The Martian 4K UHD (2015)

[saprano]

Originally Posted by roxics

There is a selection of the filmmaking community as a whole that doesn't think we should have 4K TVs yet. A lot of this comes from the fact that most of our 4K cameras are bayer pattern sensors that don't resolve a true 4K with full color. You need a higher resolution sensor that can be downsampled to 4K to get the best 4K image. The only cameras doing that right now are the F65, RED or Super35mm+ film cameras. Which is all fine and dandy if you're a Hollywood filmmaker. But the rest of us are finally getting cameras that can resolve a great 2K image. We're getting those in the form of 4K cameras that aren't great for 4K output but great for 2K output when downsampled.

We're living in an age where display tech is outpacing camera tech. So there are some filmmakers that want to put the brakes on display tech until camera tech catches up. Better a great 2K image than a lousy 4K image.

Basically the same idea that's said to get the best 1080p image.

It's why movies like intersteller, or any other shot with high resolution cameras, should look pretty stunning on 4KBD.

So when do 8K scans start being the norm?

[spectre08]

Originally Posted by saprano

Basically the same idea that's said to get the best 1080p image.

It's why movies like intersteller, or any other shot with high resolution cameras, should look pretty stunning on 4KBD.

So when do 8K scans start being the norm?

8? pff

The guys who made the Journey to Space IMAX movie scanned at 16K

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by ray0414

I think I'd rather purchase a Dolby Vision disc, because dolby seems to want to do everything the best way. At least with dolby you know what your getting. Universal and MGM have signed with dolby so hopefully all of their movies are dolby and not some of them.

Ultimately I'm not worried though. Get yourself a good hdr tv and they will look awesome either way. Some of you guys seem to forget the crappy 27" tvs we had back in the 80s and so forth. This stuff is still pretty cool.

I've been through loads of TVs in my time, the first being a 28" widescreen Sony CRT, but I don't see why I should be grateful just because you're enjoying it. The moaning doesn't stop until my questions about SDR conversion get answered, and even then I can't guarantee my silence...

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by roxics

There is a selection of the filmmaking community as a whole that doesn't think we should have 4K TVs yet. A lot of this comes from the fact that most of our 4K cameras are....

Sounds fascinating.

Who, anyone of note? Where? Documentation? Have they expressed these concerns to any post house supervisor (in Hollywood) in relation to which reference or client monitors to purchase? Do these select filmmakers (as a whole) know, from experience, for instance what Light Iron (a big proponent of 4K finishing and display) has in its color grading suites as opposed to its ‘consumer’ room?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by roxics

There is a selection of the filmmaking community as a whole that doesn't think we should have 4K TVs yet. A lot of this comes from the fact that most of our 4K cameras are bayer pattern sensors that don't resolve a true 4K with full color. You need a higher resolution sensor that can be downsampled to 4K to get the best 4K image. The only cameras doing that right now are the F65, RED or Super35mm+ film cameras. Which is all fine and dandy if you're a Hollywood filmmaker. But the rest of us are finally getting cameras that can resolve a great 2K image. We're getting those in the form of 4K cameras that aren't great for 4K output but great for 2K output when downsampled.

No, you, and apparently others, don’t understand, that has little to do with what I posted. Even with as you say the “F65, *RED* (which one?) or Super35mm+ film camera” or, for that matter, a few you didn’t list - the F55, Red Weapon or Alexa 65,

the point of the past post was that the Engineering (not the marketing V.P., James Finn) of Fox has gone around to more than one professional conference this past year with his *two thumbs rule*

which, although he doesn’t explain its origin to the other professionals in attendance, he uses as a tool to simulate covering your macula (the highest visual acuity portion of the human retina, [eagles I think have two, so I wonder how many thumbs he would use for them ]) of your field of view, see….http://link.brightcove.com/services/...=4259612835001 and ergo, the impracticality of appreciating the resolution at home of even movies captured with cameras boasting “true 4K with full color”.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by roxics

We're living in an age where display tech is outpacing camera tech. So there are some filmmakers that want to put the brakes on display tech until camera tech catches up. Better a great 2K image than a lousy 4K image.

If anything’s outpacing anything contributing to “lousy 4K imagery”, it’s streaming over physical media as the summary of the ITU testing of HEVC Mbps encoding indicates.

Display technology has been living long enough in the truncated 8bit SDR world.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

If anything’s outpacing anything contributing to “lousy 4K imagery”, it’s streaming over physical media as the summary of the ITU testing of HEVC Mbps encoding indicates.

Meaning, as Thomas more precisely and scientifically (as compared to his two thumbs rule ), points out for those of you not having ITU Ties access (e.g. https://www.itu.int/md/R12-WP6C-C/en ), ITU testing of HEVC 4K content (10 different samples/clips) indicated (by subjective assessment with real world viewers rather than analyzing with PSNR, etc.) that 4 out of the 10 clips needed 30 Mbps in order to deliver the benefit of 4K (UHD) resolution.

Worse for current 4K streaming aficionados is that even 40 Mbps wasn’t satisfactory for 2 out of the 10 clips in order to achieve a high opinion score.

[roxics]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sounds fascinating.

Who, anyone of note? Where? Documentation? Have they expressed these concerns to any post house supervisor (in Hollywood) in relation to which reference or client monitors to purchase? Do these select filmmakers (as a whole) know, from experience, for instance what Light Iron (a big proponent of 4K finishing and display) has in its color grading suites as opposed to its ‘consumer’ room?

A selection of the filmmaking community. Not all of which release films through major studios. There are a lot of indie filmmakers out there who voice their concerns as well. So this is what I've heard from them. That is who I am speaking about. These are people who are not shooting with over 4K cameras.
I'm sure you're speaking from a Hollywood perspective, which I fully believe will push the limits as much as they can. But at their budgets, they can. Yet they don't represent the whole filmmaking community around the world, even if they are the major players.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

No, you, and apparently others, don’t understand, that has little to do with what I posted. Even with as you say the “F65, *RED* (which one?) or Super35mm+ film camera” or, for that matter, a few you didn’t list - the F55, Red Weapon or Alexa 65,

Any camera above 4K (including any RED above 4K) that can be downsampled to a full color 4K image. It's the nature of the bayer pattern sensor. You need higher resolution to get full color. If these were 3 chip cameras that would be a different situation. It's the reason why cameras like the F65 downsample from higher res. Same with the older Genesis/F35 to 2K.

[roxics]

Originally Posted by saprano

Basically the same idea that's said to get the best 1080p image.

It's why movies like intersteller, or any other shot with high resolution cameras, should look pretty stunning on 4KBD.

So when do 8K scans start being the norm?

There are already 8K scans being done out there, usually to produce a lower res image. Film is often scanned higher to produce a better image when downsampled, like digital.

But the push to 8K displays I think will have a limited content base. You can scan S35 or any film content to 8K or higher, but that doesn't necessarily mean you'll get any more information out of it watching it in 8K. 65mm and IMAX will be the only formats that would benefit from an 8K output and there isn't a ton of that out there. Some older films, The Hateful Eight, parts of newer films shot in IMAX.

But until we get newer cameras shooting higher than 8K res bayer sensors, I don't see a lot of benefit in 8K monitors. Outside of perhaps shooting scenarios where you are shooting 8K on location and want to see the complete resolution of something like the new RED Weapon 8K.

I think we'll eventually get to 8K. But it will take a while because the content just isn't there. I think it will actually be more useful for virtual reality situations than flat screen presentations.

[dvdmike]

Problem is the 6k plus scans are not stored or worked on as such

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by roxics

A selection of the filmmaking community. Not all of which release films through major studios. There are a lot of indie filmmakers out there who voice their concerns as well. So this is what I've heard from them. That is who I am speaking about. These are people who are not shooting with over 4K cameras.

If you check my posting history, on and off over the years, I’ve attended the Spirit Awards… https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post11629977
which I consider to be pretty grass roots . Do they meet and talk there?

Do they have a linkedin group, user group, mailing list? Are they Local 600 members hanging out somewhere? Anything where I can read their (no offense, but more than one voice) concerns?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by roxics

Any camera above 4K (including any RED above 4K) that can be downsampled to a full color 4K image. It's the nature of the bayer pattern sensor....

That bolded phrase was a pun . RED One (far from 4K rez).I think I’m up on the topic and been following for quite some time.

Even remember some of the presentation by John Galt and Larry Thorpe at HPA 2008. Check it out, it may be on YouTube or Vimeo.

[roxics]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

If you check my posting history, on and off over the years, I’ve attended the Spirit Awards… https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post11629977
which I consider to be pretty grass roots . Do they meet and talk there?

Do they have a linkedin group, user group, mailing list? Are they Local 600 members hanging out somewhere? Anything where I can read their (no offense, but more than one voice) concerns?

I'm not checking your posting history because I wasn't targeting anything you said to begin with when I made my original reply. Though I'm getting the impression you think I was. I have no idea who you are. I'm not attacking anything you ever said or your credibility as I wasn't addressing you to begin with. My statement holds true whether you believe me or not. I wasn't documenting every conversation so that one day I could provide evidence to someone who comes asking for it. You either believe these are things I've heard or you don't. Doesn't matter to me.

My original statement was that a selection of the filmmaking community thinks it's too soon for people to be adopting 4K tvs. Which is true. How big that selection is, I have no idea. These are things I've heard over the last couple of years from folks online and offline who make films and shoot videos, typically in casual conversation. No commitees or meetups or industry lectures, just casual conversation. Yet the logic holds why they would think that way. Until we can get more than just the highest end cameras capable of downsampling to a nice 4K image, the push to 4K tvs is a little soon. We're just now getting good 2K cameras in the form of lower end 4K cameras that can be downsampled to 2K.

I wasn't stating my own position either, just things I've heard. My own position is that UHD tvs are great and everyone else will catch up in time. Personally I just want more dynamic range and higher bit depth images on the lower end cameras. I'm fine mastering to 2K for the next five years or so as I think even that content can still look great even on a UHD set and I don't think most people can tell the difference anyway.

[Opips3]

It's just a hobby as simple collection.

-hardcore
-casual
-cheap

Avg. person buy most DVDs is as simple collection movies. refused to bluray.

Who is enjoy watch a movie?

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by roxics

My original statement was that a selection of the filmmaking community thinks it's too soon for people to be adopting 4K tvs.

It's because they don't want to spend the money for an end-to-end 4K pipeline. But as more sets are sold, demand will increase for true 4K content. They weren't ready for HDTV, they weren't ready for 5.1 audio. Their pocketbooks are really the ones who think it's too soon for 4K.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

It's because they don't want to spend the money for an end-to-end 4K pipeline. But as more sets are sold, demand will increase for true 4K content. They weren't ready for HDTV, they weren't ready for 5.1 audio. Their pocketbooks are really the ones who think it's too soon for 4K.

I agree. Consumers will need to force the change. Same things happen in politics, usually major changes don't happen unless there's an outcry from the bottom.

I read yesterday that a true 4k digital Intermediate master takes up almost 15 TB of space!!

[Opips3]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

It's because they don't want to spend the money for an end-to-end 4K pipeline. But as more sets are sold, demand will increase for true 4K content. They weren't ready for HDTV, they weren't ready for 5.1 audio. Their pocketbooks are really the ones who think it's too soon for 4K.

So, same as Audiophile spend the money for an end to end Vinyl or SACD pipeline.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by roxics

I'm not checking your posting history because I wasn't targeting anything you said to begin with when I made my original reply. Though I'm getting the impression you think I was....

no, sorry, wrong impression. good conversation.

just looking to find out if there was any centralized online discussion group wrt your sentiments. the spirit awards reference was more to show i care about what goes on *outside* hollywood too e.g., otherwise i wouldn’t have posted this back when it happened - http://www.lachsa.net/apps/news/show...ID=371519&id=0

(https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...a#post11376015)

[Pieter V]

I asked a mod to add this picture to First Post.

[katiehlvr2]

Yea. And I guess the SDR set owners can kick rocks.