HDR Discussion Thread

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I am not at liberty to comment on that ^ ("rubber stamp") at this time. Fellow Insider 2themax is and is better informed than any journalist on the topic.

Yeah, he pretty much confirmed that the BDA would approve it as an optional layer.

[Penton-Man]

I’m informed we are constantly picking up new readers to this thread. With that in mind, and as a refresher to even longtime followers , click the hyperlink in the last paragraph of this post - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...i#post13394723

to get an idea as to the general concept of how HDR10+ and Dolby’s dynamic metadata solutions, respectively, work as explained by the Chairman of Drafting Group Dynamic Metadata for HDR & WCG Color Transforms.

[DanBa]

There was a NTSC-PAL-SECAM color system TV war, not only a technological war but also a geopolitical war.



But in the end, we have NTSC/PAL/SECAM multi-system TV, because the TV manufacturer’s business logic is to sell TV interoperable with any content (video recording media, DVD …).

Some latest TV are NTSC/PAL/SECAM multi-system TV like:
. 77" LG OLED77W7P
https://www.displayspecifications.com/fr/model/309e94d
. 75" Sony XBR-75Z9D
https://www.displayspecifications.com/fr/model/977161b
. 75" Samsung QN75Q9F
https://www.displayspecifications.com/fr/model/e648b0a
. 77" Panasonic TX-77EZ1000
https://www.displayspecifications.com/fr/model/41a5a2d


NTSC/PAL/SECAM multi-system TV and universal multi-HDR TV should have the same controversies, the same history because interoperable TV business logic should prevail.

And what is more - coexistence of different HDR formats within a TV is technically possible, because HDR formats are just software (decoding / mapping software) at the TV level and modern TV are compuTV (computer + TV).
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post50302361

And software development is easier and faster on HDR TV’s modern operating systems than hardware development on legacy NTSC/PAL/SECAM system TV.


I think we, consumers, can’t let "what happens in the industry happens".
After all, we, consumers, pay!
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54606614

Consumers should push for universal HDR TV in the same way audio/video receivers have universal support for audio formats (Dolby Digital / DTS / Dolby Atmos / DTS:X / …).

Thus, it doesn’t matter what HDR format a given program uses; a TV that implements all formats can accommodate the content and display it to its best advantage.

(High-end) universal HDR TV manufacturers should commit to support all operational and being standardized (i.e. via committed upgrade) HDR formats.

[Geoff D]

And yet Sony's US 4K player doesn't play 50Hz content so even if the TV can handle it the player won't, which is its own cautionary tale when it comes to the dynamic HDR formats and their inclusion on 4K players. As with the lack of 50Hz compatiblity in said player, there's no technical or licensing impediment that would restrict x future player from having both HDR10+ and Dolby Vision, it's whether the corporate will is there to include them and I kinda doubt that Samsung and Panasonic want to line Dolby's pockets any time soon. I'm still absolutely amazed that Sony jumped on board with their displays and DV, I really am.

[Penton-Man]

Update to July 23, 2017 quiet heads-up -

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Quietly in the works….HDR broadcast production test to capture and display thee upcoming Blue Crew vs. the Giants battle next Fri.-Sat. at Chavez Ravine....

HDR AND TECHNICOLOR GO TO BAT FOR MAJOR LEAGUE BROADCASTING
August 29, 2017

Technicolor partnered with Spectrum Networks and Charter to deliver the first back-to-back HDR and SDR single production broadcast for MLB fans across the US and UK.



• Technicolor enabled Spectrum Networks to use a single HDR focused production to produce both the HDR and SDR versions of the game, with little incremental investment.
• After extensive testing of all available real-time conversion tools offered by the industry, Advanced HDR by Technicolor was chosen to handle all of the critical conversions, including the down conversion of the HDR production to the commercial SDR broadcast.
• The derived SDR game was commercially distributed nationally and internationally by Charter, British Telecom (BT) Networks, Comcast, Cox, and the Spectrum app.

The Los Angeles Dodgers are having a tremendous season this year leading the MLB standings, and over one exciting weekend, all the action on the field was brought to select viewers in stunning HDR.

Technicolor partnered with Spectrum Networks to produce two back-to-back MLB games as the Los Angeles Dodgers faced National League rivals, the San Francisco Giants. Spectrum Networks has been a leader in implementing live HDR production with Technicolor, having already employed Advanced HDR by Technicolor (Technicolor HDR and Technicolor HDR Intelligent Tone Management (ITM) to deliver the first live end-to-end HDR broadcast of an NBA game between the LA Lakers and Denver Nuggets at the beginning of this year.

For the LA Dodgers broadcast, the entire production and mix were completed in HDR at Dodger Stadium by Spectrum’s standard production crew using equipment provided by NEP, an industry leader in remote live productions and broadcast. Technicolor assisted NEP by converting an Outside Broadcasting (OB) truck with their technology to complete the entire production in HDR. Specifically, Technicolor HDR ITM was integrated to up-convert all the SDR video feeds to HDR and complete the mix in HDR, while Technicolor’s down conversion was leveraged to ensure all of the SDR partner productions and monitors were receiving a proper SDR version of the game.

The contribution feed was fed to Spectrum Networks Network Operations Center (NOC) in El Segundo, CA for simultaneous distribution in both HDR-10 and Technicolor HDR (aka SL-HDR) for select viewers.

To support current commercial broadcasts across the United States and the UK, the SDR output of Advanced HDR by Technicolor was distributed to SDR downstream feeds. This allowed Spectrum Networks to cost effectively produce high quality HDR and SDR versions of the game in a single production with little incremental investment.

The derived SDR game was commercially distributed nationally and internationally by Charter, British Telecom (BT) Networks, Comcast, Cox, and the Spectrum app. HDR cameras that were derived to SDR were also shared and incorporated into separate production for MLB TV and NBC.

[eddievanhalen]

Do you think we will ever get HDR10+ on UHD BD discs?

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

Do you think we will ever get HDR10+ on UHD BD discs?

Yes.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

Do you think we will ever get HDR10+ on UHD BD discs?

Yes, with a major studio supporting HDR10+ and other major studios likely wanting another option in case licensing terms ever become an issue with Dolby Vision I see it easily getting approved.

[PaulGo]

4K TV HDR Gets Even More Complicated With HDR10+ From Amazon and Samsung

http://4k.com/news/4k-video-hdr-gets...samsung-19489/

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Update to July 23, 2017 quiet heads-up -

HDR AND TECHNICOLOR GO TO BAT FOR MAJOR LEAGUE BROADCASTING
August 29, 2017

The contribution feed was fed to Spectrum Networks Network Operations Center (NOC) in El Segundo, CA for simultaneous distribution in both HDR-10 and Technicolor HDR (aka SL-HDR) for select viewers.

And who were these ever so lucky viewers?

[Joce]

What will happen if i am watching a Dolby Vision UHD Blu-ray with a HDR10+ TV/UHD Player ?

[DanBa]

The HDR10 base layer should be played back.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

4K TV HDR Gets Even Better With HDR10+ From Amazon and Samsung

http://4k.com/news/4k-video-hdr-gets...samsung-19489/

Er, that's a story from April. There have been several developments since, posted here over the last few days.
ps. I've fixed the oddly negative slant of the headline.

[Joce]

Originally Posted by DanBa

The HDR10 base layer should be played back.

So it will be stuck with Static Metadata even with a Dynamic display, that s***

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

... Technicolor HDR (aka SL-HDR) ...

Technicolor HDR is an ATSC 3.0 candidate standard along with the ST 2094-10 Dolby Vision.
https://www.atsc.org/standards/candidate-standards/

[d514]

Originally Posted by DanBa

There was a NTSC-PAL-SECAM color system TV war, not only a technological war but also a geopolitical war.

Not really. The main reason for difference in PAL/NTSC was electricity. The US have 120V and 60Hz while most European Countries have 220V/230V and 50Hz. Old CRT TVs used the frequency of the electric current to synchronize the refresh rate of the picture.

Also when the TV systems were introduced no one thought about selling content from Europe to America or vice versa. This wasn't a deliberate decision to prevent other countries from watching foreign TV content.

Today's TVs (and players) rectify any alternating current (50hz/60hz) to direct current (AC to DC) so the frequency of the electricity doesn't matter anymore.

Some latest TV are NTSC/PAL/SECAM multi-system TV like

Almost every TV in Europe is multi-system

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by d514

Not really. The main reason for difference in PAL/NTSC was electricity. The US have 120V and 60Hz while most European Countries have 220V/230V and 50Hz. Old CRT TVs used the frequency of the electric current to synchronize the refresh rate of the picture.

Also when the TV systems were introduced no one thought about selling content from Europe to America or vice versa. This wasn't a deliberate decision to prevent other countries from watching foreign TV content.

Today's TVs (and players) rectify any alternating current (50hz/60hz) to direct current (AC to DC) so the frequency of the electricity doesn't matter anymore.

The main difference between NSTC and PAL is that the phase of part of the color information on the video signal is reversed with each line which automatically corrects phase errors in the transmission of the signal by cancelling them out, hence the name Phase Alternating Line (PAL).

"The way NTSC encodes color meant the signal lost clarity under poor conditions, so early NTSC systems were vulnerable to bad weather, large buildings, especially rough terrain, and other factors. To solve this problem, the PAL video format reverses every second line in the signal, effectively cancelling out errors."
http://learn.corel.com/blog/ntsc-vs-...-which-to-use/


The color TV war is detailed in the following book:
https://books.google.fr/books?id=xfI...%20war&f=false


Whatever technical differences, like a HDR10 TV is incompatible with a Dolby Vision content streamed on Vudu, a SECAM TV is incompatible with a PAL content or with a NTSC content.

At first, many French people were happy with SECAM TV.
Then there were people who wanted also to enjoy PAL DVD and required PAL / SECAM TV.
Then there were people who wanted also to take advantage of NTSC DVD and required NTSC / PAL / SECAM TV.

At the end of the day, it is content that matters most for consumers, not content format.
And the TV maker’s business logic is to meet the consumer requirements.

Originally Posted by d514

Almost every TV in Europe is multi-system

The NTSC/PAL/SECAM compliant TV of the mentioned list of latest TV excepting the Panasonic OLED are for the US market.

[RockyIII]

Originally Posted by Joce

So it will be stuck with Static Metadata even with a Dynamic display, that s***

You need a DV enabled player and TV to play anything in DV. If you only have a UHD w/HDR player and UHD TV all you will get is HDR display

[Joce]

Originally Posted by RockyIII

You need a DV enabled player and TV to play anything in DV. If you only have a UHD w/HDR player and UHD TV all you will get is HDR display

So HDR10+ is useless if 90% of UHD Blu-ray will be in Dolby Vision/HDR10.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Joce

So HDR10+ is useless if 90% of UHD Blu-ray will be in Dolby Vision/HDR10.

90% of the discs will not be DV. Not even close. Close to 100% will, however, be HDR10, in which case you still get glorious PQ.

All of the optional layers (DV, HDR10+, and Technicolor HDR if it ever finds its way onto disc) will account for a very minuscule percentage of UHD blu ray discs.

You have literally no reason to complain.