HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ai7R04#t=2m13s
As mentioned before on another thread, delving deeper into both solutions, the dynamic metadata capability of Dolby Vision is more precise than that of HDR10+….

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

From your perspective as an editor, something you might like to know since I don’t see you mentioned it is that DV is also more refined than the HDR10+ approach in that DV is capable of providing frame-by frame metadata without any lag to speak of; whereas, the transform for HDR10+ defines scene-based metadata. This can be a benefit to creatives, but ultimately how significant this becomes to the public viewer, like was said – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post14032172 is TBD.

On the other hand, something else to consider is that for those facilities/people that are more budget minded, it can be difficult to get into the Dolby Vision metadata ecosystem as zmarty mentioned – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post14030027

So I think the little guys in the industry will look forward to the HDR10+ option for it being inherently less resistant for entrance into the dynamic HDR metadata game.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Ruined

All hdr10+ metadata is backwards compatible with HDR10. Except on UHDBD generally Dolby Vision will revert back to SDR instead of HDR10 on an hdr10 set.

By UHDBD you mean UHD 4K Blu-ray?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

By UHDBD you mean UHD 4K Blu-ray?

Yes

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by andreasy969

Yes, I'm from Germany. But no, I didn't. I wasn't at IFA, so I'm afraid I can't help you with that.

Too bad, the information was to be more advanced than what AV journalists have covered in their blogs and such.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Yes

So you are saying that DV disk will sometimes produce a SDR picture instead of a HDR10 picture on a HDR10 capable OLED or LCD?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

So you are saying that DV disk will sometimes produce a SDR picture instead of a HDR10 picture on a HDR10 capable OLED or LCD?

Not disc, because as I said UHDBD spec mandates HDR10 on all DV discs.

But other sources such as streaming, computer, gaming, cable, etc, with Dolby Vision you are at the mercy of the content provider to also give you a backwards compatible HDR10 metadata. On the other hand, HDR10+ will give you HDR10 metadata on all sources be it disc, streaming, cable, etc.

Bottom line HDR10 is built into HDR10+. HDR10 is not built into Dolby Vision and can result in SDR on non-disc sources.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

So you are saying that DV disk will sometimes produce a SDR picture instead of a HDR10 picture on a HDR10 capable OLED or LCD?

No. DV discs will always revert to a HDR10 layer.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

in town for CEDIA

Since it’s now imminent, heads-up to those locals perhaps hesistant to attend CEDIA because of not having industry affiliated/employee credentials, keep in mind a solution.....one is not required to be an exhibitor to gain entrance. Compliments of several companies, for example, https://www.russound.com/news/43-fre...7-registration just a general AV hobbyist can use their coupon code for free admission. Paperwork is self explanatory and only takes a few moments to fill out.

And back to the Top Gun theme, for those a little more adventurous and desiring a change when doing the show becomes tedious, drive on over to Point Loma to see *Viper’s house* and the overlook of the ocean beyond -

Top Gun (6/8) Movie CLIP - A Confidence Problem (1986) HD - YouTube

the Point Loma Lighthouse - https://www.nps.gov/cabr/planyourvisit/hours.htm

P.S.
Further on up the highway, bonus points go to any movie fans (more into education) who can tell where this scene was shot in Mr. Jones
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVKtVrNjNWs#t=53s

[Penton-Man]

Tunes to drive down the 5 with –

Counting Crows - Mr. Jones - YouTube

I'm outta here. I leave you in the capable hands of Geoff, et al.
Later.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Too bad, the information was to be more advanced than what AV journalists have covered in their blogs and such.

Yes, I'd also love to get some proper information on the dynamic meta data, be that with Dolby Vision or HDR10+. Most AV journalists or blogs don't seem to really know what it's really about. They basically just keep saying: HDR with dynamic meta data == better HDR blah bla blah. Makes no sense to me - I'd like to understand why. It's actually kind of sad.

From all I've read so far (also here), I still think that dynamic meta data only helps displaying the actual HDR content better on displays that can't display the actual HDR content properly/fully. With Dolby Vision also having an actual improvement built-in though (but what's the actual (aka noticable) impact?).

Anyway, from my point of view, please just give me display devices that can display the HDR10 stream properly. I see no need for dynamic meta data then. I actually think it's even paradoxical in regard to HDR. If the display device has to clip because of its nits limitations, please just clip. And nothing I've read so far, could convince me otherwise.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by Ruined

HDR10 is not built into Dolby Vision and can result in SDR on non-disc sources.

As Geoff said: Yes, it is. As far as I know Dolby Vision (as opposed to HDR10) has proper SDR conversion as well built-in though.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by andreasy969

As Geoff said: Yes, it is. As far as I know Dolby Vision (as opposed to HDR10) has proper SDR conversion as well built-in though.

Nope.

If you re-read Geoff's post you will note he limits his statement to discs.

The default Dolby Vision backwards compatibility layer is SDR, not HDR10. Only on UHDBD discs is it mandatory for DV to have an HDR10 layer.

On other sources like streaming, computer, gaming, cable, etc, there are no mandatory requirements like this and Dolby Vision will simply revert to SDR on a non-Dolby Vision set unless the content provider decides to also include HDR10 for you. But it is solely up to the content provider if they wish to do so. If the content provider decides not to, you won't get HDR at all on a non-DV TV and all projectors.

On the other hand, HDR10+ will revert to HDR10 on all HDR10 sets, everywhere. Very simple, if something supports HDR10+ it also supports HDR10 on all media formats and delivery methods, everywhere. This cannot be said about DV which will only definitely provide HDR10 on UHD discs - elsewhere, who knows what you will get with DV.

As a result HDR10+ is a much more consumer friendly format and a far better deal for those who wish to use projectors, which by nature do not work with dynamic metadata (unable to dynamically measure screen brightness due to different gain screens, different sizes, ambient light, etc).

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

No. DV discs will always revert to a HDR10 layer.

I thought Ruined was including the disks. I do think he could have been a bit clearer in his post.

Originally Posted by Ruined

All hdr10+ metadata is backwards compatible with HDR10. Except on UHDBD generally Dolby Vision will revert back to SDR instead of HDR10 on an hdr10 set.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Nope.

If you re-read Geoff's post you will note he limits his statement to discs.

I'm also only talking about discs.

The default Dolby Vision backwards compatibility layer is SDR, not HDR10. Only on UHDBD discs is it mandatory for DV to have an HDR10 layer.

But on UHD discs it is based on a HDR10 layer.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by andreasy969

I'm also only talking about discs.

But on UHD discs it is based on a HDR10 layer.

The problem is HDR is also present in many places other than discs.

So when discussing an HDR format war of sorts, limiting oneself to discs only is not really looking at the big picture.

Many people like to consume content from multiple sources - maybe a UHD Blu-ray disc, a 4k game, some cable TV, a streamed movie, and perhaps a file on a computer.

With HDR10+ metadata, in all of those different scenarios you'd also be guaranteed HDR10 metadata since HDR10 is built into HDR10+. With Dolby Vision, the only place you are guaranteed HDR10 is the disc format - everywhere else SDR-only might be your only fallback if you don't have DV. And some devices like projectors won't work with either HDR10+ or DV due to lack of method of measuring screen brightness, so having HDR10 backwards compatibility is actually a big deal.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Cool. With Panasonic onboard, along with Samsung, I think HDR10+ is going to be the future HDR metadata of choice on UHDBD. Its just a matter of time before its adopted as the standard of choice.

Except nearly everyone else is on board with DV.

As Panasonic stated, "with HDR10+ being an open standard it allows us to bring it much farther down the range." The extra cost savings allows for implementation on cheaper sets and greater penetration.

DV is already on "budget" TVs. Cost savings for HDR10+ is negligible.
DTS:X is also royalty free - yet Atmos is the standard for object audio.
Better performance counts for something.

Given HDR10+ and DV do the same thing, yet HDR10+ is both open and has superior HDR10 backwards compatibility across all media types, HDR10+ appears the better dynamic solution overall IMO. I personally wouldn't buy an expensive TV set at this point without HDR10+ to be safe. If HDR10+ does indeed become the standard then the amount of titles a DV set could use dynamic metadata on will be limited.

Except more & more TVs will be DV and need the HDR10 layer, it's also streamed by the major providers doing 4K. When they introduce 12-bit sets, HDR10+ will be obsolete.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by Ruined

The problem is HDR is also present in many places other than discs.

So when discussing an HDR format war of sorts, limiting oneself to discs only is not really looking at the big picture.

But I'm only concerned with it with discs, because with discs I'm kind of stuck when I bought into the wrong format.

If I cared about streaming, I wouldn't really bother at all tbh, since the content will always be up-to-date in the end. I might just need new hardware. With the discs I bought, I may be f***** though. Happened to people with HD-DVD not so long ago.

[PaulGo]

One question as I understand it HDR10 sets the level for the whole movie so it is considered static. Why can't HDR10 change on a scene by scene basis?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Except more & more TVs will be DV and need the HDR10 layer, it's also streamed by the major providers doing 4K. When they introduce 12-bit sets, HDR10+ will be obsolete.

Projectors can't use dynamic metadata of any sort due to inability to dynamically measure screen brightness, so even regular HDR10 is not going to be obsolete anytime soon.

12bit on its own doesn't mean much. Unless you also think that high-res DVD-Audio obsoleted CD & MP3? The dynamic metadata is what matters, not the extra 2 bits (diminishing returns).

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

One question as I understand it HDR10 sets the level for the whole movie so it is considered static. Why can't HDR10 change on a scene by scene basis?

That is what HDR10+ is