HDR Discussion Thread

[Nothing371]

Originally Posted by alexanderg823

Well for all we know Amazon may not be lying, and they may actually have HDR10+ content on their servers.

But we have no idea if it's actually working because there's no differentiating logo on either the streaming end (there is with DV content on amazon) or even on the TV itself (like there is with dolby vision on LG/Sony).

So it could be broken and not only would no one would know, but they wouldn't even know where along the chain it's broken.

I've checked out some of the older Amazon HDR content that is supposed to have HDR10+ and I couldn't tell a lick of difference compared to using the streaming app and a regular HDR10 app on an external device. So i'd be shocked to hear that is is actually working.

Yeah, I find Prime streaming infuriating because nothing is labelled HDR or Dolby Vision and most stuff isn't labelled 4K or "ultra high definition" either. It's difficult to search for 4K shows and it would seem most of them, which are few and far between, don't even have any sort of HDR. Amazon Video really needs to get their shit together.

If "streaming is the future", like so many turds say on here...well then the future ****ing sucks.

[alexanderg823]

Originally Posted by Nothing371

Yeah, I find Prime streaming infuriating because nothing is labelled HDR or Dolby Vision and most stuff isn't labelled 4K or "ultra high definition" either. It's difficult to search for 4K shows and it would seem most of them, which are few and far between, don't even have any sort of HDR. Amazon Video really needs to get their shit together.

If "streaming is the future", like so many turds say on here...well then the future ****ing sucks.

they have a 4k originals section now if you scroll down wher eyou can find stuff.

And they do have labels for HDR or Dolby Vision on the episode information if you check. None for HDR10+ though.

[Nothing371]

Originally Posted by alexanderg823

they have a 4k originals section now if you scroll down wher eyou can find stuff.

And they do have labels for HDR or Dolby Vision on the episode information if you check. None for HDR10+ though.

dude. I scrolled through 50 sections the other day when I tried. I've seen the section before but its not always there. Also when I search for '4K' , 'UHD', or 'HDR' it pulls up a bunch of things that are not labelled.

I will have to check the individual episodes like you suggested though.

[alexanderg823]

Originally Posted by Nothing371

dude. I scrolled through 50 sections the other day when I tried. I've seen the section before but its not always there. Also when I search for '4K' , 'UHD', or 'HDR' it pulls up a bunch of things that are not labelled.

I will have to check the individual episodes like you suggested though.

It's different now, it's not in the typical section, I forgot what it's called.

But you scroll down through the typical sections where the movies go from left to right, eventually you'll reach a part where it's not movies that scroll left to right, it's little boxes of subsections that scroll left to right. the first one is 4k prime originals. I'll check later and see if I can get you more info and a pic or something when I'm home.

[avs commenter]

IF HDR10+ ever happens, there will be a press release or some kind of announcement. It's not just going to show up on Amazon randomly.

[BluRayHiDef]

What's the point of HDR10+? We've already got Dolby Vision to deliver a higher bit depth than 10 bits. I understand that HDR10+ will be cheaper for TV manufacturers to incorporate into their TVs relative to Dolby Vision, but will it be so cheap that it warrants waiting all this time and forcing movie studios to derive a second transfer relative to good ol' HDR10 from the Dolby Vision source for their movies?

[alexanderg823]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

IF HDR10+ ever happens, there will be a press release or some kind of announcement. It's not just going to show up on Amazon randomly.

lol. that's the problem. There was an announcement.

https://news.samsung.com/global/sams...-hdr10-content

Samsung Electronics and Amazon Prime Video today announced the entire Prime Video HDR library is now available in HDR10+, a new open standard that leverages dynamic metadata to produce enhanced contrast and colors on an expanded range of televisions. The Prime Video HDR10+ catalogue includes hundreds of hours of content such as Prime Originals The Grand Tour, The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, Jean-Claude Van Johnson, The Tick and The Man in the High Castle plus hundreds of licensed titles. Prime Video is the first streaming service provider to deliver HDR10+ content to its users. HDR10+ is available on the entire Samsung 2017 UHD TV lineup – including the premium QLED TV models.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by alexanderg823

I've checked out some of the older Amazon HDR content that is supposed to have HDR10+ and I couldn't tell a lick of difference compared to using the streaming app and a regular HDR10 app on an external device. So i'd be shocked to hear that is is actually working.

Exactly! Yet, their claim is that you have been watching HDR10+, for the last 6 months. So there are only two possibilities:
1. They are lying*, and have been all along.
2. HDR10+ is working but makes an insignificant, invisible difference to picture quality.

* I suppose Hanlon's razor also applies, but accusing them of lying gets their attention a bit more such that they might actually act on it.

[alexanderg823]

Originally Posted by BluRayHiDef

What's the point of HDR10+? We've already got Dolby Vision to deliver a higher bit depth than 10 bits. I understand that HDR10+ will be cheaper for TV manufacturers to incorporate into their TVs relative to Dolby Vision, but will it be so cheap that it warrants waiting all this time and forcing movie studios to derive a second transfer relative to good ol' HDR10 from the Dolby Vision source for their movies?

I still firmly believe its intended purpose is to be a bargaining chip used by certain players, lead by Samsung, as a power play to cut some kind of deal with Dolby in regards to Dolby Vision. From what I've read, the cost associated with HDR10+ in the end doesn't differ significantly from Dolby Vision.

There's little reason for it to exist and there's very little evidence of its existence as a working product intended for consumer use. The prolonged press releases and fluff pieces with no working product and mysterious availability seem to indicate that.

[Penton-Man]

Lots of cinematographers in town this week for a Summit, with the Euros being especially well represented. Ergo, a retrospective tribute to some of the artists over the years…..
https://vimeo.com/262637261

On a camera list note, Netflix today updated their primary camera list for 4K/UHD productions -
https://help.prodicle.com/hc/en-us/a...-Image-Capture

[Penton-Man]

which I believe can be enhanced by HDR grading

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by BluRayHiDef

What's the point of HDR10+?

Viewing any situation from a different angle (Journal Club learning download - https://www.researchgate.net/publica...DRWCG_displays ),

I’d say that feature films from the likes of Hollywood studios and Netflix aside, I think HDR10+ could have value in the short term for small independent guys who would be able to master HDR10+ content on their own, *it’s hoped* by fellow members like zmarty to be without quite the same degree of hassle of licensing fees and hardware (Dolby Content Mapping Unit, Dolby recommended HDR mastering monitors (admittedly expensive) that Dolby presents to the do-it-yourself-ers for their small scale projects.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Lots of cinematographers in town this week....

which included listening to a panel discussing HDR workflow….

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

a HUGE amount of effort in the entertainment business is related to marketing

a different focus group (including ‘Al Pacino’, ‘Owen Wilson’ , ‘Matthew McConaughey’, ‘George Clooney’ and others) also discussing HDR…..
https://vimeo.com/272982054

[avs commenter]

Originally Posted by alexanderg823

lol. that's the problem. There was an announcement.

https://news.samsung.com/global/sams...-hdr10-content

I was under the impression they announced it was on it's way and not actually here yet. The whole thing seems purposely vague.

[avs commenter]

and while I like that Amazon does not charge extra for UHD. The quality of their UHD stream is much worse than Netflix

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I think HDR10+ could have value in the short term for small independent guys who would be able to master HDR10+ content on their own...

Interesting choice of words.

[alexanderg823]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

I was under the impression they announced it was on it's way and not actually here yet. The whole thing seems purposely vague.

I don't mean to be rude, but did you actually read the announcement?

There's really nothing vague about it:

Prime Video is the first streaming service to implement HDR10+,
now available on the entire Samsung 2017 UHD TV lineup

Samsung Electronics and Amazon Prime Video today announced the entire Prime Video HDR library is now available in HDR10+,

Prime Video is the first streaming service provider to deliver HDR10+ content to its users. HDR10+ is available on the entire Samsung 2017 UHD TV lineup – including the premium QLED TV models.

The launch marks the first opportunity for consumers and the industry to experience HDR10+ technology through a streaming service

There's really nothing "vague" here at all. It seems pretty straightforward.

The only thing "vague" is why it's not available as it seems to clearly claim, and hasn't been available for over half a year now, and what the hell is going on with HDR10+, if it exists at all.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by alexanderg823

The only thing "vague" is why it's not available as it seems to clearly claim, and hasn't been available for over half a year now, and what the hell is going on with HDR10+, if it exists at all.

Absolutely. It's a very clear statement. Whenever it's questioned, a genuflecting journalist just relays messages back along the lines of "I've been assured that the Emperor's new clothes are on".

With regard to production of HDR10+ being almost as difficult as dolby vision, that's vastly different to what I've read from highly respected HDR creator Tom Roper. He wrote about how time-consuming and convoluted it was, whereas we've been told here that the HDR10+ metadata is just an automatic process.

link:

Creating the artistic intent metadata requires very little data but a separate trim pass for each Dolby certified television. What a royal PITA! You can't do this yourself, the tools, the licensing, the equipment is miles beyond what a small production can afford, making DV the exclusive domain of the seven major Hollywood studios and Netlfix, Vudu and Amazon.

If quantity is "a quality unto itself" who is the content king?

YouTube have produced a dual layer content delivery system of their own using a base layer + enhancement layer system with 90% of the benefit and only a fraction of the cost, available license free to all content creators. A content creator need only upload an HDR master + 3D cube Lut that provides the artistic guidance for generating the YouTube VP9 mezzanine file that is supported on all 2016+ Samsung SUHD models running current firmware, or available to others via the Chromecast Ultra dongle, and backward compatible to SDR devices.

The concept of display targeted brightness is otherwise folly in the sense of creating lots of extra work for content creators and generating revenues for patent holders, for very little extra benefit over competing solutions such as YouTube or BBC/NHK Hybrid Log Gamma which vastly expand the quantity and broadcast opportunities for HDR content, the latter returning control over peak brightness with "the knob" under the control of the user.

[Nothing371]

Originally Posted by alexanderg823

It's different now, it's not in the typical section, I forgot what it's called.

But you scroll down through the typical sections where the movies go from left to right, eventually you'll reach a part where it's not movies that scroll left to right, it's little boxes of subsections that scroll left to right. the first one is 4k prime originals. I'll check later and see if I can get you more info and a pic or something when I'm home.

yeah, back to what we were talking about yesterday, it's still like I thought. None of the shows or movies on Prime Video are labelled as anything other than "UHD" on the box banner. There are no further details or additional info on the show pages, the seasons, nor on any of the episodes.

Then again, I know that my Sony TV is linked to my Prime Video account on the TV's app. i.e. the app knows it's playing on a Sony TV; I had to tie my particular TV to my Amazon account. So perhaps it has additional information for shows when used on other differently branded devices.