HDR Discussion Thread - Page 338 - Blu-ray Forum

Penton-Man · 09-18-2018, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Looks like a boring place, like the Nevada desert.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Perhaps when in a classroom for hours on end at NAS Fallon;

but not while preparing to climb into the cockpit - http://www.tmz.com/2018/09/17/tom-cr...un-2-maverick/

Geoff D · 09-18-2018, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gkolb

Just to CLARIFY, back when the HDR10+ talk started, it was explained that the 10+ metadata would be included in the main base layer. NOT as an extra layer.

Yeah, calling it an extra "layer" is incorrect. We talk of "layers" with Dolby Vision on disc because the enhancement stream is just that, an extra layer that contains the difference data as well as the metadata (or just the metadata in the case of such encodes) but there is no difference data to carry with +, it's literally just a teeny tiny packet of additional metadata along with the main HDR10 stream which will still be the "static" version. And yet how can they generate dynamic metadata from it? BECAUSE HDR10 WAS NEVER GRADED WITH "STATIC" FIXED LEVELS IN THE FIRST PLACE, IT'S ONLY THE METADATA THAT'S STATIC. Ahem.

Given Penton's question, on paper it should be fairly easy to get all three to play nice with each other. You start with a Dolby Vision workflow, creating the requisite metadata and use that to generate the HDR10, which is then analysed against the DV master to create the unique difference data as per normal. The HDR10 grade is then run through the Plus-O-Matic to generate the + metadata, and after that it's up to the encoding/authoring software to make sure that the HDR10 base layer, DV enhancement layer and + metadata are laid onto disc with the proper protocols. Maybe that's easier said than done though, as introducing new stuff into an existing authoring chain doesn't always go smoothly.

alexanderg823 · 09-18-2018, 09:06 PM

The only reason I mentioned that is because I vaguely remember reading here or at avsforum that there was difficulty in getting Dolby vision to play nice as a layer on top of hdr10+, and this was the crux of the issue.

gkolb · 09-18-2018, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexanderg823

The only reason I mentioned that is because I vaguely remember reading here or at avsforum that there was difficulty in getting Dolby vision to play nice as a layer on top of hdr10+, and this was the crux of the issue.

The extra layer theory for 10+ was bandied about for quite some time in some circles. I think the memo with the real explanation never got to some places.

Geoff D · 09-18-2018, 10:50 PM

To provide information from an actual expert:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2themax

Actually, it's the HDR10 stream that is the concern. It seems trivial to embed the dynamic metadata but compatibility issues could arise.

2themax also had this to say about a three-flavour disc in January:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2themax

My current reading of the spec is yes but not within the same piece of video. So to do so, you'd have to double up on the encodes.

Reading between the lines, it could well be that you can't interrupt the Dolby encoding/authoring process to introduce the + metadata, so to encode them all onto a disc you'd need a separate transport stream for HDR10 with the + metadata and another transport stream for the HDR10 layer that's part of the DV encode, even if that HDR10 is identical to the one supporting the + metadata. And that ain't gonna happen, not even with a 100GB disc.

So confusing! We need said actual expert back in here to give us an update.

2themax · 09-19-2018, 02:55 AM

It's been a while since I looked into this but I did find a clearer answer this time when digging into it. The answer is yes. HDR10+ and Dolby Vision can, per spec, coexist within the same encode. Now will they? That's still unknown.

And not to blow anyone's mind, but Philips (SL-HDR2) can be in there too at the same time.

Penton-Man · 09-19-2018, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

http://www.tmz.com/2018/09/17/tom-cr...un-2-maverick/

And not pictured in the ^ TMZ article, said fighter jet expanded –

DanBa · 09-19-2018, 07:19 AM

HDR video distribution over IP / Gigabit Ethernet:
"Atlona has developed an algorithm for OmniStream that enables full preservation of Dolby Vision HDR metadata while maintaining visually lossless image encoding and decoding, for full interoperability with Dolby Vision HDR streaming media players, Ultra HD Blu-ray devices, and displays.
Atlona’s OmniStream AV over IP product line overcomes the limitation of typical video distribution systems over Gigabit Ethernet networks that eliminate the metadata necessary for Dolby Vision 12-bit at 60 frame-per-second playback, or uncompressed distribution systems that are limited to only 30 frames per second."
https://atlona.com/omnistream-av-over-ip-dolby-vision/

4K HDR source (UHD Blu-ray player, streaming player, …) > HDR video signal >> HDMI >> 4K HDR display

4K HDR source > HDR video signal >> HDMI >> AV_over_IP compression encoder >> Gigabit Ethernet network >> AV_over_IP decompression decoder >> HDMI >> 4K HDR display

Geoff D · 09-19-2018, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2themax

It's been a while since I looked into this but I did find a clearer answer this time when digging into it. The answer is yes. HDR10+ and Dolby Vision can, per spec, coexist within the same encode. Now will they? That's still unknown.

And not to blow anyone's mind, but Philips (SL-HDR2) can be in there too at the same time.

The Philips version is just SEI metadata atop a BDMV HDR stream, correct?

2themax · 09-19-2018, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The Philips version is just SEI metadata atop a BDMV HDR stream, correct?

Yes.

Penton-Man · 09-19-2018, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Food for thought: Since it only requires a little more than 10 MB to add HDR10+ metadata to a disc (for a 2 hr. movie), will Ultra HD Blu-ray discs be coming out anytime soon from any studio including Dolby Vision, HDR10+ and HDR10 all on the same disc?

Precision correction to the above ^ post which prompted all the recent discussion. More accurate to say about 12 MB (for 2 hr. movie).

Penton-Man · 09-19-2018, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanBa

HDR...

Good website - https://tv.theiet.org/?home
Coming soon - https://tv.theiet.org/?videoid=12435

Penton-Man · 09-19-2018, 05:01 PM

Follow-up to exclusive heads-up post of August 23, 2018 - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post15446571

https://www.sfgate.com/movies/articl...e-13239763.php

Penton-Man · 09-19-2018, 08:03 PM

^ Next stop –>
NZY

Penton-Man · 09-20-2018, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...20/1137656002/

You judge for yourselves. Does Val –

still demonstrate that good acting ability?

I think so.

Penton-Man · 09-20-2018, 04:35 PM

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post15461429

A study to better understand the impact of ambient illumination on contrast and shadow detail visibility and to further guide ambient compensation algorithms as touched on in the Addendum of the post above, will be presented by Scott Daly and Robert Wanat on Tuesday Oct. 23 at 4:45 P.M in the San Jose room at the upcoming 2018 SMPTE Annual Tech Conference. It’s titled ‘Black Level Visibility as a Function of Ambient Illumination’ in which investigators used a filtered Dolby Pulsar which enabled black levels as low as 0.0005 nits.

Penton-Man · 09-20-2018, 04:40 PM

Thanks

for the movie clapper pic, will post later on today. Gotta run.

Penton-Man · 09-20-2018, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Note to our Hawaiian membership....If you’re in the area, stop over and send us.... a pic of the movie set.

Penton-Man · 09-20-2018, 11:45 PM

Note to PeterTHX and Robert Zohn - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post15511046 (and buzzard767 if you happen to be flying by from AVS) -

“and the new F-35 Strike Fighter”
https://www.sfgate.com/movies/articl...e-13239763.php

Penton-Man · 09-20-2018, 11:52 PM

Since the effect of surround light on detection thresholds based on the Rogers and Carol model to be discussed during a presentation at the upcoming SMPTE 2018 Annual Technical Conference & Exhibition I posted a heads-up to on the last page may be a bit overwhelming to some, a less complex

Food for thought:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/andream...ompanies-2018/

As a consumer electronics company, one company made it into the top 20 of this ^ Forbes 2018 worldwide list. Panasonic, Sony or LG Electronics?

09-18-2018, 09:06 PM	#6743
alexanderg823 Senior Member Member since:Feb 2016 Trading Score:12	The only reason I mentioned that is because I vaguely remember reading here or at avsforum that there was difficulty in getting Dolby vision to play nice as a layer on top of hdr10+, and this was the crux of the issue.

09-19-2018, 02:55 AM	#6746
2themax BD & UHD Insider Member since:Jan 2008 Trading Score:8	It's been a while since I looked into this but I did find a clearer answer this time when digging into it. The answer is yes. HDR10+ and Dolby Vision can, per spec, coexist within the same encode. Now will they? That's still unknown. And not to blow anyone's mind, but Philips (SL-HDR2) can be in there too at the same time.

09-19-2018, 05:01 PM	#6753
Penton-Man Retired Hollywood Insider Member since:Apr 2007	Follow-up to exclusive heads-up post of August 23, 2018 - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post15446571 https://www.sfgate.com/movies/articl...e-13239763.php

09-19-2018, 08:03 PM	#6754
Penton-Man Retired Hollywood Insider Member since:Apr 2007	^ Next stop –> NZY

09-20-2018, 04:35 PM	#6756
Penton-Man Retired Hollywood Insider Member since:Apr 2007	https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post15461429 A study to better understand the impact of ambient illumination on contrast and shadow detail visibility and to further guide ambient compensation algorithms as touched on in the Addendum of the post above, will be presented by Scott Daly and Robert Wanat on Tuesday Oct. 23 at 4:45 P.M in the San Jose room at the upcoming 2018 SMPTE Annual Tech Conference. It’s titled ‘Black Level Visibility as a Function of Ambient Illumination’ in which investigators used a filtered Dolby Pulsar which enabled black levels as low as 0.0005 nits.

09-20-2018, 04:40 PM	#6757
Penton-Man Retired Hollywood Insider Member since:Apr 2007	Thanks for the movie clapper pic, will post later on today. Gotta run.

09-20-2018, 11:45 PM	#6759
Penton-Man Retired Hollywood Insider Member since:Apr 2007	Note to PeterTHX and Robert Zohn - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post15511046 (and buzzard767 if you happen to be flying by from AVS) - “and the new F-35 Strike Fighter” https://www.sfgate.com/movies/articl...e-13239763.php

09-20-2018, 11:52 PM	#6760
Penton-Man Retired Hollywood Insider Member since:Apr 2007	Since the effect of surround light on detection thresholds based on the Rogers and Carol model to be discussed during a presentation at the upcoming SMPTE 2018 Annual Technical Conference & Exhibition I posted a heads-up to on the last page may be a bit overwhelming to some, a less complex Food for thought: https://www.forbes.com/sites/andream...ompanies-2018/ As a consumer electronics company, one company made it into the top 20 of this ^ Forbes 2018 worldwide list. Panasonic, Sony or LG Electronics?

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