Oh noes teh sky is falling!

[pentatonic]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Free speech man.

So then I could call you anything on this forum and it would be fine? Is that it?

Some of you guys need to take a break from your "High Horses" and revisit humanity some.

Anyways, enjoy your ride

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by pentatonic

So then I could call you anything on this forum and it would be fine? Is that it?

Some of you guys need to take a break from your "High Horses" and revisit humanity some.

Anyways, enjoy your ride

Big difference between a generalisation and a personal insult. The masses make comments such as 'computer nerd' or 'geek' to the minority. What is the difference?

People use generalisations all the time. That's the real world. Not every thing is candy floss and high fives all around.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

Also I don't think the word you are looking for is distractions (if people don't care they won't be distracted since they would not pay attention to the differences), maybe trivial is a better word.

You misread that. I wrote distinctions as in 'distinction without a difference'.

Originally Posted by Anthony P

agree on that, the sad truth is there has always been for everything people that care and people that don't. But it seems today everyone just focuses on the mass market sheep and make it a rule.

The 'mass market sheep' might not care to the exact same degree about the exact same things as the self-styled elites but that doesn't mean they don't care at all about quality. And honestly, I don't think there's anything particularly sad about the fact that different people care about different things.

I pay more attention to contrast ratio than does my brother-in-law.

So what?

You could strap me into a Clockwork Orange chair and make me watch a thousand hours of Nascar or Triple Crown races and I still wouldn't be able distinguish a good race from a boring one. To me the boring races would be the ones with the cars or the horses all going in a big circle.

So what?

[pentatonic]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Big difference between a generalisation and a personal insult. The masses make comments such as 'computer nerd' or 'geek' to the minority. What is the difference?

People use generalisations all the time. That's the real world. Not every thing is candy floss and high fives all around.

When one feels clearly superior to the group he/she is "generalizing", then such generalization does indeed take a negative connotation. From there to insult, well....

Also, when this reference is used almost all the time, it does tend to show a certain level of "Elitism", the "Holders of the Truth".

I, for one, don't believe in such class generalization on topics so unimportant in life. Now I'm not saying quality isn't important, I def wouldn't be here and have a personal recording studio at home if I so believed. But I won't go out of my way to make fun of all who own a "stupid little PC with Creative speakers". I have learn to respect differences and welcome it, without differences then everyone would be a "sheep" even you

What is important is that they enjoy movies, not how they do. And as far as I know, and will repeat, the audio world is on a major upswing (just maybe not in your group of friends) and until we witness the death of quality in HT, it is all empty space.

4K UHD is coming along with promised upgrades, and it will happen sooner than most want to admit. Just that since you all believe that without hard content, it's trash. Funny how many reviewers who have spent some time in their homes with UHD seem to really like it, and right now it's only a resolution upgrade.

Add Atmos for the home, and what else do you want? Isn't that enough to convince you that quality is here to stay? Or is BD "good-enough" for you, mister "sheep"?

See where this can lead to?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by pentatonic

When one feels clearly superior to the group he/she is "generalizing", then such generalization does indeed take a negative connotation. From there to insult, well....

Also, when this reference is used almost all the time, it does tend to show a certain level of "Elitism", the "Holders of the Truth".

I, for one, don't believe in such class generalization on topics so unimportant in life. Now I'm not saying quality isn't important, I def wouldn't be here and have a personal recording studio at home if I so believed. But I won't go out of my way to make fun of all who own a "stupid little PC with Creative speakers". I have learn to respect differences and welcome it, without differences then everyone would be a "sheep" even you

What is important is that they enjoy movies, not how they do. And as far as I know, and will repeat, the audio world is on a major upswing (just maybe not in your group of friends) and until we witness the death of quality in HT, it is all empty space.

4K UHD is coming along with promised upgrades, and it will happen sooner than most want to admit. Just that since you all believe that without hard content, it's trash. Funny how many reviewers who have spent some time in their homes with UHD seem to really like it, and right now it's only a resolution upgrade.

Add Atmos for the home, and what else do you want? Isn't that enough to convince you that quality is here to stay? Or is BD "good-enough" for you, mister "sheep"?

See where this can lead to?

I don't feel superior to anyone. Some people just irritate me.

[pentatonic]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I don't feel superior to anyone. Some people just irritate me.

If you say so I'll take your word for it, but honestly, that ain't the way it's coming across at all.

The sad truth though is that by concentrating so much on the gear, many forget about the really important side of it, the content. This is the same for HT and music. And it seems the "sheep" do enjoy the content quite a lot, just not on the same level of gear.

I personally don't feel threatened by this in any way as I know it's only perception and also know that quality is not even remotely out, and if technology permits some to enjoy their content in a cheaper way, I'm all for it, competition is the golden rule for decent prices. If nothing else than BD was HD, seriously, how much do you think it would cost?

[octagon]

Originally Posted by pentatonic

I personally don't feel threatened by this in any way...

Cue 'tvs are about to be replaced by watches' response in five...four...three...

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by pentatonic

If you say so I'll take your word for it, but honestly, that ain't the way it's coming across at all.

The sad truth though is that by concentrating so much on the gear, many forget about the really important side of it, the content. This is the same for HT and music. And it seems the "sheep" do enjoy the content quite a lot, just not on the same level of gear.

I personally don't feel threatened by this in any way as I know it's only perception and also know that quality is not even remotely out, and if technology permits some to enjoy their content in a cheaper way, I'm all for it, competition is the golden rule for decent prices. If nothing else than BD was HD, seriously, how much do you think it would cost?

I don't forget the content. However, that content looks far superior on bluray and a projector/big tv. Why rob myself of that if the content is available at the highest quality. Hope you are not trying to tell me Dark Knight Rises is the same experience on dvd/tablets because It ain't.

[pentatonic]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I don't forget the content. However, that content looks far superior on bluray and a projector/big tv. Why rob myself of that if the content is available at the highest quality. Hope you are not trying to tell me Dark Knight Rises is the same experience on dvd/tablets because It ain't.

Come on, where did I say that DKR is the same, I just said that even if not all use BD, the important is that movies are still watched, just not only on your dear blu-ray. Would you rather the ones who don't do BD to not watch movies at all then? If one can't afford BD or doesn't care for it (and whatever you might add to that is trivial, it's not your budget nor priorities) should they just not watch at all, because it seems that is what you feel is needed. You know, not many people get a break from you, they need to love movies, but only on BD and on the best plasma (because, well, led isn't the best quality after all) or high end pj and obviously an 11.4 setup, because, well anything less just isn't the best. You must have mighty deep pockets or have no other hobbies, I know very few who can afford to always own but the best in all.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by pentatonic

Come on, where did I say that DKR is the same, I just said that even if not all use BD, the important is that movies are still watched, just not only on your dear blu-ray. Would you rather the ones who don't do BD to not watch movies at all then? If one can't afford BD or doesn't care for it (and whatever you might add to that is trivial, it's not your budget nor priorities) should they just not watch at all, because it seems that is what you feel is needed. You know, not many people get a break from you, they need to love movies, but only on BD and on the best plasma (because, well, led isn't the best quality after all) or high end pj and obviously an 11.4 setup, because, well anything less just isn't the best. You must have mighty deep pockets or have no other hobbies, I know very few who can afford to always own but the best in all.

Of course It is better that people watch than not at all. You are putting words in my mouth. Do you want me to say ' yeah, I totally get why people would want to watch movies with compression artefacts spoiling the experience and SD giving everything a jagged edge'?

Now, if there is something I am desperate to see I will watch on DVD or streaming IF that content is not available on bluray.
I speak my mind, always have. I'm not going to change because you or anyone else doesn't like it. After all, you guys aren't shy when it comes to telling me what you think of me. (Or at least my opinions) There have been no personal insults, just general observations from my point of view. I will continue to seek out the best. If that means 4k, bring it on. If it means 8k, bring it on.

[pentatonic]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Of course It is better that people watch than not at all. You are putting words in my mouth. Do you want me to say ' yeah, I totally get why people would want to watch movies with compression artefacts spoiling the experience and SD giving everything a jagged edge'?

Now, if there is something I am desperate to see I will watch on DVD or streaming IF that content is not available on bluray.
I speak my mind, always have. I'm not going to change because you or anyone else doesn't like it. After all, you guys aren't shy when it comes to telling me what you think of me. (Or at least my opinions) There have been no personal insults, just general observations from my point of view. I will continue to seek out the best. If that means 4k, bring it on. If it means 8k, bring it on.

OMG. Nobody wants to deprive you of your right to what you consider the best, and as far as I know nobody told you not to. That would be, well, ridiculous coming from people who do own BDs and usually pretty nice gear (I admit, my collection kinda froze at around 700 and as been in flux since).

And nobody is telling you not to promote BD, all I personally am saying is that because we love BD, not everyone needs to for me to enjoy mine. I couldn't care less what my family, friends and neighbors watch on, it has no incidence on my enjoyment, never did and never will.

Preach quality all you want, this whole site is about that, but don't let yourself feel threatened by the fact some don't share this passion, it takes away absolutely nothing from me and you.

And I'll repeat myself one last time, the more people who do enjoy movies, whatever their preferred format is, well all good, the more consumers, the lower the prices.

My whole point is you seem hellbent on imagining HT is now almost dead, with only some few years left before the sheep take it away from you and your hobby will be gone. Now, I know you know that not to be true, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing all of the new stuff to come would we?

That's the part that got old Steed, not your love of quality. We can all get the quality thing, we are sold on BD already, and I have been since Dec 2006 to tell the truth in my case. But 7 1/2 years later I just don't do the chicken dance anymore every time I fire up the BD player, quite honestly, while still awesome, the initial excitement has kinda came and gone.

So enjoy, promote and all, just stop worrying about others and their influence on your stuff and this idea that they will come and remove your nice stuff from under you.

Cheers

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by octagon

You misread that.

oops, sorry

The 'mass market sheep' might not care to the exact same degree about the exact same things as the self-styled elites but that doesn't mean they don't care at all about quality. And honestly, I don't think there's anything particularly sad about the fact that different people care about different things.

I pay more attention to contrast ratio than does my brother-in-law.

So what?

You could strap me into a Clockwork Orange chair and make me watch a thousand hours of Nascar or Triple Crown races and I still wouldn't be able distinguish a good race from a boring one. To me the boring races would be the ones with the cars or the horses all going in a big circle.

So what?

I did not t say that it is sad that someone doesn't care about PQ. Or even that it is sad someone doesn't care about anything else. I said that the truth that some care and other don't (be it PQ or anything else), that that dichotomy is sad. And I did not mean to imply that it was sad in and of it itself but for the reason I gave right after and you quoted "today everyone just focuses on the mass market sheep and make it a rule."

To put it simply, it is like a kids sports game where it ends "fun/fun" because being honest with the score might make the player on the losing team feel like a loser and so we need to pretend everything is equal when it is not.

Same here. If Joe is OK with a used VHS copy of a film with 10 minutes in the middle overwritten by mistake and decides to say " there is no difference between my VHS copy and BD" we all have to pretend the A/V quality and experience is the same as the brand new BD copy, because if Bob points out that it is wrong and 10 minutesd is important and the AV is no where near the same Bob gets attacked as being a "self-styled elite" that is trying to put down Joe. If no body cared there would be no issues since Joe would not make the BS claim as a justification for why he is OK with his terrible VHS copy since everyone would automatically be OK with it. And if everyone cared Joe would also care and so he would also not be watching the VHS copy and so he would not feel the need to make the BS claim as a justification for why he is OK with his terrible VHS copy

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by pentatonic

Anthony, I'm not going into this, as anyways whatever I say you will feel the need to shoot it down and have the last word. Apologies if this comes off as a personal attack, but it's not, it's only based on my time in this thread.

lol, I asked you four very simple questions but because you know answering them would prove your point is ridiculous you decide to pull the Ad hominem crap.

But just to point out one last thing, I don't have golden ears, nor are golden ears needed, I just know what to listen for, and my experience tells me things from what I can pick up in the sound that someone who doesn't have that same experience will pick up, or even care to try and hear, for most, those "things" are trivial to their enjoyment of music. Enter what is commonly referred to as "the audiophile", with all the hearing loss normal to humans in general.

the problem with that is that if you don't have golden ears (or generally better hearing than I do) then by definition "I hear things you can't even imagine" does not make sense. Why would I need to imagine what I can hear when I can hear it just as clearly as you do?

Well, my point was that the level of interest one has for something, whether it's music, or movies, will often dictate their level of knowledge about it and usually the better informed pick up on these things . For the others, those differences, for lack of a better word, just aren't important to their enjoyment.

agree, but unimportant and none existent are two completely different things, that is what you are missing. If I ever said ....should be important to someone else you would have a point but I never said that, the issue is that you feel that we should pretend they don't exist. I have never been to Antarctica or the north pole but that does not mean that they don't exist just because I never cared to go there.

Why is it so hard to accept that "the sheep" possibly can't tell those things that for you are obvious.

it is not, the issue is when the sheep pretend they don't exist because they want to turn a blind eye and justify their choice with misinformation.

"I watch my VHS tapes because I bought them 20 years ago and I don't want to pay for the film again.": This might be true and even though it won't be my choice there is nothing wrong with it
"I watch X on VHS because X has never been released on DVD or BD and I like watching X"; This might be true and even though it won't be my choice There is nothing wrong with it
"I watch my VHS tapes because there is no A/V difference with the BD (or Netflix or DVD)" is flat out wrong because there is a difference in A/V even if that perso does not care to admit it.

Their enjoyment is the content, not the container

actually you have that backwards, the picture and sound is the content so for the person that says I am OK with (VHS/ DVD/Netflix) it is about the container, for the guy that says I want the best PQ/AQ it is about the content. You can't put, for example, a VHS tape in the VCR, press play and and enjoy the content if the TV the VCR is connected to is off, but you can enjoy the sound of the tape moving and the VCR working while the TV is off.

And for all, please people, stop the use of derogatory expressions for the masses, I'm sure there are plenty of fields where your level of knowledge would make you a sheep, or an idiot, or whatever terms have been used here.

yes there are and I don't mind admitting it when I am a sheep or J6P. It is not derogatory it is the reality.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by pentatonic

When one feels clearly superior to the group he/she is "generalizing", then such generalization does indeed take a negative connotation. From there to insult, well....

so when you said "I hear things you can't even imagine" was that meant as an insult or negative towards me and everyone else?

[pentatonic]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

the problem with that is that if you don't have golden ears (or generally better hearing than I do) then by definition "I hear things you can't even imagine" does not make sense. Why would I need to imagine what I can hear when I can hear it just as clearly as you do?

So you're saying you could as easily as myself tell which kind and brand of effect the guitarist is using, how many tracks are probably involved in the recording. The brand and model of amp, and guitar. The type of reverb applied and micing used. Whether that amp is tube driven, or SS or none and just going through the board?

That is what you are saying, isn't it?

If so, then I do really apologize Anthony and retract everything I could have possibly said.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

so when you said "I hear things you can't even imagine" was that meant as an insult or negative towards me and everyone else?

Elitism maybe? (joke)

Anyway, we all like our high quality and love our home cinema. So we have something in common. I'm calling peace on this one.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by pentatonic

The sad truth though is that by concentrating so much on the gear, many forget about the really important side of it, the content. This is the same for HT and music.

not at all. You are missing that they both go together and are flip sides of the same coin.

crappy content + crappy gear = crappy experience
good content + crappy gear = crappy experience
crappy content + good gear = crappy experience
good content + good gear = good experience

And it seems the "sheep" do enjoy the content quite a lot, just not on the same level of gear.

I disagree. In my experience that is not true. Are many people content with what they have? yes and should they be content? yes it makes life easier. But everyone that I have invited to come to see a movie at my place had their jaw drop to the floor and a few had asked me if I could help them have the same experience in their home (i.e. help them choose gear and how to set it up). There is a reason my 11 year old niece last year and this year asked me if she can have her birthday party at my place instead of her parents place. There is a reason that often times when I have guests and we watch a film they have seen before they say "I never noticed that before".

If you assume someone can have the same experience in front of a 30" TV in the living room as they can in an HT with proper surround and a 10' wide screen, you are bonkers.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by pentatonic

Would you rather the ones who don't do BD to not watch movies at all then?

honestly why should anyone care if others watch movies or not.

[pentatonic]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

not at all. You are missing that they both go together and are flip sides of the same coin.

crappy content + crappy gear = crappy experience
good content + crappy gear = crappy experience
crappy content + good gear = crappy experience
good content + good gear = good experience


I disagree. In my experience that is not true. Are many people content with what they have? yes and should they be content? yes it makes life easier. But everyone that I have invited to come to see a movie at my place had their jaw drop to the floor and a few had asked me if I could help them have the same experience in their home (i.e. help them choose gear and how to set it up). There is a reason my 11 year old niece last year and this year asked me if she can have her birthday party at my place instead of her parents place. There is a reason that often times when I have guests and we watch a film they have seen before they say "I never noticed that before".

If you assume someone can have the same experience in front of a 30" TV in the living room as they can in an HT with proper surround and a 10' wide screen, you are bonkers.

And who gets to determine that level of quality in content and gear? You or the consumer? Do you yourself let others dictate your hobbies and your level of effort in it?

So, all those people who experienced "HT with proper surround and a 10' wide screen" at your place now all own a similar setup?

Originally Posted by Anthony P

honestly why should anyone care if others watch movies or not.

I don't know, you seem to be the one bothered by the choice of others, not I as far as I know.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by pentatonic

So you're saying you could as easily as myself tell which kind and brand of effect the guitarist is using, how many tracks are probably involved in the recording. The brand and model of amp, and guitar. The type of reverb applied and micing used. Whether that amp is tube driven, or SS or none and just going through the board?

That is what you are saying, isn't it?

If so, then I do really apologize Anthony and retract everything I could have possibly said.

but none of that has to do with hearing or audio quality, like your gem example it has to do with knowledge and ignorance outside of what is observable and observed. If something sounds like X and something else like Y and we both have equal hearing and we both say X and Y, then we both heard the same thing. Now if you can say after words we heard X because it is tube driven and Y because it is SS that added piece of info has to do with ignorance or knowledge of the subject matter not what one hears.