HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

Many years ago...

[Waboman]

Keep in mind there was originally 15 laws that governed HDR grading.

15...10 Commandments - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Oi. It’s en francais.

g, try this re: Harry - https://vimeo.com/258820614#t=35m33s
or, with regards to the politics of ‘grey areas’ and costs….https://vimeo.com/258820614#t=1h9m35s

[Penton-Man]

after referencing Peter Doyle so much, should give a shout out to an upcoming TV series in HDR (by the ‘unique minds’ Waboman of The Big Lebowski, Fargo, etc.) The Ballad of….https://www.netflix.com/title/80200267

[LordoftheRings]

I don't have any technical background in today's ever fast picture technology...Advance HDR and HLG and HDR10+ and Dolby Vision. You are a nice man Mr. Penton in motivating us to participate.

I would like to contribute in your highly educative and technical thread, and the best I can do is to take my time and learn from you, from your posts, learn the graphs, the terms, what it all means, how it is implemented today in our front projectors and super flat panels of various technologies...OLED, QLED, LED, MicroLED, ...

I have no idea of the percentage of readers who have a fair grasp on the latest HDR development's front. I consider myself @ the bottom of the ladder.

The best I can do is ask you the questions that come to me. So I'll try to do just that.

1. In regards to HDR10+ and Dolby Vision, from very little I know, where are we truly going; in both directions equally or in one more than the other?

2. Dolby charges a licence fee for their technology, as HDR10+ doesn't. How important can it plays financially and visual performance wise for both the manufacturers of displays and projectors and us the video consumers?

3. Where do you predict we'll be @ the end of the year 2020 regarding HDR in 4K front projectors, and Dolby Vision in flat panel displays?
_____

Just for complementary addendum, in super simple easy terms:




• https://www.techradar.com/news/heres...ivals-to-hdr10

[Staying Salty]

https://www.shootonline.com/spw/mti-...-cortex-v5-nab

Highlights of v5 include new Edit Tool functions to support Dolby Vision. Users can more easily manage complex metadata by overwriting, inserting, deleting or copying and pasting Dolby Vision metadata directly into compositions.

[Staying Salty]

https://www.pr.com/press-release/749817

The needle hasn’t moved much from last year’s Pre-NAB discussion when it comes to High Dynamic Range (HDR) in post-production. While HDR offers a noticeable improvement with picture quality when compared to HD and 4K, multiple standards make it difficult to implement. Even with the HDR 10 standard and Dolby Vision in place, peak brightness levels (or Nits) are still varied meaning there is little to no consistency in deliverables. “There’s really no standardized alignment on where we are going to put things,” said Terence Curren. “If you put a white title up, where do you put it in terms of Nits? Nobody knows exactly what to do and where to put things. That’s why I say it’s the Tower of Babel right now.” Nonetheless, with Netflix flooding the Hollywood market with content, post facilities are now required to deliver in HDR, which requires an astronomical financial investment to upgrade equipment. Making the move to HDR however, is crucial for post houses to remain successful in coming years.

I think that is a bad analogy. The Tower of Bable = one voice , afterward = say what

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

...
The best I can do is ask you the questions that come to me. So I'll try to do just that.

1. In regards to HDR10+ and Dolby Vision, from very little I know, where are we truly going; in both directions equally or in one more than the other?

2. Dolby charges a licence fee for their technology, as HDR10+ doesn't. How important can it plays financially and visual performance wise for both the manufacturers of displays and projectors and us the video consumers?

3. Where do you predict we'll be @ the end of the year 2020 regarding HDR in 4K front projectors, and Dolby Vision in flat panel displays?
_____

I can’t presume to answer for Penton, but as for Q.2, it’s my opinion that ‘said’ license fees for hardware and software (movies) are so reasonable that when they are baked into the retail prices you can’t tell a DoVi included item from one that is only HDR10.

Take movies for example, there are numerous catalog titles released by Lionsgate with an SRP of $22.99 that include DoVi. These titles are no higher or lower priced than HDR10 releases. And brand new release titles from Sony and Disney are retailing for the same price as HDR10 only releases were selling for before DoVi was included.

As for hardware, LG, Sony and Philips players with DoVi sell for reasonable prices, similar to prices for Samsung and non-DoVi Sony players. The prices for ultra high-end Panasonic or Oppo players can’t really be equated with the other mass market players due to superior build quality and feature sets.

When it comes to TV’s, prices are so far all over the place it’s nigh impossible to do comparisons.
Note though that Vizio and TCL manage to include DoVi and still sell at sub $1,000 prices.

So opinions and arguments from many folks about “costly” DoVi licensing fees just don’t hold any water in my opinion. I don’t believe they could prove how much more anyone has had to pay for a Dolby Vision product. End of story.

[jibucha]

great post :: i agree (entirely)

it's about time someone brought attention to this nonsense

Originally Posted by gkolb

I can’t presume to answer for Penton, but as for Q.2, it’s my opinion that ‘said’ license fees for hardware and software (movies) are so reasonable that when they are baked into the retail prices you can’t tell a DoVi included item from one that is only HDR10.

Take movies for example, there are numerous catalog titles released by Lionsgate with an SRP of $22.99 that include DoVi. These titles are no higher or lower priced than HDR10 releases. And brand new release titles from Sony and Disney are retailing for the same price as HDR10 only releases were selling for before DoVi was included.

As for hardware, LG, Sony and Philips players with DoVi sell for reasonable prices, similar to prices for Samsung and non-DoVi Sony players. The prices for ultra high-end Panasonic or Oppo players can’t really be equated with the other mass market players due to superior build quality and feature sets.

When it comes to TV’s, prices are so far all over the place it’s nigh impossible to do comparisons.
Note though that Vizio and TCL manage to include DoVi and still sell at sub $1,000 prices.

So opinions and arguments from many folks about “costly” DoVi licensing fees just don’t hold any water in my opinion. I don’t believe they could prove how much more anyone has had to pay for a Dolby Vision product. End of story.

[DanBa]

UHD Phase B Guidelines document is now officially out.
https://ultrahdforum.org/resources/p...s-description/
https://ultrahdforum.org/wp-content/...lines-v1.0.pdf

UHD Phase B = UHD Phase A (i.e. HDR10 + HEVC HLG) + Dolby Vision + SL-HDR1 (i.e. Technicolor HDR)


UHD Phase B Technologies:
. Dynamic HDR metadata systems, including Dolby Vision and SL-HDR1
. Dual layer HDR technologies
. High Frame Rate
. Next generation audio including Dolby® AC-4 and MPEG-H audio
. Content-aware encoding
. AVS2 video codec


Dolby Vision broadcast production facility:




SL-HDR1:




Bandwidth increases for various video format improvements:

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

https://www.pr.com/press-release/749817
say what

You don’t know Terence. Several years ago, every chance he got he would be whining publicly about 4K (and the cost to upgrade to a high-rez pipeline in a post facility), now I guess HDR is his whipping boy…in several years I’d expect he’ll be whining about HFR, its teething problems and cost as an excuse not to upgrade to that next gen format. He’s definitely not the type of fellow my ophthalmology friends (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...k#post11064673) would like to have around in their lab; otherwise, nothing new would ever be discovered or adopted.

Contrary to his misgivings, other small facilities have willingly adopted even Dolby Vision, e.g. from last November….

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

In-house Dolby Vision mastering capability filtering down to even the smaller post houses, e.g. demo this evening in Silver Spring, MD. - https://otthouse.splashthat.com/?em=537 (just off the beltway for locals).

And I just posted in the last few pages about The Look (http://www.thelooklondon.com/) and Marquise Tech (http://www.marquise-tech.com/hdr.html) joining the HDR team.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by gkolb

I can’t presume to answer for Penton.....

Your guys’ answers to LordoftheRings questions are just as good as mine….perhaps even more so as I’m a bit biased for Dolby Vision and the AVSG.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

Bandwidth increases for various video format improvements:

^ That’s been a big impediment to a quicker embrace of HFR….not its worthiness as an increase in picture quality to viewers, which is just as good (or perhaps superior especially if objects move and the camera pans to follow them) than HDR for action sports.

The holy grail of next gen video will be HDR + HFR.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Your guys’ answers to LordoftheRings questions are just as good as mine….perhaps even more so as I’m a bit biased for Dolby Vision and the AVSG.

Thanks.

But I took no stabs at Q 1 or 3.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

my ophthalmology friends (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...k#post11064673)....

And after having received the prestigious National Medal of Technology and Innovation, the nation's highest award for technology achievement - https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...300199517.html

Mark and colleagues pioneering work continues with another first - http://eye.keckmedicine.org/wp-conte...al-version.pdf

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

YCbCr....ICtCp

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

NAB

For those interested, watch the Sony press conference here -
https://livestream.com/SonyPro/SonyNAB2018

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

....a shout out to an upcoming TV series in HDR (by the ‘unique minds’ Waboman of The Big Lebowski, Fargo, etc.) The Ballad of….https://www.netflix.com/title/80200267

For those not following, https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/list...x-2018-w514944

Peter Doyle is the supervising digital colorist for TBoBS.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Waboman

the Masters

the cat - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=8591 tells me she wants to see the golfer dislocating his ankle….didn’t realize it was possible for a human to do that sort of thing in celebration.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

For those interested, watch the Sony press conference here -
https://livestream.com/SonyPro/SonyNAB2018

From ^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah5ufhBcQxA#t=43m49s