"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

...well, I haven't received my copy yet, but since I paid $24 on AZN during "Cyber Monday", no, I don't feel ripped off.

Let's turn the table, if we may - ==IF== the screenshots in that thread are in fact accurate to the film in motion (and you'll note the top frames, as least, are not identical times), then which do you feel provides a better overall image?

Take out the scratches with a monitored dirt and scratch removal tool….and the deleted scenes win hands down.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Well, with all the moaning and groaning on AVS...

AVS’ers, please send your PM complaints to Peter THX.

I haven’t kept up with the comments on AVS regarding this (or any other title, for that matter) but, like I said before, there are some good well-informed people over there, unfortunately, drowned out by a lot of noise which is too time-consuming to filter out…at least, for me.

I’m somewhat surprised by the lack of response to those screenshots on this forum and I guess you can rack that up to DNR complaint-fatigue. Add in the fact that some reviewers have trivialized the soft appearance, not because it is acceptable for a Trilogy of this prestige but rather, I think because deep down they know they don’t have an *in* at getting a remastering job from Uni on this one.

[Penton-Man]

Shark, this news release was passed to me from one of your fellow Torontonians (a filmmaker)…
http://www.marketwire.com/press-rele...3D-1361356.htm

I don’t know anything about it ^ but, the guy does have a very nice website (link at the bottom of the page) with music . Let me know if you, your family or friends ever decide to use his services and if they met your expectations. I’m rather curious.

[sharkshark]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Shark, this news release was passed to me from one of your fellow Torontonians (a filmmaker)…
http://www.marketwire.com/press-rele...3D-1361356.htm

I don’t know anything about it ^ but, the guy does have a very nice website (link at the bottom of the page) with music . Let me know if you, your family or friends ever decide to use his services and if they met your expectations. I’m rather curious.

amusing- they're located in Markham (think OC as to LA, but the inland part near Yorba Linda, not the fancy part... )

Yeah, not sure what to think of BTTF, but, frankly, I've just given up on any argument, figuring nobody's listening anyway...

[sharkshark]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Apparently, this is the post that has created all the controversy on the net in regards to Transformers: Dark of the Moon…
http://iesb.net/index.php?option=com...news&Itemid=71

For the sake of the advancement of 3D filmmaking, I hope that the above reporting about the alleged 3D post production difficulties is inaccurate. Although, fact of the matter is, you can’t shoot in 3D (successfully) like you can with 2D. Shaky cam, fast edits and zoom lenses (greater than say, 80mm., unless you’re very careful) don’t do well with 3D filmmaking. Vince Pace knows this and the real question is, did Michael B. follow Vince’s advice, or did he disregard it and shoot in his normal 2D style….figuring he could fix anything in post?

Oh, I can certainly picture that latter...

So, here's the crux - are you actually capturing with modern 3D rigs "two channels" of 2D imagery that's good enough to DROP one of the "eyes" (or chose shot-by-shot between the two of them), and then in post do a 3D process? Ie., 3D>2D>3D, in cases where things are, um, "barfy".

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

amusing- they're located in Markham (think OC as to LA, but the inland part near Yorba Linda, not the fancy part... )

Dude, how the hell do you know Yorba Linda?
And hey, don’t sell that city short, believe me, they’ve got their share of multi-million dollar homes and, at one time, Arnold S. was contemplating buying a house on a hill there (I checked it out myself), several years ago but, the city wouldn’t give him a permit to routinely land a helicopter on its roof.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

Yeah, not sure what to think of BTTF, but, frankly, I've just given up on any argument, figuring nobody's listening anyway...

lol, perhaps you’ve got to post comparison shots of a missing pepperoni or missing sparks from the DeLorean car due to unmonitored, excessive automated dirt and scratch removal in order to get a fire started in viewers’ bellies.

Even if one can’t appreciate the softness in the overall imagery, or tends to trivialize it, missing objects (like arrows and such) seem to be an undeniable visual aid that even the fans of the films have a difficult time ignoring.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

Oh, I can certainly picture that latter...

So, here's the crux - are you actually capturing with modern 3D rigs "two channels" of 2D imagery that's good enough to DROP one of the "eyes" (or chose shot-by-shot between the two of them), and then in post do a 3D process? Ie., 3D>2D>3D, in cases where things are, um, "barfy".

Yes, you can do that but, it will still require a lot of work in post to make it reasonably good 3D. You have to understand that fast cuts, shaky cam, background blur, etc. is still going to be present (even in one stream) if it was shot that way to begin with using one camera, two cameras or 15 cameras.

Principal photography and post production aside, another thing that some people fail to appreciate is that 3D pre-production is also far more important (and complicated) than it is for 2D filmmaking in order to have the best chance for a great 3D outcome without a tedious time in post. Best practices involve hiring an experienced stereo consultant to pre-visualize your storyboard as far as what your 3D depth space will be.

If you minimize the pre-production phase (which is not uncommon with 2D filmmaking), with 3D, in post, you run a real chance of pushing the convergence more and more during the editing phase (because you develop an unrecognized tolerance to the 3D effect, sort of like the way narcotic abusers need more and more drug to get the same effect).

Then only after editing all the pieces together and watching the whole sequence or something like ¼ of the motion picture in its entirety, do you realize that cumulatively, you’ve pushed the convergence sooo much and sooo often, that it is just too fatiguing for the audience to watch, so you’ve got to start all over again in post.

An excellent software pre-viz storyboarding tool is called frameforge 3D…
http://www.frameforge3d.com/Products/Stereo-3D/

[sharkshark]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Dude, how the hell do you know Yorba Linda?

Two reasons - I've been there, and it's where the Nixon Museum is.

A really close friend is from Placentia, which, naturally, sounds like a typical LA-LA name for a happy OC community/afterbirth residue.

I went to the Nixon museum, bought a card with him shaking hands with Elvis (sadly they didn't sell the poster of him bowling, as per Lebowski (STILL NOT ON BLU!)), and spat on his grave.

True story...

And hey, don’t sell that city short, believe me, they’ve got their share of multi-million dollar homes and, at one time, Arnold S. was contemplating buying a house on a hill there (I checked it out myself), several years ago but, the city wouldn’t give him a permit to routinely land a helicopter on its roof.

That part of Cali is a wee bit too 'strip mall-y' for me, but I am amused, as a guy from 'back east', that there are random oil wells sprinkled throughout the suburbs.

[sharkshark]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

lol, perhaps you’ve got to post comparison shots of a missing pepperoni or missing sparks from the DeLorean car due to unmonitored, excessive automated dirt and scratch removal in order to get a fire started in viewers’ bellies.

Even if one can’t appreciate the softness in the overall imagery, or tends to trivialize it, missing objects (like arrows and such) seem to be an undeniable visual aid that even the fans of the films have a difficult time ignoring.

Flights of arrows would have made BTTF a very different movie indeed... As for Gladiator, my views of it as a cinematic warcrime are well and truly noted by now.

[sharkshark]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Principal photography and post production aside, another thing that some people fail to appreciate is that 3D pre-production is also far more important (and complicated) than it is for 2D filmmaking in order to have the best chance for a great 3D outcome without a tedious time in post. Best practices involve hiring an experienced stereo consultant to pre-visualize your storyboard as far as what your 3D depth space will be.

Yeah, that was certainly beaten in.

Did you end up seeing JACKASS 3D? It was my first introduction to the franchise (I had dismissed it as frat boy BS, but after seeing Johnny K on Daily Show, and knowing about the MOMA screening, I thought I'd give it a chance). It's shot with the Pace/Cameron, as you know, and I thought they did a pretty remarkable job, even with the "SCTV"-style 3D fun, in creating an engaging 3D experience. Frankly, I found it preferable to much of what Cameron did in his Thundermurf porn.

If you minimize the pre-production phase (which is not uncommon with 2D filmmaking), with 3D, in post, you run a real chance of pushing the convergence more and more during the editing phase (because you develop an unrecognized tolerance to the 3D effect, sort of like the way narcotic abusers need more and more drug to get the same effect).

...Or the way that ears get "tired" during a sound mix. Yeah, that totally makes sense, you'll lose all sense of perspective in the rush due to the subtlety.

My kvetch was always that people would demand not just 3D but "showy" 3D - the "I paid for this damn television so give me ALL the colours" argument. That same BS is for those that hate black bars, or want to colourise B&W. I think 3D is exceptional when it creates DEPTH, not when it throws stuff TOWARDS you. The sense of looking IN to a world, rather than that world jumping onto your lap, is for me the difference between an artistic usage and a visceral usage. If there's a particular scene that calls for it, sure (think the Rock rolling in Raiders, which is beautifully framed), as opposed to gratuitous snakes-attacking-screen shot like in the recent Harry Potter (made all the more ridiculous, of course, because the 3D wasn't done yet). Oh, and kudos for Warners for NOT pushing out a 3D conversion if it really wasn't up to snuff!

An excellent software pre-viz storyboarding tool is called frameforge 3D…
http://www.frameforge3d.com/Products/Stereo-3D/

Looks pretty sweet - I think that Dan Gregoire et. al. at ILM used to just use off the shelf 3D studio (I think, I don't think it was MAYA) to throw together their quick-and-dirty Animatics, not sure how that workflow would be handled for 3D.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

...but I am amused, as a guy from 'back east', that there are random oil wells sprinkled throughout the suburbs.

It all started with oil men back in the olden days….http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0469494/

Plainview: “I've traveled over half our state to be here tonight. I couldn't get away sooner because my new well was coming in at Coyote Hills and I had to see about it. That well is now flowing at two thousand barrels and it's paying me an income of five thousand dollars a week.”

‘Coyote Hills’ is a neighborhood in Fullerton.
Fullerton, Yorba Linda, Placentia, Brea, etc. are all right next door to each other and all have rigs a pumping to this day.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

Did you end up seeing JACKASS 3D?...

I missed that as I’ve been saving my pennies to get in on the “meet and greet sessions” with the female cast, in case I travel to Hong Kong next year…..
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/first-3d-...133692-11.html

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

Yeah, that was certainly beaten in.

I can always add more when so inclined.

Edits tend to hurt 3D the most because they stress parts of viewers’ brains along the neuro-ophthalmic pathways from the retina to the cerebral cortex. After each edit, essentially, your cerebrum has to reconstitute the space in the next scene of the movie. What makes edits less painful and even unnoticeable, is if you have enough time and the hired help are experienced in this sort of thing…..is to do what is called ‘depth blending’ in post.

Now, imagine how much stress a motion picture with a lot of editorial cuts such as… https://forum.blu-ray.com/insider-di...ml#post1294373 will do to the system.

I find it kind of ironic that Michael B.’s official forum is named “Shoot for the Edit” while he is actively involved in his first 3D feature film. It will be very interesting to see how this all turns out visually esp. if Transformers: Dark of the Moon 3D has the same type of prolific editing style as something like Bourne Ultimatum or Batman Begins.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

My kvetch was always that people would demand not just 3D but "showy" 3D - the "I paid for this damn television so give me ALL the colours" argument. That same BS is for those that hate black bars, or want to colourise B&W. I think 3D is exceptional when it creates DEPTH, not when it throws stuff TOWARDS you. The sense of looking IN to a world, rather than that world jumping onto your lap, is for me the difference between an artistic usage and a visceral usage....

If you really enjoy motion pictures that predominately play into the negative Z space, which, by the way, many folks do , because that style facilitates more of a spatial feeling that can be used quite dramatically in the storytelling, then you should have seen the theatrical presentation of Legend of the Guardians, which I think was probably playing in your neck of the woods as recently as last month? Heck, maybe it still is playing somewhere in the boonies up there. You should check.

Anyway, Legend of the Guardians is the quintessential –Z space motion picture with much of the footage playing out behind the screen. It should be interesting to see if the upcoming home media rendering…
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Legen...Blu-ray/17643/

closely replicates the theatrical offering or if the home media content producers end up racking the convergence so that more of the movie appears to come out of the screen toward home theater audiences to cater to the “showy 3D” crowd which you refer to in your post.

[Penton-Man]

https://forum.blu-ray.com/insider-di...ml#post4057329
^ Looks like my Turkey Day riding buddies were correct.

i.e. -
“Tron: Legacy bursts from 2D into nifty 3D at the 24-minute mark, when Sam breaks through into the grid.”….from an early review –

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE6B26U620101204

[sharkshark]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

It all started with oil men back in the olden days….http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0469494/

Plainview: “I've traveled over half our state to be here tonight. I couldn't get away sooner because my new well was coming in at Coyote Hills and I had to see about it. That well is now flowing at two thousand barrels and it's paying me an income of five thousand dollars a week.”

‘Coyote Hills’ is a neighborhood in Fullerton.
Fullerton, Yorba Linda, Placentia, Brea, etc. are all right next door to each other and all have rigs a pumping to this day.

Huh. Yeah, my friend (from Placentia) went to Fullerton for Undergrad. It's like something out of a movie to see those horse-head like things bobbing around, didn't realize it was that (spectacular) movie!

"I DRINK =YOUR= MILKSHAKE!", indeed...

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Do people feel similarly ripped off with this home media 2D movie (on the right), given the prestige of the Trilogy and the milestone of its 25th Anniversary?

https://forum.blu-ray.com/4058215-post3558.html

Well, I do not feel ripped off as I do not buy Universal releases anymore

I invested wisely in The Bridge on the River Kwai and The Sound of Music instead - instant viewing enjoyment and the support of more worthy studios are all included in the price

The problem with the BTTF trilogy is not how at best mediocre it is but to see the ratings it gets for PQ. Imo it is a slap in the face of studios like Sony that get the same review scores for the very good work done with Kwai. It is ridiculous to even make an effort when one sees the high ratings for the BTTF trilogy and therefore I am happy that all other big studios do a much better job than Universal even though it is not really acknowledged by most reviewers.

That post you are linking to pretty much says it all and it is the reason why Universal is not getting any of my purchasing money anymore - don't cheap out on catalog or even go out of your way to make things worse than they have to be even on a limited budget! If a studio does that on a regular basis for the majority of their catalog I am not buying anything from them plain and simple. I know that I am in the extreme minority here but fortunately I can decide for myself on which titles I spend my money.

It is a pity that we have this situation with Universal as I know for a fact that there are many people working there who are passionate about movies and who want these Blu-Rays to be better. It seems though that they are not the ones who make these decisions.

[Paul H]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Do people feel similarly ripped off with this home media 2D movie (on the right), given the prestige of the Trilogy and the milestone of its 25th Anniversary?

https://forum.blu-ray.com/4058215-post3558.html

Originally Posted by Oliver K

That post you are linking to pretty much says it all and it is the reason why Universal is not getting any of my purchasing money anymore - don't cheap out on catalog or even go out of your way to make things worse than they have to be even on a limited budget! If a studio does that on a regular basis for the majority of their catalog I am not buying anything from them plain and simple. I know that I am in the extreme minority here but fortunately I can decide for myself on which titles I spend my money.

Thanks for the heads-up.
I bought the trilogy on impulse, haven't looked at them yet, and now I feel ripped off.
Minority or not, I also want to vote with my wallet to send a message to studio's that need to improve their authoring skills. while giving kudos to those that provide quality control.

Paul

[MerrickG]

Penton,

Can you elaborate on why Heavy Metal was cancelled on bluray?

If I had to guess, I would bet that music rights issues came up again..



ugh.