"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

Voicing a strong editorial opinion in favor of Blu-ray and against HD DVD and also appearing, by way of heavy insider involvement, to be associated with the BDA to a level of journalistic impropriety. This was exacerbated by Bill's frequent availability to be a significant early disseminator of some of the BDA's more blatantly anti-consumer press releases and boastful wartime missives.

Doctorossi, I think the point that Jeff is making is that this forum and The Digital Bits had the cajones to take a stand on what they believed was a superior HD format from the get-go rather than like other sites hypocritically stating that their “official” stance was that of neutrality…..when in fact, their actions proved exactly the contrary.

Bill should be applauded (as well as membership here) for their early astuteness in regards to the technological superiority of the Blu-ray format but, I’ll let Bill speak for himself.

[Bill Hunt]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

I think that view is a little naive, Jeff. Were "spoiler" their only objective, I really think they could've done a lot better- yes, even inept, self-defeating Microsoft.

Spoiler was not their ONLY objective, but considering how many Microsoft people were spending time on the forums, and how MUCH time they were spending on the forums, spreading FUD, it was certainly part of their agenda. Some believed what they were saying, and some were saying things they wanted to be true, but there was a deliberate campaign of propaganda happening - on both sides of the format war. Some of the things I personally saw Microsoft employees say and post just flabergasted me.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

Seems a few members are a bit late to the format war party

I love these civil war reenactments every once in awhile, gets thee ole blood pumping.

[Doctorossi]

I'm just trying to describe the opinions I witnessed. I didn't share them, but I did see them.

Next time, I'll use a giant disclaimer.


THE VIEWS AND OPINIONS EXPRESSED IN THE FOLLOWING SPECIAL FEATURES DO NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT THE OPINIONS OF 20TH CENTURY FOX OR ITS PARENT COMPANY.

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I love these civil war reenactments every once in awhile, gets thee ole blood pumping.

That's a good one - the civil war of the home video formats

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Doctorossi, I think the point that Jeff is making is that this forum and The Digital Bits had the cajones to take a stand on what they believed was a superior HD format from the get-go rather than like other sites hypocritically stating that their “official” stance was that of neutrality…..when in fact, their actions proved exactly the contrary.

And I wouldn't have it any other way. However, he's making a mistake if he numbers me among those who had a problem with that stand. I wasn't part of it; I just mentioned it. Then, someone asked me to be more specific, so I described it.

DO NOT TALK ABOUT THE WAR!

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Bill Hunt

Spoiler was not their ONLY objective, but considering how many Microsoft people were spending time on the forums, and how MUCH time they were spending on the forums, spreading FUD, it was certainly part of their agenda. Some believed what they were saying, and some were saying things they wanted to be true, but there was a deliberate campaign of propaganda happening - on both sides of the format war.

This reflects my experience, as well.

[Grubert]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

I'm just trying to describe the opinions I witnessed. I didn't share them, but I did see them.

Next time, I'll use a giant disclaimer.


THE VIEWS AND OPINIONS EXPRESSED IN THE FOLLOWING SPECIAL FEATURES DO NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT THE OPINIONS OF 20TH CENTURY FOX OR ITS PARENT COMPANY.

Sorry, but that doesn't cut it.

You expressly accused:

(a) The BDA of putting out anti-consumer press releases and boastful wartime missives;
(b) Bill Hunt of spreading the above.

You didn't say that "forum members thought that...". You put out those actions as facts. Where are those facts?

Secondly, you speak as someone familiar with the format war at AVS - yet your user name draws a blank. What was your alias there?

[Slec]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

Geez. You guys really know how to kill a messenger around here.

Do you really think I'd spend so much time around here if my purpose was to resurrect a year-and-a-half-dead format-war and strike 'one more martyr blow for the good guys!'?

I mean... I may not have much of a life, but that's ridiculous!

refreshing to see that, to be sure. If you want to help the movies be delivered as all they can, you're in the right place. Some people stop in just to stir up sh!t from time to time. If that's not you Doc, don't take it personally.

As for any other readers out there, the team at the Bits, HTF, Penton, Amir and other INDUSTRY folks have a right to a more emotional investment as jobs, reputations and future $'s were at stake, and there was plenty of misinformation out there that continues to rear its head. THAT is where the emotion typically stems from. In business some entities lie, others show half truths, others take the high road and simply choose to sell their own product. As enthusiasts, we need to remove the emotion (and history because this is after all a BUSINESS) and simply push for the most accurate representation as possible to be delivered to us. In the end, that's what either of these formats needed to be about.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by BluDomain

Bull, but at least you exposed yourself finally.

The more I think about this post, the happier I am that the format war and its like hasn't made me bitter in any way.

Seriously, dude. Look at yourself- coming out of the woodwork to announce that your paranoid suspicions about another poster are finally verified.

Why don't you go watch a good movie and relax a bit. Yeesh.

[Esox50]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Doctorossi, I think the point that Jeff is making is that this forum and The Digital Bits had the cajones to take a stand on what they believed was a superior HD format from the get-go rather than like other sites hypocritically stating that their “official” stance was that of neutrality…..when in fact, their actions proved exactly the contrary.

Bill should be applauded (as well as membership here) for their early astuteness in regards to the technological superiority of the Blu-ray format but, I’ll let Bill speak for himself.

Amen, brother!!!

Widescreen Review Magazine was another one, like HTF, that to me lost a lot of respect. WSR since its inception goes around spouting off about wanting home theater "the best that it can be"...then basically had Amir up their @ss and supported HD DVD (and became a propoganda machine). When I got the last issue of WSR, there was an editorial by Reber about how the economy is tough and they're scaling back, hope they can survive, etc. About 3 years ago I would have been heart broken. Now, I was just like, "Oh well." If it weren't for some of the great product reviews (& tech faceoffs, like Plasma vs LCD vs CRT, etc) in WSR, I woulda canceled my subscription.

Anyway, let's let bygones be bygones and get back to enjoying our blu's (and the stock mkt the last week ).

-Esox

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Grubert

You expressly accused:

(a) The BDA of putting out anti-consumer press releases and boastful wartime missives;
(b) Bill Hunt of spreading the above.

You didn't say that "forum members thought that...". You put out those actions as facts. Where are those facts?

Oh, come on, man. My post was in direct response to someone asking me to describe the anecdote I'd mentioned in greater detail. Sorry I didn't take the time to write "Forum members thought that..." (and believe me, I AM sorry!), but it was CERTAINLY implied.

Think about it with logic for a second. Why would I come hang out at Bill's house every day for months and then one day just spontaneously call Bill an unethical jerk, right to his face? And over an entirely moot point!

[Jeff Kleist]

I don't know how you would get "needling, bitter ex-red ant" out of my mentioning a fact in passing. If you can point me to something I've done which demonstrates these qualities, I will apologize and defer to you, but I think "needling, bitter ex-red ant" describes me about as well as "cloud-hopping, tangerine-colored fairy princess" does.

Post has been deleted from a fight you had with someone here, but you said you bought an HD DVD player for Warner classics, called HD DVD's demise an "inside job murder"(not true BTW, WB gave Toshiba notice back in the fall that if they didn't have an amazing christmas they were done), and that the "sting was made extra sharp by the fact that warner pulled the trigger". It's not anyone's fault but theirs that they were stupid enough to believe that they could just drop more red suitcases in the right people's laps and it would be all better again

You're misinformed, and the people telling you things were outright lying, or were lied to and manipulated. If you want to learn the truth about what actually went down, on both sides, I'd be very happy to give you a summary via PM.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Slec

Some people stop in just to stir up sh!t from time to time. If that's not you Doc, don't take it personally.

It ought to be obvious that I'm not from the quantity of my posting here every day.

Thanks for the rational and friendly words, though.

[Bill Hunt]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

Voicing a strong editorial opinion in favor of Blu-ray and against HD DVD and also appearing, by way of heavy insider involvement, to be associated with the BDA to a level of journalistic impropriety. This was exacerbated by Bill's frequent availability to be a significant early disseminator of some of the BDA's more blatantly anti-consumer press releases and boastful wartime missives.

Your opinion. Not, however, accurate. VERY EARLY ON I said that this format war was a mistake. Very early on I also said that, based on all available information, Blu-ray likely had the edge. I did my best to remain open to both sides for as long as possible, however when Microsoft staffers paid their little visit to Austin's offices of AICN and made their offerings, and the result was a gleeful post from the editor filled with COMPLETE inaccuracies, I drew a line. That's when we officially backed Blu-ray editorially. I believe that was Summer 2007. July perhaps? What I saw at that time was a deliberate effort by Microsoft to buy support and to confuse early adopters and the undecided online. It was a deliberate effort to continue the format war at any cost, a format war which I had been against from the very start and which I knew would be costly, would badly damage the home video market (which I happen to love, as a film enthusiast) and end up hurting a lot of consumers - which, I might add, it did.

There are a lot of people who have opinions regarding the format war and how it played out. Mine, however, were formed in the trenches, not from flame wars on discussion forums. I spoke to EVERYONE involved at one point or another. I visited the studios, talked to the execs and technical people, sought opinions from all levels of the industry. I gave both sides a fair chance to convince me they had the better format. Almost from the very beginning, however, Blu-ray had the obvious edge - more studios, more directors, WAY more manufacturers, better and more forward-looking technology. Microsoft's presentation to me of HD-DVD was, in every respect, underwhelming. It was clear to me that they simply didn't understand the home video industry, they didn't understand early adopters, they did not understand film enthusiasts. I still believe their ultimate agenda was to tilt the playing field so as to favor their Xbox Live downloading service and to make money from compression technology. They were trying to create a situation in which, ultimately, Microsoft technology was at the heart of every living room. And the bottom line was that we just believed, and I continue to believe, that Blu-ray is the better format. I would like point out that the format war played out almost EXACTLY as I predicted from the very beginning. Not late in the game, but before both of these formats even launched. All of the people who burned me in effigy daily on places like AVS, HD Digest and HTF... all the people who made bold predictions about HD-DVD and how it was the future... they were ALL PROVEN WRONG. And the readers who trusted my advice during the format war are very glad they did. I'm proud of that.

My job is not to win a popularity contest. I learned a long time ago - back during the DVD/Divx format war - that no matter what I say, 30% of people who read it are going to think I'm an *******,and some will go on the forums under fake name and say so. So I don't worry about such things. I could be making a LOT more money if being the biggest DVD/HD website on the planet was my only goal. But that's not my goal. I don't want to be the biggest - I just want to be the best, by which I mean the most reliable. I want to give my readers the best, wisest advice I'm able to give, and to share my passion for watching movies in the best quality possible with them. That's what we've done through two format wars now, for close to 12 years.

And for those who say my opinions were purchased by the Blu-ray camp, I have this reply: BULLSHIT. We accepted advertising from all parties, as we had been doing from the start of the site back in 1997 and as we continue to do today. The BD studios purchased advertising, as did the HD studios. Actually, if you were actually reading the site, Toshiba purchased a lot of advertising on The Bits and still occasionally does - first to promote HD-DVD and now their "enhanced" upconverting DVD players. NONE of it influenced our editorial opinions or approach. PERIOD.

Neither did the 10th anniversary party that Disney and Fox hosted for The Bits and HTF at VSDA influence my opinion. I'd been friends with senior people at all of the studios for a decade. They wanted to honor our efforts in support of DVD and the home video market over the years, and I felt that our staffers and readers (and those of HTF) deserved it. Ironically, at that very party, the powers that be weren't going to allow Microsoft's Kevin Collins - one of the company's biggest HD-DVD promoters online - in the door. I PERSONALLY went out and brought him in with us. My wife and I spent about 30 minutes talking with him and had a great time doing so. I still consider him to be a friend. ANYONE who says I was paid and influenced by ANYONE during the format war for my opinions is full of crap.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Post has been deleted from a fight you had with someone here, but you said you bought an HD DVD player for Warner classics, called HD DVD's demise an "inside job murder"(not true BTW, WB gave Toshiba notice back in the fall that if they didn't have an amazing christmas they were done), and that the "sting was made extra sharp by the fact that warner pulled the trigger".

How does Warner presenting Toshiba an ultimatum change the fact that they were the studio whose pull-out of the HD DVD format spelled that format's doom (as was their intent in doing it)?

I used the flowery language I used in that post because, as with this situation, I was trying to describe the feelings of people who were upset.

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

You're misinformed, and the people telling you things were outright lying, or were lied to and manipulated. If you want to learn the truth about what actually went down, on both sides, I'd be very happy to give you a summary via PM.

I don't really care. All I care about is you not believing I would be the kind of jerk that would suddenly pee all over your lawn for no apparent reason.

[GabrielB]

C'mon. Why is everybody so hard on Doc?

Let's be cool.
I don't think he had bad intentions.

Yes thebits took a firm stand and still do. That's why we like them.
And yes they pissed a lot of people off. But that's just the consequences of their brave choice.

I'm sure they were offered incentives by the red ants back in the days to stop their efforts. Isn't that true guys...

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Bill Hunt

Your opinion.

No, Bill. Not at all my opinion. An opinion I witnessed in others and tried to describe accurately when asked about it. I failed to adequately clarify that it's not my opinion and I'm a little shocked and chagrined that that fact wasn't inferred from

1) context

and

2) the absolute illogic of my doing it from the perspective of all the other people here who see me post every day and really ought to know by now that it wouldn't make any sense at all for me to do it.

[Grubert]

Originally Posted by Bill Hunt

Your opinion. Not, however, accurate. VERY EARLY ON I said that this format war was a mistake. Very early on I also said that, based on all available information, Blu-ray likely had the edge. I did my best to remain open to both sides for as long as possible, however when Microsoft staffers paid their little visit to Austin's offices of AICN and made their offerings, and the result was a gleeful post from the editor filled with COMPLETE inaccuracies, I drew a line. That's when we officially backed Blu-ray editorially. I believe that was Summer 2007. July perhaps?

Late May, early June 2007.

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/32838
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articl...oap060107.html

[GabrielB]

wow....

So....
Bill... Since you're here. How's Warner battle going on?

me = people ?