I fear for 4k Disks...

[Gold Ranger]

One thing that you are wrong...
4k will not be going up against only Streaming, but also BD and even DVD!

[RAILERSWIM]

Originally Posted by KaineKinetic

One thing that you are wrong...
4k will not be going up against only Streaming, but also BD and even DVD!

You know what, that is true. People still stick with DVD even so. Just like how some people are still gaming on a 360. I think once BD4k and other mediums come out, DVD will vanish. Regular BD will go down in price (eventually). Even though you can get a lot of titles for under $10 right now.

But in order for that to work 1080p equipment needs to get prices of a 720p equipment. The startup of a new format will cause and exodus from one of the mediums in a year or two.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by RAILERSWIM

You know what, that is true. People still stick with DVD even so. Just like how some people are still gaming on a 360. I think once BD4k and other mediums come out, DVD will vanish. Regular BD will go down in price (eventually). Even though you can get a lot of titles for under $10 right now.

But in order for that to work 1080p equipment needs to get prices of a 720p equipment. The startup of a new format will cause and exodus from one of the mediums in a year or two.

There is at least a good reason though, for people sticking with an XboX360 over an XboX:One. The games can't be played on the new system. Physical or Digital.

[Lentulus Batiatus]

Originally Posted by RAILERSWIM

You know what, that is true. People still stick with DVD even so. Just like how some people are still gaming on a 360. I think once BD4k and other mediums come out, DVD will vanish. Regular BD will go down in price (eventually). Even though you can get a lot of titles for under $10 right now.

But in order for that to work 1080p equipment needs to get prices of a 720p equipment. The startup of a new format will cause and exodus from one of the mediums in a year or two.

Huh? How many 720p sets are flying off the shelves? There's 3 larger than 50" on Best Buy's website and 1 is a "marketplace" unit. I've not seen a 720p set larger than 32" in a store in years. I'd wager 99% of new TV's sold in North America over 32" are 1080p today. So to say 1080p sets need to get to 720p prices there are no 720p prices to get to. And even then being cheaper doesn't mean anything. There are 1080p sets in all sizes that vary from dirt cheap to very expensive. Especially when you compare to what 27" tube TV's cost 15 years ago or even better 25 years ago.

And what does getting 1080p TVs cheaper have to do with 4K Blu-ray? The studios still control what is released and have shown they'd rather give dumb consumers the lowest quality format they can by the truck load. 720p/1080p means nothing when you are watching a Pan & Scan DVD.

[moviefan84]

The other day I caught a demo of the movie Maleficent (non-4k) on a 4K television. I think I finally understand what the "Soap Opera" effect is and how it can be distracting. While the picture quality was excellent, I felt like I was watching a live stage piece rather than a movie. Does that make sense to anyone? It was strange!

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by moviefan84

The other day I caught a demo of the movie Maleficent (non-4k) on a 4K television. I think I finally understand what the "Soap Opera" effect is and how it can be distracting. While the picture quality was excellent, I felt like I was watching a live stage piece rather than a movie. Does that make sense to anyone? It was strange!

It makes sense. I actually like that effect for SOME things, but not for most.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by moviefan84

The other day I caught a demo of the movie Maleficent (non-4k) on a 4K television. I think I finally understand what the "Soap Opera" effect is and how it can be distracting. While the picture quality was excellent, I felt like I was watching a live stage piece rather than a movie. Does that make sense to anyone? It was strange!

That has nothing to do with 4K. What it has to do with are the settings of the motion controls. All those motion controls should be shut off (with the possible exception of live sports). In addition, the backlight and contrast controls are probably set too high as most TVs in retail situations (except perhaps for a specialized retailer) are set to "store blast" mode. This is partially because most of the stores are brightly lit with florescent lighting and partially because when consumers are comparing sets, they'll naturally choose the set with the most contrast and brightest picture, even though it's notoriously inaccurate. Most consumers look at TV with a different eye than the one they use when they go to the movies. So when many consumers first see a fully calibrated TV, they don't like it: they think it's too dark.

Some people are all excited about high frame rate capture and presentation, because it catches action better as the high frame rate eliminates blur. But in order for us to suspend disbelief, we NEED the blur that 24fps gives us. That's what makes it look like a movie. You can see this when you watch some documentaries shot on video about the making of a film. You'll see the actors rehearsing an action scene and it all looks fake. Then you see the film and you believe it. This is because of the different frame rates and also because of the warmer look of film (even when it's presented digitally or originally shot digitally).

My ex is not the least bit technical. She only has a very tiny HDTV in her home. But she went to California to visit an ill friend and when she came back she said to me, "remember how when we used to watch TV and you could tell the difference between videotape and film? When we were watching movies on Isabel's TV, it all looked like video." I was shocked that she recognized that the TV wasn't displaying movies properly, but she was most obviously talking about the "soap opera" effect. I congratulated her on her newly-found technical sophistication.

There's a pizza place I go to that has a TV mounted on the wall, mostly for the crew, since it's only visible to customers when standing at the counter. Whenever I go there, that TV drives me completely nuts because the motion controls are on and everything looks like a soap opera. I've tried to explain this to them, but they were only given a remote control for the cable box, not for the TV itself, so I couldn't fix it for them.

Before I understood about the motion controls, I would go to a retailer and watch a Blu-ray demo and any fast action scenes would look funny. I remember something being particularly wrong with "King Kong". It actually made me angry - I thought to myself, "how could they screw up this new technology so badly?" I refused to buy an HDTV and Blu-ray if that what is was going to look like. But then I found out it was all about the stupid motion controls.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

[Show spoiler]That has nothing to do with 4K. What it has to do with are the settings of the motion controls. All those motion controls should be shut off (with the possible exception of live sports). In addition, the backlight and contrast controls are probably set too high as most TVs in retail situations (except perhaps for a specialized retailer) are set to "store blast" mode. This is partially because most of the stores are brightly lit with florescent lighting and partially because when consumers are comparing sets, they'll naturally choose the set with the most contrast and brightest picture, even though it's notoriously inaccurate. Most consumers look at TV with a different eye than the one they use when they go to the movies. So when many consumers first see a fully calibrated TV, they don't like it: they think it's too dark.

My ex is not the least bit technical. She only has a very tiny HDTV in her home. But she went to California to visit an ill friend and when she came back she said to me, "remember how when we used to watch TV and you could tell the difference between videotape and film? When we were watching movies on Isabel's TV, it all looked like video." I was shocked that she recognized that the TV wasn't displaying movies properly, but she was most obviously talking about the "soap opera" effect. I congratulated her on her newly-found technical sophistication.

There's a pizza place I go to that has a TV mounted on the wall, mostly for the crew, since it's only visible to customers when standing at the counter. Whenever I go there, that TV drives me completely nuts because the motion controls are on and everything looks like a soap opera. I've tried to explain this to them, but they were only given a remote control for the cable box, not for the TV itself, so I couldn't fix it for them.

[Show spoiler]Before I understood about the motion controls, I would go to a retailer and watch a Blu-ray demo and any fast action scenes would look funny. I remember something being particularly wrong with "King Kong". It actually made me angry - I thought to myself, "how could they screw up this new technology so badly?" I refused to buy an HDTV and Blu-ray if that what is was going to look like. But then I found out it was all about the stupid motion controls

.

Any chance you live near me and can help me with mine?

[Nightopian]

Originally Posted by Rblu-Dblu

I would probably only buy new releases in 4k. Don't feel like investing thousands of dollars to replace movies that may not benefit from the upgrade or lack of as some of the companies would do. You know some will push off old masters on a 4k disc.

I will do the same. I feel the only movies which will really benefit are the latest ones filmed in the latest technology. I've bough old movies on DVD and re-bought them again on Bluray with the difference being only marginal and hardly worth the effort. I can see the latest movies taking full advantage of 4K resolution but again, I'm only going to see that advantage on a large enough screen.

I was happy with DVD (like most of the mainstream are today) until I played them on my projector...then I had no choice but to upgrade to Bluray as the resolution of SD had well and truly reached it's limit. Bluray is prefect right now for the screen sizes I have. I see 4K as more of a luxury than a necessity at the moment. Eventually all my gear will be 4K, not by choice but just by the natural progression of buying new stuff - you get what's available at the time.

In any event I think 4K is still a good thing because it may drive the prices down on regular Bluray much like Bluray did to DVD. Which will be great for all of us who are building up our collection. I just hope they continue to support regular Bluray and not try to force 4K on us by dropping it.

[KRW1]

Originally Posted by Nightopian

I will do the same. I feel the only movies which will really benefit are the latest ones filmed in the latest technology. I've bough old movies on DVD and re-bought them again on Bluray with the difference being only marginal and hardly worth the effort. I can see the latest movies taking full advantage of 4K resolution but again, I'm only going to see that advantage on a large enough screen.

I was happy with DVD (like most of the mainstream are today) until I played them on my projector...then I had no choice but to upgrade to Bluray as the resolution of SD had well and truly reached it's limit. Bluray is prefect right now for the screen sizes I have. I see 4K as more of a luxury than a necessity at the moment. Eventually all my gear will be 4K, not by choice but just by the natural progression of buying new stuff - you get what's available at the time.

In any event I think 4K is still a good thing because it may drive the prices down on regular Bluray much like Bluray did to DVD. Which will be great for all of us who are building up our collection. I just hope they continue to support regular Bluray and not try to force 4K on us by dropping it.

Aren't most films nowadays 2k scans? I think it's older films, filmed on 35 and 70mm which will benefit the most.

As for cheap blurays, they're hardly luxury items anymore. I bought three this week for about £10.

[Selaboc]

Originally Posted by Nightopian

I will do the same. I feel the only movies which will really benefit are the latest ones filmed in the latest technology. I've bough old movies on DVD and re-bought them again on Bluray with the difference being only marginal and hardly worth the effort. I can see the latest movies taking full advantage of 4K resolution but again, I'm only going to see that advantage on a large enough screen.

If the old films were shot on film, rescanning at higher resolutions should result in a significant difference between DVD and Blu-ray (and 4k) - analog 35mm and 70mm natively has better than Blu-ray resolution. Alas, all too many films simply used the old scans that were done for the DVD when making the Blu-ray (mainly because it was cheaper to do that than to make a new high-res scan of the film)

The latest movies can only take full advantage of 4K if they were shot in 4k (or better), many of the movies of the past few years were shot in 2K - analog film will be better positioned to take advantage of 4k (assuming the studios don't go the cheap route again).

Originally Posted by Nightopian

In any event I think 4K is still a good thing because it may drive the prices down on regular Bluray much like Bluray did to DVD. Which will be great for all of us who are building up our collection. I just hope they continue to support regular Bluray and not try to force 4K on us by dropping it.

Unlikely, as it's an extention of the blu-ray standard, the new 4k players should be backward compatible with the BD disks you have now.

[Gold Ranger]

Recent movies will be plagued by the same problems that befell The Lord of the Rings Trilogy and Star Wars: Attack of the Clones?/Revenge of the Sith.
They were shot digitally and are forever locked into that resolution.

[Spike M.]

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

Recent movies will be plagued by the same problems that befell The Lord of the Rings Trilogy and Star Wars: Attack of the Clones?/Revenge of the Sith.
They were shot digitally and are forever locked into that resolution.

The Lord of the Ring's was shot on film, but okay.

[kevinbr100]

Originally Posted by Spike M.

The Lord of the Ring's was shot on film, but okay.

Interstellar was too, even screened in the theater on film 35/70mm at some theaters. some Imax theaters also had an Imax film print, which still rules over Imax digital. digital solves distribution issues, and degrading print problems, but my eyes still miss film. I jumped at the chance to watch Interstellar on film.

Earlier discussions about motion control making it look soap operish, actually what it really is is a change in frame rate, those 120hz/240hz settings ruin movies. its good for live tv though.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by Spike M.

The Lord of the Ring's was shot on film, but okay.

hmmm. Maybe I'm mis-remembering then. I coulda sworn that it was said to be locked in at 1080p.

[ouflak]

Originally Posted by RAILERSWIM

equipment. The startup of a new format will cause and exodus from one of the mediums in a year or two.

If it is going to be yet another optical disk, I doubt that very much. If it was a significantly different format, that greatly improved access to the media, its physical size, the size of the equipment needed to view it, etc... then yes, you could safely predict a paradigm shift from one medium to another.

[Gold Ranger]

CableVision here on Long Island is starting to really bottleneck bandwidth.
The Internet at my Mom's in a different state is absolutely terrible! We tried watching a VuDu HDX movie and couldn't. Tried it in HD, still couldn't. Had to go with SD and it took a few minutes to finally buffer enough before it started to play, but then it never paused again.

4K streaming will NEVER take off with current "Gen" Internet!

[c1nn1c]

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

hmmm. Maybe I'm mis-remembering then. I coulda sworn that it was said to be locked in at 1080p.

Shot on film, but all the effects work was done in 2k, so 4k won't help it.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by c1nn1c

Shot on film, but all the effects work was done in 2k, so 4k won't help it.

Ok, I knew it was something. Thanks.

[JediFonger]

great post thread... haven't read the entire thread... but the general premise is this:
garbage in garbage out.

i think you are talking about the entire production chain from capture all the way through consumer product in hand. everything in between used to be all analog. then in the 1980s/90s it started to transition into digital... but extremely limited. every upgrade since 480i/p through 2k was difficult. but now they are being asked to upgrade *YET AGAIN* from 2k digital intermediary (DI) to 4k and beyond.

furthermore a lot of engineers don't know how to handle dynamic range both on video side as well as audio side and flatten everything out instead. it's kind of harsh.