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Old 11-19-2008, 11:50 PM   #6021
DenonCI DenonCI is offline
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Penton,

Sorry to hear about your friends loss. The silver lining is they are safe and their material belongings can be replaced (hopefully they have insurance!).

Best regards,
 
Old 11-21-2008, 01:03 AM   #6022
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Here is an interesting article concerning Lowery.
http://www.studiodaily.com/filmandvi...sue/10226.html

Working Over The Robe With the Lowry System
First 'Scope Movie Restored in HD, on Tape, and to Preservation Negs
By Debra Kaufman
November 20, 2008 Source: Film & Video


“The Robe,” which premiered on September 16, 1953, was more than a typical Hollywood sword-and-sandal epic: it was also the first-ever film to be released in CinemaScope, a widescreen format that used anamorphic lenses to create a 2.55:1 aspect ratio. The story of a Roman tribune who wins Jesus’ robe after being responsible for crucifying him and then is driven by guilt to learn more about him, The Robe—which was directed by Henry Koster and shot by Leon Shamroy, ASC—was touted as “the first picture on the miracle curved screen,” and a spectacle that didn’t require special glasses.

Schawn Belston, VP of library and technical services at 20th Century Fox, reports that the restoration—at Lowry Digital in Burbank—was a collaboration between the Film Foundation, the Academy Film Archive and Fox. “The reason we chose this title was because it’s important historically as the first CinemaScope film,” he says. “And it posed certain challenges from a restoration point of view because it was in pretty bad shape.” Belston, who has worked with Lowry Digital before, says Lowry Digital was "uniquely qualified" to deal with the restoration. “The original camera negative contains a large number of dupe negatives, and the work required a large amount of [the type of] image processing that Lowry is well-known for.”

Lowry Digital, a subsidiary of Adlabs Films of India, has developed a proprietary “Lowry System” for digital restoration, says COO Mike Inchalik, who reports the company has restored over 400 films. The first step in restoring The Robe was to screen the Academy’s surviving release print. That screening was attended by Lowry Digital restoration artists and colorists to see the benchmarks they would try to reach.

The restoration process began by scanning the elements at 4K resolution with the company’s two Imagica film scanners. “The original camera negative had many, many areas where dupe negative was slugged in 12 or 14 times over the last years,” says Inchalik, who reports the original neg was an early generation Eastman Color. “The dupe negatives came from different labs, on different film stocks and at different periods of time.” Other elements included B&W reels of the YCM separations made of the original camera negative.

The Imagica scanners were ideal for handling the elements, says Inchalik. “There are three things you want to worry about when you’re handling older films. You want to be able to transport it gently, so you need good tension control to make sure you’re not pulling the film under duress, and Imagica’s transport does that. Imagica also does a very good job of having its pins tapered enough so it fits into holes of every size. They have a lot of safety features, so the risk of damage to the film is nonexistent. Third, Imagica does color accuracy really well. Particularly with older films, they do an extremely good job at scanning the full tonal range, which is important when you’re dealing with material that’s faded and you’re trying to extract every bit of color information.”

With many film aficionados proclaiming that film’s resolution is at least 6K, was a scan at 4K sufficient to capture all the information? “We did testing with Fox to demonstrate that it was enough,” says Inchalik. “The rule of thumb is that you should digitize at twice the resolution to get everything. First, you have to think about the smallest piece of grain, since it’s the grain that captures the photons of light and turns it into dye or silver. The other factor is how good the lens is that’s able to focus light onto the film plane. For The Robe, the grain was larger because it was older film stocks. The lenses of that era also reduced the resolution.”

In fact, the soft resolution of those lenses was one of the challenges in restoring the film. “The lenses used at the time were quite soft and had certain kinds of distortion,” Inchalik explains. “The photography itself was a little soft and a little more challenging than you’d like. And, of course, we were dealing with dupes, and dupes of dupes, and were trying to put those together in a way where it looked seamless. The amount of detail that was lost was impossible to reverse, which was what made this an extraordinary technical challenge.”

In an ideal world, the lowest common denominator would be high enough to match, making the end result seamless. “In this case, unfortunately, the lowest common denominator was so contrasty and absent of detail that you wouldn’t have wanted to pull the rest of the movie to that place,” he says.

Belston also noted that the digital restoration was intended to retain the film’s original look. “It had a specific anamorphic quality,” he says. “You can definitely see on the sides of the image a kind of distortion. We could have removed it digitally or minimized it but we decided to be as close to the original 2.55:1 presentation of the film as possible.”

After scanning, the film was color-corrected with Lowry Digital’s Baselight color correction system. Next came the Lowry Process, a Linux-based proprietary temporal image processing technique to regain detail and resolution and reverse the effects of duplication such as grain build-up, softening and excess contrast.

“The basis of our process is trying to improve the look of each individual frame by mathematically borrowing information from surrounding frames,” says Inchalik. “We get detail from surrounding frames and are correctly able to insert it where necessary to give a higher resolution result. To do that correctly, you can’t just look in the same area but know if something has moved frame-to-frame, where it is and what belongs to what. That technology is called motion estimation and we do that at an extremely precise level.”

Inchalik notes that “artifacts fall into categories. If you want to level out sharpness and grain throughout a movie and you get to an optical section where you’re dealing with a copy of a copy, we’re able to increase resolution,” he says. “The key behind it all is that if you’re able to correctly track what goes on from frame to frame, you can assess what belongs. If I have a piece of dirt in one frame, with nothing like it on the frames on either side, I know it doesn’t belong there. But to know that, I have to know where everything on all the frames is going. The highlight on an earring as a head turns might look like a piece or dirt, but if I can figure out it’s moving appropriately from frame to frame, I won’t remove it.”

Scratches are tougher, says Inchalik, since a scratch that moves might look like a telephone pole in the distance while the camera pans. “If my scratch is moving and the camera is stationary, it may tell that it’s not obeying the law of physics,” he says. “Still, you do need manual intervention to take out what the computer left in. The key is to make restorations affordable by making computers as smart as possible, and keep people working on the places where you need artistry.”

The restoration of The Robe took three months to complete. Lowry Digital delivered digital LTO tape, multiple preservation negatives for different archives, and HD masters. Belston, who says he is “thrilled” by the restoration, reports The Robe will get a Blu-ray release for Easter 2009. “A restoration is a labor of love,” says Inchalik. “If you haven’t seen the 'before,' you’ll never realize how far it came. Everything is judged by the final result.”
 
Old 11-21-2008, 04:56 PM   #6023
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Nice find.

Here’s a little background on the players mentioned/listed in order to make the information more personable to everyone reading.

Debra (the author), is a quite prolific journalist and has moderated several panel discussions involving the technological aspects of the motion picture business. She is very well respected amongst people in the industry.

Schawn Belston (a name previously mentioned in this thread by me if you do a search) belongs to that elite club of studio film preservation people along with Ned Price, Grover Crisp (and Michael F. ), Theo Gluck, etc. who are truly devoted to preserving our film heritage by the best means possible.

Mike (from Lowry Digital) originally worked for years at Eastman Kodak and is quite informed as to all aspects of film and the photochemical process before becoming more involved in the digital side of the restoration business.

In regards to the geek techniques………….
Lowry Digital has been using the ‘Lowry Process’, (essentially motion estimation technology) for quite a while (refining it over time) and the most unique application of their technology that comes to my mind is that for the feature film Journey to the Center of the Earth.

That production utilized two customized Sony HDC-F950 HD cameras rigged as a pair, one for left-eye image capture and the other for right-eye information. The HDCAM SR dual tapes were then handed off to Lowry Digital where they used noise reduction to balance the camera information, matching one camera to another and made the images sharper.

Everybody these days seems to have their own proprietary temporal image processing technique (motion estimation). For instance, DKP used their proprietary process to sharpen and degrain the 4k scan of the 35mm interpositive for The Dark Knight during that hybrid workflow for the IMAX theatrical presentation.

Digital Vision also has their own proprietary motion estimation process as seen here on this clip (also from the site you linked above) which shows a real world fix of a defect (in this case dirt), click on the video clip…………..
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/training/9938.html
( ^ this was taped back in July as part of a demo at http://www.editorslounge.com/)
B.T.W. – Bobby Henderson, if you’re reading, there’s also a nice demo clip in Editor’s Lounge of Adobe’s CS4 from last Sept.

A tidbit regarding film preservation in general -
It may surprise some people that the major studios actually perform resolution tests on the available film element of a motion picture as a preliminary step in their film archiving decisions as noted above regarding The Robe.
On that note, Fox also tested The King and I ………..and despite the fact that the film negative format was 55mm.,
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049408/technical

the available film element measured about 3k in its most detailed scenes.

Regarding The Robe, I hope we are all mature enough to differentiate spiritualism from religion similarly to appreciating the difference between politics and history, so, allow me to reveal that every time I’ve watched any incarnation of this motion picture, it has brought a tear to my eye during certain sequences. Personally, I wonder if when the Blu-ray comes out and I view it again, whether it will have the same effect on me or, if I have become more analytical and less emotional over time with age.

We shall see.
 
Old 11-21-2008, 06:06 PM   #6024
Deciazulado Deciazulado is offline
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For those interested:

The UCLA Film & Television Archive and Moving Image Archives Studies present:


THE ROBE
(1953, Henry Koster)
Free Admission

Monday, 24 November, Billy Wilder Theatre

Billy Wilder Theater
Courtyard Level, Hammer Museum
10899 Wilshire Boulevard (intersection of Wilshire and Westwood Boulevards)
Los Angeles, CA 90024
(310) 206-8013

Congratulations to SB and those involved. A favorite movie of mine and one of my first DVDs (in PAL edition to get that whole superwidescreen magnetic CinemaScope image big enough) so I'm looking forward to owning it on Blu-ray edition
 
Old 11-21-2008, 06:16 PM   #6025
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Adobe's software is growing ever more capable.

It's pretty interesting how the company is working with Red Digital Cinema on a new beta importer module. It will allow users to import native Red camera format video (even in 4K) into Premiere Pro CS4, After Effects CS4 and Encore CS4 without transcoding. You'll still need one hell of a beefy computer to process that kind of data.

Last edited by Bobby Henderson; 11-21-2008 at 06:21 PM.
 
Old 11-21-2008, 09:50 PM   #6026
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson View Post
Red camera format video (even in 4K)
Actually, to be precise, I believe the effective resolution of the RedOne with the best available lens, measures out to be about 3.2k -- as I alluded to here…………..
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...2K#post1299449

and confirmed by a RedOne owner and budding filmmaker (the same dude that has the e-mail addys of more than one Andy, etc.)…………
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...2K#post1301619

So, let’s not inflate the measured resolution of any acquisition device, as we here are better “scientists” than other uninformed parties.
 
Old 11-21-2008, 10:44 PM   #6027
NutsAboutPS3 NutsAboutPS3 is offline
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Penton, on the subject of RED, do you have any views you wouldn't mind sharing on the future products they're talking about?
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/scarlet.shtml

I'm personally quite excited about what might be achievable with those big sensors, but that's just based on my experience with digital still cameras, and of course the reality might be different when / if RED actually ship their future models.

For those who haven't seen it, Vincent Laforet's Reverie is a good example of what can be achieved with the Canon 5D Mk II Digital SLR's 1080p capability. The 5D Mk II has a 36mm x 24mm sensor. Some of the future cameras RED is talking about will have even bigger sensors, which should in theory allow even lower noise in low light, and even shallower DoF.
http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/control...articleID=2326
 
Old 11-22-2008, 04:34 AM   #6028
Bobby Henderson Bobby Henderson is offline
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I'm seriously considering buying a Canon EOS 5D Mark II. I have a few L-series lenses that would make use of that full frame 21.1 megapixel sensor. The 1080p HD AVC recording capability is an added bonus. But I'm mainly interested in the camera body for the still image capability.

If the EOS 5D Mark II turns out to be a big hit it could signal a new trend of "convergence" between video cameras and still cameras. It would also heat up the debate between in camera image stabilization or in lens image stabilization.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 05:55 AM   #6029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
Everybody these days seems to have their own proprietary temporal image processing technique (motion estimation). For instance, DKP used their proprietary process to sharpen and degrain the 4k scan of the 35mm interpositive for The Dark Knight during that hybrid workflow for the IMAX theatrical presentation.
Speaking of which - some scientists on another forum are already ripping up the BD based on screenshots, but who would have thought?
 
Old 11-22-2008, 06:33 AM   #6030
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Looking at the shots, I'd have to say that at least superficially, without seeing it in motion it looks consistant with the memory of what I saw in IMAX. I do see DNR in there (the Mayor for instance, and there are definately halos from sharpening), but I've seen reports of people seeing halos in the IMAX, and am totally prepared to accept that they were there theatrically.

Either way, worse comes to worse it looks like Nolan kept a firm hand on the smoothie throttle, and after finishing up the blur factory of the Matrix trilogy, I need to go cleanse my eyes with something with HF detail

What I found interesting was that the quality seemed to go down on Matrix as you go up in the series. It's like when they did the new transfer for the Ultimate Matrix set of the original, they were very hands-on for the final tape, applying theraputic DNR to even the whole thing out, but it was business as usual with some random tech for the other 2.

Penton, if you know anything about that I'd love to hear it, and if you can refer us to any good technical articles on the Dark Knight process I'd love to read them
 
Old 11-22-2008, 01:17 PM   #6031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987 View Post
Anyone caught posting screens has downloaded the movie through illegal means and should have their IPs logged and sent to the studio for further investigation.
Do blu-ray.com have permission from all the studios for the screenshots they use? Couldn't using screenshots fall under "fair use" or "fair dealing" rights or exemptions from copyright?

quote on UK copyright which is different from US especially on fair use:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
(1) Fair dealing with a literary, dramatic, musical … for the purposes of research for a non-commercial purpose does not infringe any copyright in the work provided it is accompanied by a sufficient acknowledgement …

s30.—(1) Fair dealing with a work for the purpose of criticism or review, of that or another work or of a performance of a work does not infringe any copyright in the work provided that it is accompanied by a sufficient acknowledgement and provided that the work has been made available to the public.
Don't the people who put screenshots up get them from the discs themselves? Is that how blu-ray.com do it? The thing is, to get screenshots (other than just taking a photo of a TV or screen), the people would have to use some program that would decrypt the content of the disc, and that would be against the DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act)? But isn't that act/encryption preventing the fair use/fair dealing of the two paragraphs above in not allowing "research for a non-commercial purpose" or "criticism or review" which is sort of what the sites are doing.

Assuming it's against the law, and if it's against the DMCA it might be (even though that act seems to exclude fair use/fair dealing rights), why has there never been attempts to stop it or court cases? Aren't the sites also providing free advertising for the Blu-ray titles being reviewed/commented on, and by people who are just buyers of the Blu-ray titles being reviewed?

Would taking 1 or 2 photos of a TV showing the movie be allowable (under fair use/fair dealing - as that hasn't required software to circumvent encryption which is disallowed under the DMCA), but posting screenshots without permission from the copyright holder from the actual data from the discs wouldn't be allowed if it required circumvention of encryption?

Last edited by 4K2K; 11-22-2008 at 01:30 PM.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 01:48 PM   #6032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987 View Post
The screens are from illegally downloaded copies. The disc is not for general sale, but you can download it from one of several torrent sites......
Not necessarily. Review copies are out, and at least
one dealer in New York has broken the release date.
So maybe not torrent. What they should do is tighten
up on who gets a review copy. There seems to be an
abundance of "Reviewers." All free for the asking. How
many copies has your office received to pass around?
 
Old 11-22-2008, 01:55 PM   #6033
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987 View Post
Anyone caught posting screens has downloaded the movie through illegal means and should have their IPs logged and sent to the studio for further investigation.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 02:05 PM   #6034
4K2K 4K2K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987 View Post
The screens are from illegally downloaded copies. The disc is not for general sale, but you can download it from one of several torrent sites.

I'm not saying do them for putting up screens, I'm saying investigate them for downloading the movie.
Sorry I didn't read the bit where you were talking about a movie that hasn't been released yet on Blu-ray, I thought you were talking about screenshots in general. In my big question I was asking about screenshots of released movies in general and whether they are allowed or not due to copyright/copyright exemptions for review/criticism/non-commercial research purposes.

Last edited by 4K2K; 11-22-2008 at 02:10 PM.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 02:26 PM   #6035
BluDomain BluDomain is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987 View Post
It's why I said further investigation, not prosecution.
How long have torrent sites been operating? I'd
say enough time for further investigation and
then some.

Quote:
I am not a fan of digital piracy...
Well, I'm certainly not either. The point I
was making is that there is an abundance of
sources available other than torrent. I'd start
investigating my own backyard. Even torrent
has to have a source.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 03:28 PM   #6036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987 View Post
The screens are from illegally downloaded copies. The disc is not for general sale, but you can download it from one of several torrent sites.

I'm not saying do them for putting up screens, I'm saying investigate them for downloading the movie.
I know of at least 3 online retailers who are already shipping the movie, plus I've seen an instance of Warner's own distribution center (WHV / Cinram) shipping out a copy. There are also many reports of mom & pop shops in NYC selling this disc in the last week.

So no, illegally downloaded copies is not the only way to have access to the movie at this time. I am not a reviewer, and I have a legitimate copy in hand at this very moment.

Last edited by neo_reloaded; 11-22-2008 at 03:30 PM.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 03:45 PM   #6037
Bobby Henderson Bobby Henderson is offline
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We're talking about screen shots from Blu-ray discs, right?

Honestly, it doesn't make a lot of sense to disable screen shot capability in Blu-ray movie playing software on computers. Sony's Playstation 3 ought to be able to do the screen shot thing too.

For one thing, AVC and VC1 video on Blu-ray doesn't store every film frame as a discrete, separate image. Lots of inter-frame data compression is used. Even if someone went to all the trouble to manually capture countless thousands of movie frames and assemble them into another copy of the movie that copy would be very inferior to the video on the original Blu-ray disc. Simple as that.

Older DVD-based software players wouldn't let viewers see every movie frame. The step forward button would jump 2, 3 or more frames with every click. Doesn't the newer versions of PowerDVD, etc. do that too?

Let's also not forget the fact that movie pirates do much of their illegal business when a movie is in theatrical release or even before the movie arrives in theaters. By the time the movie reaches home video the only folks that are going to give a fart about illegally copies of the movies are cheapskate techno-geeks who weren't going to buy/rent the movie anyway.

Last edited by Bobby Henderson; 11-22-2008 at 03:48 PM.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 04:10 PM   #6038
Jeff Kleist Jeff Kleist is offline
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Review copies have been out since the middle of last week, but there's an embargo on publishing reviews. I've logged at least a dozen instances of retailers breaking street as well.

Screenshots are disabled because the earliest computer based bust of DVD copy protection basically took 30 screenshots a second to copy the movie. Also enabling screenshots would move the data out of the protected zone.

Movie pirates do piles of business on ripped legit copies.

Personally I think WB was a fool not to hold everything until Monday, and review copies for the friday before street. The bullseye painted on DK's ass to be the first to have a rip out should have made this happening a foregone conclusion.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 05:25 PM   #6039
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavyHitter View Post
Speaking of which - some scientists on another forum are already ripping up the BD based on screenshots, but who would have thought?
That whole b*tch-fest situation over there regarding what they perceive (and hype waaay out of proportion) as needless, distracting flaws in the picture quality of what it seems like now affect (in their eyes) just about every Blu-ray movie that comes down the pipe is so ridiculous.

Because the whole ‘mission statement’ over there to legitimize their acting-out online with the current anti-flavors of the year being dnr and EE…….. is based upon the misguided presumption that executives from the major studios actually read their rantings and *screenshot analyses*……. which, said executives (and their assistants) purposely haven’t been paying attention to since even before the format war ended.

So, as to the chance of the *scientists* getting the ear of people having the power to make changes to fulfill whatever their current wishes are, is tantamount to Jim Carrey in this clip………
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX5jNnDMfxA

You know, that forum probably singularly won the online PR campaign in the format war with their tacit (by the administration) and overt (by the majority of the membership) endorsement of HD DVD largely due to worshipping the preachings of Amir, the quintessential HD DVD evangelist who lived on that board 24/7………….and still, despite all that online rhetoric over there, the reality is, that Blu-ray won the real world format war. So, it is ridiculous for them to think that their current *digital processing* campaign will even have a snowball’s chance in hell of succeeding, largely due to the fact that they are just so plain wrong and inaccurate regarding their observations and conclusions to begin with.

The tech guys from the majors stopped reading them long ago and the marketing people have these things on their radar screen now, and for the future, scroll down to “Here's What They're Talking About:”
………….
http://www.blu-con.com/

And I’ll tell ya, after the reception that “ender21” received on AVS despite the fact that he put a considerable amount of time and effort into earnestly explaining the production involving the Baraka Blu-ray disc, it would be naïve for them to expect “ender21” to post any more insider information concerning Baraka or one of Fotokem’s other projects.

So, like I predicted previously about 5–10 pages ago, the *scientists* would not only drive away the guys from the majors but also, the industry people from the minor studios and in this case, an independent contractor (i.e. Fotokem) who had “ender21” as its spokesperson for the Baraka project.

So, what are they accomplishing in the end?
1. They are dissuading some of their members who happen to pass by and read some of the hyped and inaccurate observations in their “PQ issue” threads from purchasing or even renting some fabulous Blu-ray titles.

2. Those that do in fact still rent or buy some of the Blu-ray movies that the screenshot scientists take issue with, still can’t totally enjoy their home media because they have been *pre-conditioned* that something is wrong with the movie so, they end up being unfulfilled in their home theater experience.

Speaking as a film enthusiast, that’s the true shame in what they are doing in the end.

Last edited by Penton-Man; 11-22-2008 at 10:26 PM. Reason: spelling
 
Old 11-22-2008, 05:30 PM   #6040
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist View Post
Looking at the shots, I'd have to say that at least superficially, without seeing it in motion it looks consistant with the memory of what I saw in IMAX. I do see DNR in there (the Mayor for instance, and there are definately halos from sharpening), but I've seen reports of people seeing halos in the IMAX, and am totally prepared to accept that they were there theatrically.

Either way, worse comes to worse it looks like Nolan kept a firm hand on the smoothie throttle, and after finishing up the blur factory of the Matrix trilogy, I need to go cleanse my eyes with something with HF detail

What I found interesting was that the quality seemed to go down on Matrix as you go up in the series. It's like when they did the new transfer for the Ultimate Matrix set of the original, they were very hands-on for the final tape, applying theraputic DNR to even the whole thing out, but it was business as usual with some random tech for the other 2.

Penton, if you know anything about that I'd love to hear it, and if you can refer us to any good technical articles on the Dark Knight process I'd love to read them
Jeff,
I don’t know anything about the Matrix stuff and as far as what I do know about The Dark Knight is what I heard about and recall last summer from here, scroll down to “PREVUE OF THE DARK KNIGHT”.
http://www.cinegearexpo.com/seminars2.html

Next time I see David K. from DKP
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ley#post861876.......

I’ll ask if there is any technical paper available online thoroughly discussing the post production of The Dark Knight. It was a complicated hybrid workflow.
 
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