Netflix Turns Focus Back to Disc

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by wormraper

oh don't worry, I do both. I already write my congressmen and when I had a company that had crappy service like that I quit them and moved to a company with no limitations like that.

AND I complain on blu-ray.com. it's a beautiful world isn't it.

since this is a DISCUSSION forum I see no reason not to

Talking about internet caps on the "Netflix turns focus back to disc" thread is like talking Disney movies on the anime thread. But if you feel so obliged!
Glad to see you write your Congressperson. Also it's nice to have options...some countries don't offer many options - on a wide vareity of things!

[slick1ru2]

Originally Posted by rickah88

So you have 2 options:
Agree to pay, or don't! It's that simple.
If you don't agree, then you can write your Congressperson and hope for the best.
Also a distant 3rd option is complaining about it on blu-ray.com forums...although I don't know much of a fix to the problem that will provide!

Me personally, I have 36mpbs down and no cap. I have 24 hr tech support and priority packets through the ISP. I have no issues. But when I do, I complain to my ISP. I complain on DSLReports.com when complaining to the company doesn't get results. The last time I did that I was contacted by the company's director of marketing who had the head of technical support in my house 2 hours later. Issue fixed. But for those that have issues with their ISP, I would go to the company first, DLSReports second, the FCC third and their congressman last. I would also search the net for petitions and other info on the problem, be it caps or throttling.

Originally Posted by rickah88

Talking about internet caps on the "Netflix turns focus back to disc" thread is like talking Disney movies on the anime thread. But if you feel so obliged!
Glad to see you write your Congressperson. Also it's nice to have options...some countries don't offer many options - on a wide vareity of things!

Caps is the biggest threat to NetFlix's streaming business, which is bigger than its disc side. Whoever wrote the title for this thread was dreaming. NetFlix is a streaming company that also rents discs.

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by slick1ru2

Me personally, I have 36mpbs down and no cap. I have 24 hr tech support and priority packets through the ISP. I have no issues. But when I do, I complain to my ISP. I complain on DSLReports.com when complaining to the company doesn't get results. The last time I did that I was contacted by the company's director of marketing who had the head of technical support in my house 2 hours later. Issue fixed. But for those that have issues with their ISP, I would go to the company first, DLSReports second, the FCC third and their congressman last. I would also search the net for petitions and other info on the problem, be it caps or throttling.

I don't disagree with any of that...perhaps you should start a thread pertaining to such matters!

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by slick1ru2

Caps is the biggest threat to NetFlix's streaming business, which is bigger than its disc side. Whoever wrote the title for this thread was dreaming. NetFlix is a streaming company that also rents discs.

So what, that's neither here nor there, the thread is what the thread is. Do you think every thread should be tailored just the way you see fit? Feeling elitist are we?

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by wormraper

sorry, been to Korea, Japan, Austria, Italy etc.. I've seen bandwidth that just RIPS us to SHREDS,

agree with that especialy with Korea, I said as much in my previous post. But

no caps.

that is wrong, I already pointed out in my previous post that there is definetly a cap with at least some ISPs in Japan, here is a user in Japan complaining about it in English http://www.okinawajapanforum.com/showthread.php?t=18690


The issue is that unless it is in an English speaking country it will be hard to find the information, what is the German or Italian or Korean word for cap? even looking at ISP web pages it might not be obvious if they do or doon't have caps because of the language barier. Second as I pointed out before there are all sorts of caps out there. There are hard cps like Comcasts "go beyond 250GB and
you are out" or AT&Ts "pass a certain number of GB and we charge extra" but there re also soft caps, numbers that don't appear at first but are programmed in to the system and only show up when a user reaqches that point, like when in the UK it says limitless in big leeters but "fair use policy" in small ones.

The U.S. has NOT upgraded it's infrastructure for years.

not at all, look at the quarterly statements of any network provider any place in the world and you will be hard press not to see billions of dollars a year in upgraded infrastructure. The problem is that unlike Japan or Korea (or even Italy and Austria) Canada and the US are BIG countries with small populations, so there needs to be a lot more network for fewer users, that makes it more expensive and harder, that is why you also tend to see more upgrades in more urban areas.

believe me this has become a BIG problem.

agree, the only issue is that it will only become bigger. The guy watching Youtube at 1/3GB/h does not compare to the person streaming at 2GB/h and it is not even close to 10 GB/h for something like BD quality.

they keep adding customers and taking hte profits not cycling them back in for upgrades.

adding customers? we are 2011 the number of internet/broadband users is not really growing anymore in first world countries like the US, that is part of the issue. Joe went from looking at a web page that was 100% text and several kB at most to wanting to watch a movie but does not want to pay more for it. Isn’t that the issue here? People crying because they will use a lot more W and will have to pay for it because of caps.

Australia Caps EVERYTHING, they are one of the worst socialist nations in the world

lol, you do realize some of the countries you mentioned like Italy are way more socialist. Actually that is part of the issue, in Japan, Korea and Italy, it is the government that foot the bill for the infrastructure which is why the ISPs can be so cheap.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Speed is immaterial? I don't think so. Go back to using a 28.8 modem and see if you don't kill yourself while waiting an hour for a single screen to appear.

agree, I might not have made myself clear. Slick is trying to make the point that 15 years ago you paid 20$ and had an internet connection with 56k dial up. Today he is paying 3x as much (and incredibly big price increase when you compare it to inflation) but you also get much more in BW. The issue is that you don't compare things that way. If I wanted to have a horse and buggy, I could not use it to go to work, I live in Brossard on the south shore of the St Lawrence and my work is in DT Montreal where I would need to cross a bridge that has a min speed limit, a few years ago there was a massive ice storm power around Montreal was lost for several days in most places and weeks in some, the house I lived in was built in the 70's there was no fire place so a day and a bit after I lost power I had to empty the water pipes and move out because the oil furnace needs electricity in order to work and so the house become unliveable. The point is simply that times change and what is needed to have a similar life style is different. Back when I started using the internet dial up worked well, it was years before Mosaic (that was the precursor to the modern day browser for those that don't know) and so the "web" was just a bunch of text so a web page was only a few KB. Like you said 28.8 was good enough to surf the net and e-mail back then but to surf the web today and e-mail today you need a lot more and it would be impossible at those old speeds. That is why when the government calculates inflation they don't say " what is needed today for a horse and buggy, a PC based on the 286 processor a 20" CRT TV....... but what is needed at this time by the average person for all of those things and many more. Yes a loaf of bread is a loaf of bread is a loaf of bread but many things that most people use have changed over the last 10, 20, 30, 40.... years and so we need to compare similar things and not the same things. That is what I meant by speed is irrelevant. You can’t really surf the web and read e-mails today with dial up, so who cares if (like slick said) the speed you get today is 1000x better if in the end of it you get a similar experience. It would be as nuts as me saying BD has more than 6x the resolution of DVD and pretending that what would be normal is for BD prices to be over 6x the price of DVD. In that discussion resolution is immaterial since we are discussing the price of watching a movie.

What should be compared is what was the basic/average/high end price of an internet connection back then and compare it to what the similar package is today, and if you do that the reality is that the price of an internet connection has increased a hell of a lot compared to inflation. The need is because we want more BW and the telcos need to pay big bucks in order to bring it to us and the money spent is passed on to consumers, so I am not blaming them. But we need to be realistic and the price of an internet connection has increased dramatically over the years and it is this constant need of more BW that is driving it.

I'm old enough to remember the earliest online systems, such as Venture One, which was a joint venture between IBM, Sears and CBS, if I recall correctly. You would watch one letter appear on the screen at a time. Literally.

don’t know about Venture one, my earliest home connection was my dad’s free college (he was a professor) access. And it was no where nearly as slow as you mention, first of all “one letter at a time” does not even make sense since an IP packet would have several characters in it.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by wormraper

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, do they do that with our TV??? no, yet BECAUSE of TV (that's where A LOT of this bandwidth is going) they are trying it now.

I have no idea what your point is, but at least here, OTA TV (most limited choice) is free, basic cable/sat you pay more and if you want some of the speciality channels you pay even more and then there is PPV and stuff that is even more. So I can't see where I have to pay for the guy tht wants to watch a PPV movie or the playboy channel, but somehow you think that I should have to pay because you do the same thing on-line.

higher speeds = more usage,

higher speed means higher speed, you say you have a 12MB link, mine is higher then that (I need the 30mbps link because I work from home some times), on the other hand you say you use something like 500GB a month, I don't use anywhere near that mine has a cap which is a fraction of that and I come no where near that usage (well below 100GB each month).

and netflix is looking at increasing it's rez to 1080p!!!

Netflix already offers a sad version of 1080p, it has for a long time.

sizes CONSTANTLY increase at exponential rates. adjusting the prices per gig would be a constantly moving (and erratic) target.

why would there need to be a constant adjustment in price?

lets do something simple

Comcast 250GB limit, if they decide that their network can handle 30GB limit next month how hard is it to just change that limit and if in 2 years they decide 500GB how hard is that?

AT&T has a 150GB limit and 10$ for each 50GB how hard would it be in a few months or years to make it a 200GB limit if the network can handle it? how about making it 5$ for 50GB or 75GB for 10$..... none of these need to change on a regular basis.

where size is constantly getting larger, constantly increasing and more size is inevitable. In the tech and web industry surges of double and triple filesizes in a few months can be pretty standard

agree and that is the issue. Let' say today Joe uses x, and doubling for Joe is every 6 months in a year it is 2x that he needs, in 1.5y it is 4x, in 2y it is 8x, in 2.5y it is 16x, in 3y it is 32x, in 3.5y it is 64x, in 4y it is 128x in 4.5y he needs 256x, in 5y 512x, in 5.5y it is 1024x and in 6y 2048x . Now let's see what happens if doubling is every year for Joe in a year it is 2x ,in 2y it is 4x, in 3y it is 8x, in 4y it is 16x, in 5y it is 32x and in 6y it is 64x. and if it is 1.5y we have in 1.5y it is 2x, in 3y it is 4x, in 4.5y it is 8x and in 6y it is 16x.


If Joe is the average user and not a single person doubling every 6 months means that in 6y the network will need to be able to support 2048x the traffic it does today in order for people to have the equivalent experience as they have today on the other hand if the need doubles every year (it is assumed to be a bit faster than that with some pegging it as low as 8months) in 6 years there will be 64 times the traffic on the internet but if "Joe" can be slowed down so that traffic doubles every 1.5y in 6y it will be 16x what it is today. A real small change in doubling period (we went from 6 months to 1y and to 1.5y) makes a real big difference in the infrastructure needed even in a short period like 6y (right 16x -64x- 2048x compared to what we have today is a big difference)

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I have no idea what your point is, but at least here, OTA TV (most limited choice) is free, basic cable/sat you pay more and if you want some of the speciality channels you pay even more and then there is PPV and stuff that is even more. So I can't see where I have to pay for the guy tht wants to watch a PPV movie or the playboy channel, but somehow you think that I should have to pay because you do the same thing on-line.

the point of that was this. we have different tiers of Tv, free ota, cable, higher levels of cable etc, just as you listed. but they don't charge us for watching MORE tv than a certain amount of hours. if I watch 50 hours of TV a month vs. if I watch 200 hours of tv a month I pay the same amount. Just like bandwidth, I can get a 15 mpbs tier, a 7 a 12 a 20 and a 40 mbps tier. and I don't pay more for using 10 gigs a month or 1000 gigs a month. same comparison


higher speed means higher speed, you say you have a 12MB link, mine is higher then that (I need the 30mbps link because I work from home some times), on the other hand you say you use something like 500GB a month, I don't use anywhere near that mine has a cap which is a fraction of that and I come no where near that usage (well below 100GB each month).

Higher speeds mean download faster and faster allowing more download in the same amount of time. I no longer have to wait 40 minutes for a 3 gig download. I can do 6 gigs in that 40 minutes

Netflix already offers a sad version of 1080p, it has for a long time.

lol, yeah unfortunately, but they are going to be upping their bitrate for these files and 99% of their stuff is in 720p right now, not 1080p


why would there need to be a constant adjustment in price?

lets do something simple

Comcast 250GB limit, if they decide that their network can handle 30GB limit next month how hard is it to just change that limit and if in 2 years they decide 500GB how hard is that?

AT&T has a 150GB limit and 10$ for each 50GB how hard would it be in a few months or years to make it a 200GB limit if the network can handle it? how about making it 5$ for 50GB or 75GB for 10$..... none of these need to change on a regular basis.

Same thing really. it is REALLY nasty for a company to be constantly changing you cap (and thus your service agreement) every few months. it's ridiculous when they can just charge a service charge for your monthly fee and leave it at that

agree and that is the issue. Let' say today Joe uses x, and doubling for Joe is every 6 months in a year it is 2x that he needs, in 1.5y it is 4x, in 2y it is 8x, in 2.5y it is 16x, in 3y it is 32x, in 3.5y it is 64x, in 4y it is 128x in 4.5y he needs 256x, in 5y 512x, in 5.5y it is 1024x and in 6y 2048x . Now let's see what happens if doubling is every year for Joe in a year it is 2x ,in 2y it is 4x, in 3y it is 8x, in 4y it is 16x, in 5y it is 32x and in 6y it is 64x. and if it is 1.5y we have in 1.5y it is 2x, in 3y it is 4x, in 4.5y it is 8x and in 6y it is 16x.


If Joe is the average user and not a single person doubling every 6 months means that in 6y the network will need to be able to support 2048x the traffic it does today in order for people to have the equivalent experience as they have today on the other hand if the need doubles every year (it is assumed to be a bit faster than that with some pegging it as low as 8months) in 6 years there will be 64 times the traffic on the internet but if "Joe" can be slowed down so that traffic doubles every 1.5y in 6y it will be 16x what it is today. A real small change in doubling period (we went from 6 months to 1y and to 1.5y) makes a real big difference in the infrastructure needed even in a short period like 6y (right 16x -64x- 2048x compared to what we have today is a big difference)

my replies in bold

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by wormraper

the point of that was this. we have different tiers of Tv, free ota, cable, higher levels of cable etc, just as you listed. but they don't charge us for watching MORE tv than a certain amount of hours.

but the difference is this:
if 1 person or 100 or 1M watch a show over the air, it does not change the cost to anyone, the TV transmitter is the same no matter how many people are watching the show/station.

if 1 person or 100 or 1M watch a show over basic cable/sat, it does not change the cost to anyone, the TBW that the station uses on the cable/sat transmitter is the same no matter how many people are watching the show/station.

to have a similar scenario to what you are speaking of we need to talk about what happens when the cable/sat adds a new speciality channel that you are interested in. Then their extra costs are not passed on to everyone so that everyone can subsidise it for that small group of people but that small group of people have to pay that extra cost. Same for PPV

if I watch 50 hours of TV a month vs. if I watch 200 hours of tv a month I pay the same amount.

depends what you are watching. If it is PPV then no the consumers cost will be different if it is 50h or 200h.

I can get a 15 mpbs tier, a 7 a 12 a 20 and a 40 mbps tier. and I don't pay more for using 10 gigs a month or 1000 gigs a month

depends on the ISP with some you don't yet with others you do. If it was truly that way this discussion would not even exist since people like you would not be whining about caps.

Higher speeds mean download faster and faster allowing more download in the same amount of time. I no longer have to wait 40 minutes for a 3 gig download. I can do 6 gigs in that 40 minutes

I get that but, for example typing this post does not realy change stuff. The data I am sending might reach bl-ray.com a fraction of a second faster and the page might load a bit faster but that is so small compared to the minutes it takes me to read your reply , think of what to say and reply back. If the goal is to use top speed 24/7 you would be right, but that is not the case. Just like I pointed out before I need high speed for work, I need it when I have a VPN connection into my work (always on for e-mail and other stuff that is only on the servers/computrs I have there), accessing a remote computer (or more) to install a new application/fix some bugs or reconfigure some stuff while being in a video meeting coordinating with people at the other ends what is happening. Now I need that BW a few times a month but, when that is not the case, the VPN connection is not sending/receiving data full stream all the time and when I am not working and browsing the internet, watching youtube videos, DL my home e-mails..... the stress I am putting on the network is much less. That is why even though my internet connection is several times faster then what you have you obviously transfer several times more data. Now I don't have an issue paying more for higher BW, why do you have one paying more for more GB?

Same thing really. it is REALLY nasty for a company to be constantly changing you cap (and thus your service agreement) every few months.

who said every few months? Comcast has had the same cap since October 2008 it is now past Oct 2011 and it has yet to change. A&T introduced their cap at the beginning of the year and it has yet to change as well.

it's ridiculous when they can just charge a service charge for your monthly fee and leave it at that

Not sure what you mean by that. If you mean everyone pays the same, the issue is that it means that I (as someone that does not need anywhere near 500GB a month) is subsidizing you that does.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

but the difference is this:
if 1 person or 100 or 1M watch a show over the air, it does not change the cost to anyone, the TV transmitter is the same no matter how many people are watching the show/station.

if 1 person or 100 or 1M watch a show over basic cable/sat, it does not change the cost to anyone, the TBW that the station uses on the cable/sat transmitter is the same no matter how many people are watching the show/station.

to have a similar scenario to what you are speaking of we need to talk about what happens when the cable/sat adds a new speciality channel that you are interested in. Then their extra costs are not passed on to everyone so that everyone can subsidise it for that small group of people but that small group of people have to pay that extra cost. Same for PPV



depends what you are watching. If it is PPV then no the consumers cost will be different if it is 50h or 200h.

ppv is a whole nother ball game, it's a niche area of TV (only fools waste that kinda money IMO)


depends on the ISP with some you don't yet with others you do. If it was truly that way this discussion would not even exist since people like you would not be whining about caps.

sorry I worded that badly. on the ISP that I'm on now that IS what happens. I have ZERO caps at the moment. (and yes I've broke a terabyte in a month before (only once so far )


I get that but, for example typing this post does not realy change stuff. The data I am sending might reach bl-ray.com a fraction of a second faster and the page might load a bit faster but that is so small compared to the minutes it takes me to read your reply , think of what to say and reply back. If the goal is to use top speed 24/7 you would be right, but that is not the case. Just like I pointed out before I need high speed for work, I need it when I have a VPN connection into my work (always on for e-mail and other stuff that is only on the servers/computrs I have there), accessing a remote computer (or more) to install a new application/fix some bugs or reconfigure some stuff while being in a video meeting coordinating with people at the other ends what is happening. Now I need that BW a few times a month but, when that is not the case, the VPN connection is not sending/receiving data full stream all the time and when I am not working and browsing the internet, watching youtube videos, DL my home e-mails..... the stress I am putting on the network is much less. That is why even though my internet connection is several times faster then what you have you obviously transfer several times more data. Now I don't have an issue paying more for higher BW, why do you have one paying more for more GB?

right, web browsing is one thing, but the net is SOOOOO much more than web browsing. my wife ups and downloads 20-30 gigs of test clients for her software work every day, linux work eats up a TON of that etc... web browsing is only a very small portion of what the net is used for anymore. file land data transfer is really the thing now.

and as for 24/7 naw, I don't think It should run 24/7. I only run my connection at max around 16-17 hours per day


who said every few months? Comcast has had the same cap since October 2008 it is now past Oct 2011 and it has yet to change. A&T introduced their cap at the beginning of the year and it has yet to change as well.

Exactly, that's another reason it's so horrible. download rates and filesizes have increased DRASTICALLY since 2008 and their cap is still the same. my average back in 2008 was 300 gigs a month. I'm at over 500 right now.


Not sure what you mean by that. If you mean everyone pays the same, the issue is that it means that I (as someone that does not need anywhere near 500GB a month) is subsidizing you that does.

Not my fault if you use less, EVERY industry subsidizes the heavier users. the tv and cable industry already does that. (unless you know of a way of only purchasing 3-5 channels at one time without getting all the other crap)

same routine with the bolded

and on a side note, I believe we've gotten our point across to each other, we both disagree on how it should be implemented. I am a solid believer that limited internet will destroy the web in the way we know it today. for the casual joe blow (who is becoming less and less common, I know of almost no one today that doesn't already complain that their internet is too slow or can easily download quite a lot of data a month vs. 5 years ago when those same people were content with checking their emails). many european governments have already stated that they believe unfettered unlimited internet is the only way to keep the world economy going and is this close to being a right. (I don't believe it's a RIGHT and most people have a bit of an entitlement complex), but at the same time I can see the damage that this can do. as you stated, At&T hasn't changed their cap in 3 + years..... and still they charge the same etc in a world where the filesizes have increased drastically. offering you less for the same money and whining that we still take too much. if this goes to caps over every network then I can easily see a DRASTIC drop in internet usage and people dropping to the bare minimum or just leeching off of someone else. most everyone I know is sick and tired of the limitations we already have and any more could be a big stopping point for them. the U.S. market is much different than the Australian market where they are used to bending over and taking it up the a$$ for just about everything (and then the government wonders why it's economy makes ours look golden)

[Cevolution]

Originally Posted by wormraper

the internet is not just to check my email and browse blu-ray.com. it's my tv , my data site, my work, my hobby etc.

You said the internet is a "hobby" to you, I just repeated your words. You are too busy complaining about everything so you even forget what you write lol.

Originally Posted by wormraper

lol, sorry, strawman argument. so they shouldn't upgrade now because they should spend it elsewhere. it's become pretty obvious that you literally use the internet for a few things and don't give a crap about what's becoming standard for most other people. you haven't answered the questions posed by us here and just run around in circles

and the internet is NOT my hobby. like most people I know all of our hobbies have the internet flowing through them. the internet is the LIFEBLOOD of most transactions over here in the civilized world

How have I gone around in circles, you are just ignoring what I've said because you don't agree, we see things differently. To most people 500gb's is excessive. Maybe not there in the U.S but to plenty of other countries it's considered that way. You sound like someone who couldn't survive without tv and technology even for a day, I could just imagine if you went camping lol. You would take everything piece of technology with you, your laptop, ipod/iphone, psp etc.

A great percentage of people worldwide don't care for the internet for movie and tv viewing. This discussion is no different to the 1's where people argue about SD and HD, dvd and blu-ray etc. In those discussions a lot of people against blu-ray make reference to how most of the worlds population haven't even bought HDtv's let alone blu-ray players. The same thing can be applied to this discussion because in a lot of countries for everybody to be able to download content on such a large scale to the extent that you do, is along way away, and until every country catches up with the those that are ahead (which will be 10-20 years away) then to most people the internet will just remain the same for them, a place to check emails and social networking sites, to shop, do their banking and pay their bills, not to watch movies.

You assume that people value tv the way you do, but the truth is most people don't care. Here in Australia most people are more than happy just watching free to air tv with 3-4 minutes of ad's every 10 minutes, which only consisted of 5 primary channels up until a couple of years ago when freeview launched and introduction approximately another 10 free channels. Slick seems to think because he is a 45 year old man and uses the internet for everything, that every other person his age is and should be the same, but the truth is most are not.

People have better things to do with their lives instead of spending it on the internet for personal use all day, such as spending time with their kids doing activities, making money so they can invest in shares or real estate so they are comfortable when they retire, going on holidays traveling the world etc. Watching tv and movies here in Australia is at the bottom of the list for the majority of people, we prefer to go to the beach all the time, play sport, have bbq's and drink beer with mates, root our GF's and wives etc. Not many people care here how long they have to wait for tv shows or movies to air, most Australian's value tv for sport and as long as sport takes priority over everything else then the majority of Australians are happy and don't care about the rest.

That's the problem with people like you who are completely in love with the internet, you don't realise that there are still a whole world of people out there that are not. You make arrogant comments such as "over here in the civilized world" lol, the internet doesn't make people who prefer to use it for doing everything any more or less civilized than other people who don't. There are still large amounts of people who choose to do things in person or by phone, such as banking, paying bills, shopping etc, and those option are still going to be available for people who want them for a very long time to come.

Your even insulted your own Grandmother, I certainly wouldn't call her technology illiterate if she can do that, my 81 year old nan wouldn't be able to understand any of it at all. Same goes for my old man, he wouldn't know where to begin and doesn't want to know (he doesn't even know the right button to press on his dvd player remote to turn it on half the time, and sometimes puts dvd's in the player upside down). There's a whole world of people who are just the same, so your Grandmother is already way ahead of most people from her age group. My dad runs his own business and has made himself a lot of money in the process, and he's never used a computer once in his life. Many people out there still don't even know how to use a computer, or not very well (a lot of people type with 1 finger from each hand too). This notion from people that use computers religiously similar to yourself who think other people who don't rely them to the same extent will be left behind and won't be able to survive or get by if they don't jump into your world of computers and the internet always makes me laugh.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by Cevolution

You said the internet is a "hobby" to you, I just repeated your words. You even forget what you write lol.



How have I gone around in circles, you are just ignoring what I've said because you don't agree, we see things differently. To most people 500gb's is excessive. Maybe not there in the U.S but to plenty of other countries it's considered that way. You sound like someone who couldn't survive without tv and technology even for a day, I could just imagine if you went camping lol. You would take everything piece of technology with you, your laptop, ipod/iphone, psp etc.

A great percentage of people worldwide don't care for the internet for movie viewing. This discussion is no different to the 1's where people argue about SD and HD, dvd and blu-ray etc. In those discussions a lot of people against blu-ray make reference to how most of the worlds population haven't even bought HDtv's let alone blu-ray players. The same thing can be applied to this discussion because in a lot of countries being able to download content on such large scale to the extent that you do, is along way away, and until every country catches up with the those that are ahead (which will 10-20 years away) then to most people the internet will just remain the same for them, a place to check emails and social networking sites, to shop, do their banking and pay their bills.

You assume that people value tv the way you do, but the truth is most people don't care. Here in Australia most people are more than happy just watching free to air tv with 3-4 minutes of ad's every 10 minutes, which only consisted of 5 primary channels up until a couple of years ago when freeview launched and introduction approximately another 10 free channels. Slick seems to think because he is a 45 year old man and uses the internet for everything, that every other person his age is and should be the same, but the truth is most are not.

People have better things to do with their lives instead of spending it on the internet for personal use all day, such as spending time with their kids doing activities, making money so they can invest in shares or real estate so they are comfortable when they retire, going on holidays traveling the world etc. Watching tv and movies here in Australia is at the bottom of the list for the majority of people, we prefer to go to the beach all the time, play sport, have bbq's and drink beer with mate, root our GF's and wives etc. Not many people care here how long they have to wait for tv shows or movies to air, most Australian's value tv for sport and as long as sport take priority over everything else most Australians are happy and don't care about the rest.

That's the problem with people like you who are completely in love with the internet, you don't realise that there are a whole world of people out there that are not. You make arrogant comments such as "over here in the civilized world" lol, the internet doesn't make people who prefer to use it for doing everything any more or less civilized than other people who don't. There are still large amounts of people who choose to do things in person or by phone, such as banking, paying bills, shopping etc, and those option are still going to be available for people who want them for a very long time to come.

Your even insulted your own Grandmother, I certainly wouldn't call her technology illiterate if she can do that, my 81 year old nan wouldn't be able to understand any of it at all. Same goes for my old man, he wouldn't know where to begin and doesn't want to know (he doesn't even know the right button to press on his dvd player remote to turn it on half the time, and sometimes puts dvd's in the player upside down). There's a whole world of people who are just the same, so your Grandmother is already way ahead of most people from her age group. My dad runs his own business and has made himself a lot of money in the process, and he's never used a computer once in his life. Many people out there still don't even know how to use a computer, or not very well (a lot of people type with 1 finger from each hand). This notion from people that use computers religiously similar to yourself who think other people who don't rely them to the same extent will be left behind and won't be able to survive or get by if the don't jump into your world of computers and the internet always makes me laugh.

I'll put it bluntly, here in the U.S. not using a computer is actually a liability. I know MANY companies who won't hire even a basic person (besides a fry cook or stock room boy) who doesn't have solid computer skills. it has become a necessity of life to learn. I know most 2-3 year olds nowadays who can use a computer better than most 30 year olds who've grown up with the "windows" era.

and as for insulting... you've done nothing but insult me as someone who doesn't have "any life" other than a computer. I fully understand that there's different strokes for different folks but the world is changing (not always for the better I will agree) to the age of the keystroke. a mom and pop store WILL NOT . I repeat WILL NOT survive here in the computer age her int the U.S. without the use of computer for inventory, databasing, pos etc. It is simple as that.

and as for my personal life, not that it's any of your business. but I workout 6 days a week, Am a martial artist, go to church, take my wife out on dates and visit my parents weekly and also hang out with friends (although alll my friends have projectors and gaming consoles so that's what we use when we're together). camping on the other hand I loathe with a living passion, the outdoors is what's between your house and your car as you travel one two another .

you said that there in Australia watching TV is at the bottom of your list over there. understandable, different culture, differnent lives. here' TV and computers for the average american takes up 1/3rd or more of their lives (not just free time either, that's 1/3rd TOTAL not including time used at work etc) Technology is LIFE over here, plain and simple. Hell I go to the gym as I said and about 40% of the people there have a VISIBLE Iphone or Ipad or some such device that they use to listen to music or watch TV while they workout. You don't have to like it but that's the way it is.

[Steedeel]

The more we use the internet, the worse things become. Kids dont exercise, communicate properly, learn to spell and there is even more peer pressure. The internet has ensured people remain stressed even when work is finished and spend more time talking online about meaningless things than they do actually communicating in the real world. Personally i dont think the internet has made the world a better place, just a sadder one. it breeds lazy children who should be outdoors getting fresh air and playing, not being stuck on facebook and texting on phones all night. If the internet was no more i could not care less.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

The more we use the internet, the worse things become. Kids dont exercise, communicate properly, learn to spell and there is even more peer pressure. The internet has ensured people remain stressed even when work is finished and spend more time talking online about meaningless things than they do actually communicating in the real world. Personally i dont think the internet has made the world a better place, just a sadder one. it breeds lazy children who should be outdoors getting fresh air and playing, not being stuck on facebook and texting on phones all night. If the internet was no more i could not care less.

I wouldn't blame the net for that. it started with political correctness and video games and a WHOLE slew of other social issues. kids still play but we've become a nation where we shove our kids on whatever will babysit them the easiest, the TV, the computer, video games, or anything else. combine that with the paranoia of people getting hurt and sued etc (like people banning balls at a school because someone might get "hurt"). it's become a world/nation of people blaming others instead of taking responsibility for themselves that's done this.

[Cevolution]

Originally Posted by wormraper

I'll put it bluntly, here in the U.S. not using a computer is actually a liability. I know MANY companies who won't hire even a basic person (besides a fry cook or stock room boy) who doesn't have solid computer skills. it has become a necessity of life to learn. I know most 2-3 year olds nowadays who can use a computer better than most 30 year olds who've grown up with the "windows" era.

and as for insulting... you've done nothing but insult me as someone who doesn't have "any life" other than a computer. I fully understand that there's different strokes for different folks but the world is changing (not always for the better I will agree) to the age of the keystroke. a mom and pop store WILL NOT . I repeat WILL NOT survive here in the computer age her int the U.S. without the use of computer for inventory, databasing, pos etc. It is simple as that.

and as for my personal life, not that it's any of your business. but I workout 6 days a week, Am a martial artist, go to church, take my wife out on dates and visit my parents weekly and also hang out with friends (although alll my friends have projectors and gaming consoles so that's what we use when we're together). camping on the other hand I loathe with a living passion, the outdoors is what's between your house and your car as you travel one two another .

you said that there in Australia watching TV is at the bottom of your list over there. understandable, different culture, differnent lives. here' TV and computers for the average american takes up 1/3rd or more of their lives (not just free time either, that's 1/3rd TOTAL not including time used at work etc) Technology is LIFE over here, plain and simple. Hell I go to the gym as I said and about 40% of the people there have a VISIBLE Iphone or Ipad or some such device that they use to listen to music or watch TV while they workout. You don't have to like it but that's the way it is.

I think by relying on it too much you are destroying your own society, maybe that's half the reason why we hear here that so many there are unemployed at the moment? People should be given a change because they can be trained. By the sound of things most people there in U.S can't even get a good paying decent job if they don't go to college? People here who choose not to go to university can still easily get jobs that pay $80000-$100000 per year, it's not hard. My fiancee dropped out of high school before she did her exams and graduated (she met some guy a decided to move away with him). She's 27 now and has worked for the Australian Government for the last 5 years and earns $80000 a year for working 37.5 hours a week (more if she chooses to work on a Saturday which is optional, she earns and extra $450 a week if she works on a Saturday for 7 hours).

If everything is about computers there, then who's doing physical labour jobs. Tradesman here can earn very good money, better than people who put on a suit and work in an office. Carpenter, tiler, plumber, painter etc. Have people forgotten about those types jobs? You certainly don't need a degree in computer to build a house.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by Cevolution

I think by relying on it too much you are destroying your own society, maybe that's half the reason why we hear here that so many there are unemployed at the moment? People should be given a change because they can be trained. By the sound of things most people there in U.S can't even get a good paying decent job if they don't go to college? People here who choose not to go to university can still easily get jobs that pay $80000-$100000 per year, it's not hard. My fiancee dropped out of high school before she did her exams and graduated. She's 27 and has worked for the Australian Government for the last 5 years now and earns $80000 a year for working 37.5 hours a week (more if she chooses to do work on a Saturday which is optional, she earns and extra $450 a week if she works on a Saturday for 7 hours).

If everything is about computers there, then who's doing physical labour jobs. Tradesman here can earn very good money, better than people who put on a suit and work in an office. Carpenter, tiler, plumber, painter etc. Have people forgotten about those types jobs? You certainly don't need a degree in computer to build a house.

to a certain point I WILL agree with you. College degrees are now the new High School degrees. what used to net you a job with college degree now requires a masters.

and as for laborer jobs. I will fully agree with you here. most laborer jobs are now relegated to mexican immigrants while native borns refuse to get a job unless it's white collar. we are fast becoming a nation where our only export is information.

however, to balance it out, due to all the restrictions and nickle and diming done over there I know several friends who emigrated from Australia and refuse to ever go back because they live much better over here

again, I don't think it's the advent of technology that is making us lose ground but rather rampant government interference, we need to LITERALLY cut out about 80% of the govt and leave the nation to go back to good old fashioned unfettered capitalism (business here are so restrained by the government that it's more in their self interest to NOT hire people and take risks than it is to hire and take those risks like the days gone by)

also you have to factor cost of living into the job category. you mentioned that $80,000 -$100,000 isn't uncommon. using the cost of living calculator in Arizona that's about $50,000-$62,000 a year when you factor in cost of living in my state in comparison to Australia

[Steedeel]

Fair enough, but the internet is to blame afaiac. I cannot remember the last time i saw children playing outdoors. I am only in my late 20's so i am hardly old but football and general activity was all i did at a young age. Kids come home now and go straight on facebook or their game console. I would not be suprised if they spent most of the night doing so.

[Cevolution]

Originally Posted by wormraper

to a certain point I WILL agree with you. College degrees are now the new High School degrees. what used to net you a job with college degree now requires a masters.

and as for laborer jobs. I will fully agree with you here. most laborer jobs are now relegated to mexican immigrants while native borns refuse to get a job unless it's white collar. we are fast becoming a nation where our only export is information.

however, to balance it out, due to all the restrictions and nickle and diming done over there I know several friends who emigrated from Australia and refuse to ever go back because they live much better over here

again, I don't think it's the advent of technology that is making us lose ground but rather rampant government interference, we need to LITERALLY cut out about 80% of the govt and leave the nation to go back to good old fashioned unfettered capitalism (business here are so restrained by the government that it's more in their self interest to NOT hire people and take risks than it is to hire and take those risks like the days gone by)

also you have to factor cost of living into the job category. you mentioned that $80,000 -$100,000 isn't uncommon. using the cost of living calculator in Arizona that's about $50,000-$62,000 a year when you factor in cost of living in my state in comparison to Australia

I understand that, I didn't bring up her earnings to compare it to the average income there in the U.S, but more so as a reference to what people can still easily earn here if they don't finish school or go to university. How much in the U.S do people generally earn if they don't finish school or go to college?

It's unfortunate that it has become that way there for physical labour jobs then. It's not the same here. My fiancees friends husband is a qualified electrician and he earns $50 an hour, and my dad is a carpenter and he earns $65 an hour. They both always have plenty of clients, business is never slow.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by Cevolution

I understand that, I didn't bring up her earnings to compare it to the average income there in the U.S, but more so as a reference to what people can still easily earn here if they don't finish school or go to university. How much in the U.S do people generally earn if they don't finish school or go to college?

It's unfortunate that it has become that way there for physical labour jobs then. It's not the same here. My fiancees friends husband is a qualified electrician and he earns $50 an hour, and my dad is a carpenter and he earns $65 an hour. They both always have plenty of clients, business is never slow.

oh I understand, I agree with you here. manual labor is now relegated to immigrants or people who haven't graduated highschool. (or highschool at the most). as for how much they earn if they don't finish highschool??? it's almost impossible to get anything above working at mcdonald's if you don't finish high school and not much above retail or phone support if you don't get a college degree. Manual labor otherwise (and that's not much more than $20,000 -25,000 a year.

[wormraper]

well back on topic to streaming video like Netflix. it makes me giggle to see people complaining about physical media going away anytime soon. with caps like these people are no longer really gonna be in a rush to download and watch gigs upon gigs of streaming data when their ISP's are jumping down their throats.

my ISP just announced that they are doing a 250 gig soft cap starting in February UNLESS (get this) you upgrade to their business class

250 gigs on higher speeds cap and 150 gigs on 1.5 mpbs class. and of course if you get their digital prism tv service THAT won't count towards your bandwidth whatsoever (surprise surprise)... seriously disgusting. at least my wife's work pays for our internet due to her working at home. I am going to be dropping them though come february out of principal though, I refuse to suppost a company that doesn't give unlimited bandwidth (I expect at a bare minimum to have my pipeline to run 24/7 at whatever it's max bandwidth is rated, anything less in unacceptable)