I cannot afford to stream SD files here in Papua New Guinea as it would cost about $100 and take forever (if it even succeeded at all). While not as expensive in more developed nations like Australia, it is still not really possible in a lot of areas.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by cricepng

While not as expensive in more developed nations like Australia, it is still not really possible in a lot of areas.

I have to apologize for the arrogance that some of my fellow Americans have. Some that live in dense metro areas have a choice of several ISP at competitive prices and seem to think the whole US and world has what they have. I have to pay $60.00 a month for 10 Mbps service. The good part is we have an ISP even tho we are 10 miles from the nearest city.

If the feds were not shut down I would provide you a link showing the speeds available to the US. Click here for average speed as provided by Netflix.

In the US most ISPs are also the multiple channel video providers and IMO, will never provide very high speed internet service at a reasonable rate for fear of their subs dropping the video service and opting for cheap SVOD or OTT service.

[cricepng]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

I have to apologize for the arrogance that some of my fellow Americans have. Some that live in dense metro areas have a choice of several ISP at competitive prices and seem to think the whole US and world has what they have. I have to pay $60.00 a month for 10 Mbps service. The good part is we have an ISP even tho we are 10 miles from the nearest city.

No need to apologize for your fellow Americans as I am also an American who just happens to work with a non-profit overseas.

With my own ability to perceive detail from a given distance, I probably won't be overly concerned with 4K. I definitely won't be dropping the $ on upgrading my BD collection to 4K as I have been doing with my DVD to BD.

But even if 4K is really a big improvement for the average consumer isn't really that important if the industry limits early adopters to those who only live in certain areas and have adequate Internet speeds, caps and reliability.

My last 'furlough' in the States (July 2012 - June 2013) left me unimpressed with the quality of HD streaming media with the higher compression that was needed for it to be downloaded. I can only begin to imagine the compression needed for 4K until the average consumer in the States has adequate Internet for quality f4K streaming.

[mredman]

Wow raygend sounds delusional

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by cricepng

My last 'furlough' in the States (July 2012 - June 2013) left me unimpressed with the quality of HD streaming media with the higher compression that was needed for it to be downloaded. I can only begin to imagine the compression needed for 4K until the average consumer in the States has adequate Internet for quality f4K streaming.

The following quote from above had me

Netflix 4K streaming with 15 Mbps connection coming In 2014.

I will wager that if Netflix does make this available it will be ONLY with ISPs with Open Connect CDNs (same as Netflix Super HD ). The biggies (ISPs) have not signed onto Open Connect. FWIW, my ISP does have Open Connect and it is OK if the original content is top notch.

Have already made reference the 4K compression here. There is a good possibility we will have 100 GB Blu-ray disc in the near future. That would allow a data rate 111 Mbps for a two hour movie. Using H.265 (HEVC) and a 100 GB disc should provide us with some great 4K content, maybe at 48 or 60 fps.

Already saving my quarters because I know the first round of UHD BD players will be expensive and as always, I will be one of the first to over one.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by cricepng

As it is I cannot afford to stream SD files here in Papua New Guinea as it would cost about $100 and take forever (if it even succeeded at all).

Dude, if I lived in PNG, personally, rather than the internet, fast or slow, I’d be spending all my free time diving my butt off - http://www.indopacificimages.com/ind...ain-locations/

But I may be somewhat scuba-biased , as I shot the passes at Rangiroa (in the Tuamotus) and captured it on film with a Bolex 16mm. before many Americans had even heard of the place…..much less dove it.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by mredman

Wow raygend sounds delusional

Depends….maybe not -
“Doubly amazing is the bitrate these movies were being streamed at: less than 10mbps!”
http://www.nscreenmedia.com/1/post/2...broadband.html

P.S.
If the reporter can’t discern a difference between 4k and 1080p at screen sizes less than 55 inches, then he was simply sitting too far away from the screen.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Already saving my quarters because I know the first round of UHD BD players will be expensive and as always, I will be one of the first to over one.

4K Blu-ray will undoubtedly offer the best visual and audio experience…as it does currently for HD content.