HDR Discussion Thread

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by DanBa

According to Scott Wilkinson, Netflix is using ICtCp for its Dolby Vision titles.
http://www.avsforum.com/dolby-demons...el-smpte-2017/

As I mentioned earlier, YCbCr is used in virtually all consumer video at this point. The only exception I know of is Netflix, which uses ICtCp for its Dolby Vision titles. ICtCp has been proposed for ATSC 3.0, the next-generation standard for over-the-air broadcasting. However, it is not included in the UHD Blu-ray spec.

The last sentence bummed me out.
Any chance this can be added.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by DanBa

According to Scott Wilkinson, Netflix is using ICtCp for its Dolby Vision titles.
http://www.avsforum.com/dolby-demons...el-smpte-2017/

Read the article and the comparisons helped with some understanding about the differences.

At my house, still waiting on Sony to send that firmware update so I can try this out on our Zed. Another post in a thread recommended watching Stranger Things in DV instead of HDR10. After this much waiting, Sony better not screw the pooch and botch the DV implementation.........

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Which when you think about it, is kinda amazing given the very limited face time (in minutes) this thread generally occupies at the top of the totem pole in the Ultra HD Blu-ray and 4K Hardware and Technology subforum with all the device proponents/users being so expeditiously active.

All the “In the in the know members/viewers” understand that this is the go to thread among all the home video web sites.

[zmarty]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Looking forward to it . The source file provided to you is apparently trimmed down (maxCLL) from a previous iteration generated earlier this year for picture quality evaluation

It seems it's a new version. They told me they created an HDR10 version. The filename has YouTube in the name and the file size is right below the maximum file size YouTube supports. So it seems they specifically created this version for YouTube. I am pleased they sent it to me.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

Samsung

I like Italy (proposed to my wife there) and also like all living creatures …..

Real 4K HDR 60fps: Travel With My Pet in HDR - YouTube

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I like Italy (proposed to my wife there) and also like all living creatures …..

Real 4K HDR 60fps: Travel With My Pet in HDR - YouTube

Great looking HDR video.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

According to Scott Wilkinson, Netflix is using ICtCp for its Dolby Vision titles.
http://www.avsforum.com/dolby-demons...el-smpte-2017/

Not only Jaclyn , but to give credit where credit is due to all the original researchers/investigators into the concept of ICtCp –

Jan Froehlich; Dolby Laboratories Inc.; Sunnyvale, USA & University of Stuttgart; Stuttgart, Germany
Timo Kunkel; Dolby Laboratories Inc.; Sunnyvale, USA
Robin Atkins; Dolby Laboratories Inc.; Sunnyvale, USA
Jaclyn Pytlarz; Dolby Laboratories Inc.; Sunnyvale, USA
Scott Daly; Dolby Laboratories Inc.; Sunnyvale, USA
Andreas Schilling; University of Tübingen; Tübingen, Germany
Bernd Eberhardt; Stuttgart Media University; Stuttgart, Germany

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

All the “In the in the know members/viewers” understand that this is the go to thread among all the home video web sites.

We strive to keep our readers informed as much as possible ahead of the rest of the online pack, even regarding cutting edge color spaces, for example, from 2-19-2016 (I quickly shortened ICtCp to ICC (without subscripts in response to Richard) - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...c#post11886102

Lunchtime over for me, later.

[Staying Salty]

Netflix is using ICtCp for its Dolby Vision products. Can a HDR10 only display use the ICtCp information on the Dolby Vision encode or do you need a Dolby Vision display to take advantage of it?

What would be the obstacles to updating the Blu-ray spec to include ICtCp?

The 4K Blu-ray disc cannot afford to cede any technical advantages to streaming IMO.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

Netflix is using ICtCp for its Dolby Vision products. Can a HDR10 only display use the ICtCp information on the Dolby Vision encode or do you need a Dolby Vision display to take advantage of it?

What would be the obstacles to updating the Blu-ray spec to include ICtCp?

The 4K Blu-ray disc cannot afford to cede any technical advantages to streaming IMO.

Richard ( https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...p#post11903832 )
you around? Join the conversation and chime in to Salty . Among others here, you’re qualified. I’m on a Dodgers high and am organizing a viewing party for the forced Game 7 tomorrow.

As an aside, on a non-technical note so as not to bore other less technically minded readership and test the movie location acumen of our movie fans, that particular JCTVC-W0050 (click on blue) information document about ICtCp color representation which Richard referenced was submitted to a meeting which took place just up the road from where this scene (at the 53 sec timestamp) in Mr. Jones was shot -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVKtVrNjNWs#t=53s - a fine research institute.
Anyone recognize?

P.S.
Salty, as far as content providers learning about the advantage(s) of ICtCp, that particular meeting in early 2016 included, if memory serves, knowledgeable representatives from Disney, Technicolor, Apple, Samsung, BBC, Netflix, Dolby, of course and MovieLabs - http://movielabs.com/who-we-are/partners/ some attendees of which actually participated in challenging various aspects of ICtCp, so it’s not like this is totally new to CTOs of studios and other content providers. Even some gamer dudes work with it.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

Netflix is using ICtCp for its Dolby Vision products. Can a HDR10 only display use the ICtCp information ? ...

I am not an expert, but as far as I understand from documents found on Internet:

. No, for the time being

. Yes, when the support of ICtCp color coding representation will be added into the different HDR10 standards (CTA, DECE …).

For the time being, the color is encoded in YCbCr, and therefore has to be decoded in YCbCr in accordance with the different HDR10 open standards.

According to what is mentioned by Scott Wilkinson about Netflix’s Dolby Vision titles, a Dolby Vision TV can decode in ICtCp when streaming Netflix or in YCbCr when playing UHD Blu-ray discs for example.



ICtCp is patented by Dolby.
https://www.google.com/patents/WO2017024042A2?cl=en

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by DanBa

I am not an expert, but as far as I understand from documents found on Internet:

. No, for the time being

. Yes, when the support of ICtCp color coding representation will be added into the different HDR10 standards (CTA, DECE …).

For the time being, the color is encoded in YCbCr, and therefore has to be decoded in YCbCr in accordance with the different HDR10 open standards.

According to what is mentioned by Scott Wilkinson about Netflix’s Dolby Vision titles, a Dolby Vision TV can decode in ICtCp when streaming Netflix or in YCbCr when playing UHD Blu-ray discs for example.



ICtCp is patented by Dolby.
https://www.google.com/patents/WO2017024042A2?cl=en

Scott Wilkinson's article literally says that most TVs other than DV TVs can decode ICtCp. There's absolutely nothing about ICtCp that is exclusive to DV TVs.

[HeatEquation]

Oh, and from an insider on AVS Forum:

Incidentally, my sources tell me that if the BDA chooses to add HDR10 Plus to the standards for UHD Blu-Ray discs, it could eventually replace HDR10 as the mandatory standard for such discs. Dolby Vision would, of course, remain an optional format to be implemented as desired by content providers on a per title basis.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post55051930

[2themax]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Oh, and from an insider on AVS Forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post55051930

I trust Ruby's info, but I've seen zero indication of this myself.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by 2themax

I trust Ruby's info, but I've seen zero indication of this myself.

Is it possible that making it the base mandatory layer has just started being discussed recently? There was talk that HDR10+ was fully backwards compatible with HDR10, so it would make sense. Not sure how that would work with DV, since right now, the DV layer sits on top of HDR10 on disc.

Edit: it does seem to be a recent development, as last week Rudy was saying that HDR10+ may just be an optional layer.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Scott Wilkinson's article literally says that most TVs other than DV TVs can decode ICtCp. There's absolutely nothing about ICtCp that is exclusive to DV TVs.

I didn’t say that ICtCp is exclusive to Dolby Vision TV.

ICtCp is just a color coding representation as well as YCbCr.

For example, for the time being ATSC 3.0 supports only YCbCr:
6.3.2.2 PQ transfer characteristics
For HDR video with the PQ transfer characteristics, the following constraints apply:
Each SPS shall have matrix_coeffs present and set equal to 9. This constrains the matrix coefficients to non-constant luminance Y′CbCr as defined in ITU-R BT.2100 [23]
https://www.atsc.org/wp-content/uplo...Video-HEVC.pdf

If ICtCp will be approved by the ATSC on January 2018, the previous sentence should be as follows:
Each SPS shall have matrix_coeffs present and set equal to 9 or 14. This constrains the matrix coefficients to non-constant luminance Y′CBCR or constant intensity ICTCP, respectively, as defined in ITU-R BT.2100.
https://www.atsc.org/wp-content/uplo...ment-ICtCp.pdf

For the time being, the different HDR10 specifications support only YCbCr.
Even if some HDR10 developers decide to implement ICtCp on the encoder side or on the decoder side, they don’t know what is the precise ICtCp attribute or matrix_coeffs to use, they have to wait for the approval of the enhanced HDR10 specifications.

[2themax]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Is it possible that making it the base mandatory layer has just started being discussed recently? There was talk that HDR10+ was fully backwards compatible with HDR10, so it would make sense. Not sure how that would work with DV, since right now, the DV layer sits on top of HDR10 on disc.

Edit: it does seem to be a recent development, as last week Rudy was saying that HDR10+ may just be an optional layer.

Maybe there are talks about it but nothing official. And that's getting way ahead of things anyways. It hasn't even been finalized as an optional format yet.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by 2themax

Maybe there are talks about it but nothing official. And that's getting way ahead of things anyways. It hasn't even been finalized as an optional format yet.

This is true, but most people close to the situation feel as though it will happen in January. Vincent Teoh said he spoke with several people at IFA who told him this.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

I remember reading a while ago that the trial/demo on the iPlayer was only made available to Panasonic TVs. That would explain why it cannot be played on your TV.

Yes, I realised that, for the time that it was first done. Also it wasn't just Panasonic - the list is here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/help/p...lanet_earth_4k

But that was a long time ago now. I fully expect the BBC, as and when more and more TVs support HLG, to make 4k iPlayer HDR available to those TVs. So far this hasn't happened and as a BBC Licence Fee payer, they are accountable to me! It's not good enough: they should be constantly widening support for more and more TVs all the time.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

i’ll be busy at the upcoming SMPTE annual technical conference & exhibition....also expect long delays in answering any pm’s, sorry.

^ These should be the last 2 pm’s in my inbox, which came in today, so with these I think I’m caught up. To those that may have gone unanswered, I’m not at liberty to say yea or nay….or for that matter anything (NDA).

Last two, which some may be interested about -
Member asks:
Wuz up with this Penton? - https://www.dvdfab.cn/promotion.htm?...homebanner2#d1
Ans. – try the free beta, then get back to me.